Dingo-obsolete

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Shanks
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Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 09 Sep 2018, 22:15

Now that the dingo can be easily eliminated, I would like at least its cost to be reduced, something like 150 MP-5 fuel, at least so that you can use it to observe or capture sectors faster, effectively, because to be honest as support no longer serves, or at least I feel this, with the new AT units of WM and the PE that in itself has everything to counteract it, so ... what do you say?

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby The New BK Champion » 09 Sep 2018, 22:49

I agree it's pretty countered now

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Sep 2018, 23:15

Yes, I think Dingo shouldn't cost any fuel.. only has Bren LMG which isn't very effective, unlike the Bren Carrier which can load infantry inside it and has Vicker HMG upgrade... So ya, I agree that Dingo should not cost fuel at all now, after adding this new WH AT boys squad.

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby mofetagalactica » 10 Sep 2018, 01:56

Agree agree, a cost reduction would be wise.

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby The New BK Champion » 10 Sep 2018, 08:20

It should still cost fuel, because it's armored.

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MarKr
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MarKr » 10 Sep 2018, 10:06

You ask for price reduction and the justification you give for this is that the GrB squad is making the Dingo obsolete.
GrB accuracy vs Digno is 100%/90%/80%/70% (from short to max range), when the dingo is moving it drops to 75%/67.5%/60%/52.5%.
Damage 150-210

PaK36 accuracy is (was) 100%/85%/75%/65% (when shooting from camo it was 150%/127.5%/112.5%/97.5%), when the Dingo was moving it drops to 80%/68%/60%/52% (from camo 120%/102%/90%/78%).
Damage 240-300 (camo 300 - 375).

Dingo HP: 220

So PaK36 had about 5% less accuracy vs static Dingo. When the Dingo is moving, the hit-chance is the same as it used to be with PaK36. PaK36 could use camo which increased the accuracy by a lot and even without camo it would one-shot Dingo most of the time. However the GrB deals less damage - you can still one-shot it if you trigger the crit but there is a fair chance the Dingo would survive a hit and the GrB cannot boost its damage and accuracy with camo. GrB squad can rotate 360° so you cannot keep circling it and exploit the "set up" time of the AT, but in terms of stats the GrB seems to improve the survival chances of Dingo. So is it really in needed when the GrB is weaker against Dingo than the former PaK36?
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby The New BK Champion » 10 Sep 2018, 11:45

The main difference is that dingo could rush pak and quite effectively destroy whole axis early game. Now with mobile, 360° team this is simply impossible. As people said, single bren gun is too weak to act as "support" weapon, so the only purpose of this unit was rushing axis early game. Now it truly is obsolete, and this has nothing to do with stats and numbers but unit type and behaviour.

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 10 Sep 2018, 11:57

MarKr wrote:You ask for price reduction and the justification you give for this is that the GrB squad is making the Dingo obsolete.
GrB accuracy vs Digno is 100%/90%/80%/70% (from short to max range), when the dingo is moving it drops to 75%/67.5%/60%/52.5%.
Damage 150-210

PaK36 accuracy is (was) 100%/85%/75%/65% (when shooting from camo it was 150%/127.5%/112.5%/97.5%), when the Dingo was moving it drops to 80%/68%/60%/52% (from camo 120%/102%/90%/78%).
Damage 240-300 (camo 300 - 375).

Dingo HP: 220

So PaK36 had about 5% less accuracy vs static Dingo. When the Dingo is moving, the hit-chance is the same as it used to be with PaK36. PaK36 could use camo which increased the accuracy by a lot and even without camo it would one-shot Dingo most of the time. However the GrB deals less damage - you can still one-shot it if you trigger the crit but there is a fair chance the Dingo would survive a hit and the GrB cannot boost its damage and accuracy with camo. GrB squad can rotate 360° so you cannot keep circling it and exploit the "set up" time of the AT, but in terms of stats the GrB seems to improve the survival chances of Dingo. So is it really in needed when the GrB is weaker against Dingo than the former PaK36?




