Thoughts on the Luft Doctrine

[RoyalCompanion]

I played BK mod 4 or 5 years ago when I think Xalibur was still the mod leader, and about a month and a half ago I recently started playing bk again. I love the game and it's increased realism, many doctrine choices and of course that beautiful zoom. Right out of the gate I'll admit I only have about 300 or so games in at this point and there is much I have to learn. I