:lol: hahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahha

you can imagine those statistics that you give? + a unit 360 ° + coverage (damage of the dingo towards the enemy units, practically null) + terrain (affects the dingo's mobility) ... then ,you say that the new AT unit of the WM is weaker than the old ??? ... seriously ?? ... and you ask me if it really is necessary to reduce the cost of the dingo ?????, I think you are joking, i can not say anything more

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 10 Sep 2018, 12:05

Here's my list of obsolete units:

PE Inf Halftrack: You'll see it like once in 20 games and it will die before it can exceed its cost ratio in performance.

PE Panzergrenadiers: No point building them again when you finish all the base structures, they are vastly inferior assault grenadiers when you compare them stats wise. They should at least have a cheaper reinforcement cost to serve as a potential unit to recrew your weapons with.

Def Doc 20mm halftrack: 35 fuel for a light vehicle that's worse than a puma. All the other vehicles that def doc gets to replace the puma and stug seem to be inferior as well(compare Marder 1 vs Stug 4), perhaps that's a balancing decision but they really shouldn't be so bad.

Churchill spawnable infantry section: They come with 1 bren and... that's it, yeah nothing else, can't even upgrade them with another bren last I checked which was a year ago. Does anyone ever use this at all? Takes veterancy to get it too, so I wouldn't be surprised a lot of people don't even know churchill has this.

Dingo should become a standard unit for brits, as RE has no good spotter units. Which means RE usually gets screwed over by camouflaged units as it has no good way to spot them. In other words, the only way out of being camo-trapped is charging them with infantry where they think it is. Put it in the support truck, and makes its cost really cheap so it can serve as a spotter(or capper) at least. Or at least some change has to come to give RE a good cost-efficient spotter unit, because lack of a good spotter absolutely kills RE offensive gameplay.

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Sep 2018, 12:11

Markr, you have always over 50% hit chance by vet 0 and max range. Do you really think anyone spends 300 MP and even fuel that is cruicial in tec up and say: "I have a 40% chance to surivive it a brief encounter, lets build it."?

Nope.

In the past games i didnt see any early light vehicle anymore. No jeep or dingo. Just once a bren that was used as a mobile MG platform standing well behind the inf and reaction time.

Generally the early game slowed down. Axis dont risk much bc of Boys. Schwimmwagens stay well behind frienfly infantry to provide fire support in case enemie inf rushes. But generally its too risky because of Boys oneshot power. And allis dont build jeeps and dingos for the same reason or at least arent going anywhere for scouting missions.

MenciusMoldbug wrote:Here's my list of obsolete units:

PE Inf Halftrack: You'll see it like once in 20 games and it will die before it can exceed its cost ratio in performance.

PE Panzergrenadiers: No point building them again when you finish all the base structures, they are vastly inferior assault grenadiers when you compare them stats wise. They should at least have a cheaper reinforcement cost to serve as a potential unit to recrew your weapons with.

Def Doc 20mm halftrack: 35 fuel for a light vehicle that's worse than a puma. All the other vehicles that def doc gets to replace the puma and stug seem to be inferior as well(compare Marder 1 vs Stug 4), perhaps that's a balancing decision but they really shouldn't be so bad.

Churchill spawnable infantry section: They come with 1 bren and... that's it, yeah nothing else, can't even upgrade them with another bren last I checked which was a year ago. Does anyone ever use this at all? Takes veterancy to get it too, so I wouldn't be surprised a lot of people don't even know churchill has this.

Dingo should become a standard unit for brits, as RE has no good spotter units. Which means RE usually gets screwed over by camouflaged units as it has no good way to spot them. In other words, the only way out of being camo-trapped is charging them with infantry where they think it is. Put it in the support truck, and makes its cost really cheap so it can serve as a spotter(or capper) at least. Or at least some change has to come to give RE a good cost-efficient spotter unit, because lack of a good spotter absolutely kills RE offensive gameplay.


Indeed. To be honest ive never ever seen the PE Transport HT with perhaps 1 or 2 exception which has been years ago. There many played HR and had 1 CP to get Luftwaffe inf insta. So they got these two units and rushed arround the field. Thats it. Since then everything has changed so far.

I´d like to add the def doc 28 mm HT. I havent seen it in a very long time.

Stuart is the same. It was rare and got perhaps even more rare. Its overpriced, has a weak gun and its armor cant stand any AT weapon except the 37 mm AT gun.

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Shanks
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 10 Sep 2018, 12:20

MenciusMoldbug wrote: RE has no good spotter units.


I already made a post about this problem, but the dev simply ignored me, but if now the cost of dingo is reduced, at an approximate price of 150 MP-5 fuel, I think this problem would also be solved

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MarKr » 10 Sep 2018, 19:39

Shanks wrote: :lol: hahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahha

you can imagine those statistics that you give? + a unit 360 ° + coverage (damage of the dingo towards the enemy units, practically null) + terrain (affects the dingo's mobility) ... then ,you say that the new AT unit of the WM is weaker than the old ??? ... seriously ?? ... and you ask me if it really is necessary to reduce the cost of the dingo ?????, I think you are joking, i can not say anything more

Jeez, dude...you wrote this:
Shanks wrote:Now that the dingo can be easily eliminated,
(...)
because to be honest as support no longer serves, or at least I feel this, with the new AT units of WM and the PE that in itself has everything to counteract it
You first say Dingo is now "easily eliminated", eliminated means destroyed, and you mention it specificly in conjunction with the new WM squad. So it sounds like it is a damage-related issue.

Then you say it "no longer servers as support". Support is a unit that works in combination with other units and they "support each other" - it would mean that the Dingo would be around your infantry and protect them from e.g. rushes of the enemy. If you drive a lone unit around an AT gun and then kill the crew before it can rotate to take a shot at you, that is harrasing or possibly flanking.

So yeah, I thought you meant that the Dingo is too vulnerable to the new unit. That is why I gave you the numbers - solely in terms of accuracy and damage the new unit is actually weaker against GrB than the old PaK36, pethaps I should have capitalize that I meant the damage and accuracy only. Why don't you just write something like "Dingo can no longer rush Axis early AT units and so it can no longer be used as harrasing unit and its role is now only recon/cap - it could use a price drop." - it is short and clear and agreeable.

Perhaps you read my whole post and noticed that I also said:
MarKr wrote:GrB squad can rotate 360° so you cannot keep circling it and exploit the "set up" time of the AT


Warhawks97 wrote:Markr, you have always over 50% hit chance by vet 0 and max range. Do you really think anyone spends 300 MP and even fuel that is cruicial in tec up and say: "I have a 40% chance to surivive it a brief encounter, lets build it."?
(...)
In the past games i didnt see any early light vehicle anymore. No jeep or dingo. Just once a bren that was used as a mobile MG platform standing well behind the inf and reaction time.
It is NOT that I disagree or anything but out of curiosity - how is it different from the previous versions where WM had PaK36? You knew the opponent would have the PaK36, most likely in camo somewhere and you said to your self "I have 45% chance to survive to surivive a brief encounter and if the PaK is in camo I have 2.5% chance, lets build it."? I mean, if the first shot missed you would kill the PaK crew but with 97.5% chance to hit the Dingo from camo it would have been even bigger gamble.

Shanks wrote:I already made a post about this problem, but the dev simply ignored me, but if now the cost of dingo is reduced, at an approximate price of 150 MP-5 fuel, I think this problem would also be solved
When I discovered BK mod CW had only Lieutenants and Captains as spotters - Dingo had no camo and was a reward unit for Recce, so nobody ever used it. Some time after I had joined the dev team we added the camo and capping upgrades and it still wasn't used simply because Recce was a core unit. Then we made the reward option to be either Dingo or Bren. CW was capable of working without Dingo recon for years, when Dingo became reward for Bren carrier instead of Recce CW got a recon option which it lacked for years but they still need a better recon?
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby The New BK Champion » 10 Sep 2018, 19:53

It is NOT that I disagree or anything but out of curiosity - how is it different from the previous versions where WM had PaK36?

We told you already, when pak's location was known, u had a chance to rush dingo behind it and kill it. 360° squad makes it impossible.

When I discovered BK mod CW had only Lieutenants and Captains as spotters - Dingo had no camo and was a reward unit for Recce, so nobody ever used it. Some time after I had joined the dev team we added the camo and capping upgrades and it still wasn't used simply because Recce was a core unit. Then we made the reward option to be either Dingo or Bren. CW was capable of working without Dingo recon for years, when Dingo became reward for Bren carrier instead of Recce CW got a recon option which it lacked for years but they still need a better recon?


Oh yea so let's leave something broken just because it used to be broken even more.

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MarKr » 10 Sep 2018, 21:01

The New BK Champion wrote:
It is NOT that I disagree or anything but out of curiosity - how is it different from the previous versions where WM had PaK36?

We told you already, when pak's location was known, u had a chance to rush dingo behind it and kill it. 360° squad makes it impossible.
Is it just me, or is this the second time when someone in this topic read the first sentence of my post and started writing a reply without reading the rest? I said:
MarKr wrote:It is NOT that I disagree or anything but out of curiosity - how is it different from the previous versions where WM had PaK36? You knew the opponent would have the PaK36, most likely in camo somewhere and you said to your self "I have 45% chance to surivive a brief encounter and if the PaK is in camo I have 2.5% chance, lets build it."? I mean, if the first shot missed you would kill the PaK crew but with 97.5% chance to hit the Dingo from camo it would have been even bigger gamble.
So does that mean that the PaK36 was used in 90% of the cases without the camo?

The New BK Champion wrote:Oh yea so let's leave something broken just because it used to be broken even more.
That is not what I meant. My point was that the faction was able to work with extremely limited recon in the past, yes team mates often had to provide the recon but it worked. Now the recon options are significcantly better than they used to be and they still need to improve? To what extend? Spotter unit same as US/WM? Or are you talking just about the price drop on current Dingo?
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Tiger1996 » 10 Sep 2018, 21:15

MarKr wrote:Or are you talking just about the price drop on current Dingo?

Yes, just drop the price to 150 MP and 5 fuel or something.

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby The New BK Champion » 10 Sep 2018, 21:15

It's not camoed as often as you would think.

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Sep 2018, 21:21

MarKr wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:Markr, you have always over 50% hit chance by vet 0 and max range. Do you really think anyone spends 300 MP and even fuel that is cruicial in tec up and say: "I have a 40% chance to surivive it a brief encounter, lets build it."?
(...)
In the past games i didnt see any early light vehicle anymore. No jeep or dingo. Just once a bren that was used as a mobile MG platform standing well behind the inf and reaction time.
It is NOT that I disagree or anything but out of curiosity - how is it different from the previous versions where WM had PaK36? You knew the opponent would have the PaK36, most likely in camo somewhere and you said to your self "I have 45% chance to survive to surivive a brief encounter and if the PaK is in camo I have 2.5% chance, lets build it."? I mean, if the first shot missed you would kill the PaK crew but with 97.5% chance to hit the Dingo from camo it would have been even bigger gamble.



Well. First you knew that AT guns will be positioned at smart locations with little obstacles or bottleknecks or important areas. You could scout arround that area and harrass (like preventing exposed inf to cap).

Now it can be anywhere and a recconassaince mission can end just like that. You can suddenly face the "run arround WH mob" and your dingo is insta dead. So you are simply not sending it anywhere. Also Paks were slow and efficient in ambush. But they were still quite stationary and defensive and volks kept usually arround it. Also once they failed you had plenty time to run. Now you are in a combat (mixed forces), that AT rifle squad rushes up at the edge of the fog of war and bam, just when you give a move order for the dingo you take the shot already. Thats something that didnt happen with AT gun. The advance was more slow and pretty much only possible with 81 mm mortar and puma.
Now you can kill a vehicle, push more and retreat with little risk in a way that has never been possible. There is actually no more "lets keep defensive or push slightly bc the AT gun is important". Now its more like "we go anywhere, get sandbags up anywhere and annihilate anything at distant and keep pushing." Flanking risk? 0


The Dingos only role now might be spotting and caping. But spending 370 MP to to either of that is overpriced isnt it?
Combat support? 0. The Bren is like a vcoh MG. Also lets imagine a inf battle. You just cant "join that battle" bc of the rifle that keeps everything away at any location (like you cant come arround a wall or bushes and flank them)
Now you might say: "Same goes for CW". Well, scout cars and schwimmwagens can be placed so far back that they just prevent enemie SMG squads to close in on your own inf. They can do it bc the MG´s of them have the damage to do that. Put a Dingo like 20-30 range behind your inf to prevent an inf squad rushing your inf? Forget it, that single burst wont harm anyone. The Bren carrier can, at least after getting the MG upgrade.


And Harrassing? Well, thats not possible anymore... obviously.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 10 Sep 2018, 21:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Shanks
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 10 Sep 2018, 21:23

MarKr wrote:So yeah, I thought you meant that the Dingo is too vulnerable to the new unit. That is why I gave you the numbers - solely in terms of accuracy and damage the new unit is actually weaker against GrB than the old PaK36, pethaps I should have capitalize that I meant the damage and accuracy only. Why don't you just write something like "Dingo can no longer rush Axis early AT units and so it can no longer be used as harrasing unit and its role is now only recon/cap - it could use a price drop." - it is short and clear and agreeable.



from the beginning I was clear, the title says it all, "dingo-obsolete", so I do not know what you mean when you say, short, clear and pleasant, from the beginning it was like that...but then you said:"So is it really in needed when the GrB is weaker against Dingo than the former PaK36?"...At this point, I understood this: "Is it really necessary to reduce the price of the dingo, when the new AT unit of the WM is weaker than the previous one?...Then I asked you some questions, that you answered to yourself, that was clear, short and agreeable


Note:if it is that by some miracle it is possible to reduce the cost of dingo, and now that I think about it better, it would be good if it is 220 MP-5 of fuel, to avoid the spam of this unit, which could be lethal vs. PE in early game ( standard resources)

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby The New BK Champion » 11 Sep 2018, 01:11

I suggest to make this unit cost the same as it is until capitan or armor truck tier is reached when it would serve only as armored capper or scout. This way we can avoid too much spammability in early game and make it more appealing for late game uses.

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 11 Sep 2018, 01:22

Yes, it's a better idea, after the Capitan of armor truck ,could reduce the price to 150 MP-5 fuel,it could work

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Sep 2018, 12:33

As long as it costs any fuel there wont be too much of a spam. Perhaps it could cost 240 and 10 fuel in early game (i mean its kind of an armored jeep just with weaker MG or supposed weaker MG and far less powerfull than a PE scout car) and later arround 170 and 5 fuel when captain is deployed?

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MarKr » 11 Sep 2018, 19:28

One more thing that came to my mind - the Dingo became less useful with 5.1.5 and the first reaction is to drop the price so that it is turned into a cheaper scout/cap unit.
Would there be any chanc to go the other way? Make it more useful, maybe by giving it some ability? Hawks said that it cannot be used properly as an infantry support due to poor MG performance so perhaps it could get some ability which would for some time lower the burst lenght but provide an accuracy and suppression buff so that it could be used as an infantry support to prevent rushes? Or something along that line that would extend Dingo's capabilities in some way.

I am not saying that the price reduction is a bad way to make Dingo more useful, I'm just wondering if it is the only way - sometimes it is better to expand the capabilities of a unit rather than narrow them down.

Once again - I'm just trying to get some brainstorming going, if no other viable ideas come up the price reduction can be made, so no need to get into offense mode on me :D
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 11 Sep 2018, 21:06

I think that giving it a new skill would only complicate the balance again (which would imply new debates and headaches), on the other hand, to reduce the cost of dingo, after the captain comes, it would not have a negative impact, i think it would be better to go for the safe side

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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MarKr » 11 Sep 2018, 23:07

The impact of any ability would depend on how it is implemented and balancing can be required no matter what change you make - even the price drops might in the end need some rebalancing.

Also, as there were mentions about insufficient firepower of Dingo - if this:
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Became upgradable to this:
Image
Or perhaps this:
Image
(don't mind the colored lines)
would it change anything?

I would be more for the BOYS variant - with Vickers it would be one less reason to ever pick Bren carrier instead.
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Tiger1996 » 11 Sep 2018, 23:11

I don't think that this is a good idea.
They just need the Dingo cheaper so it can help RE doc better in late game with scouting.. no boys AT rifle, no Vickers!
No need to complicate things...


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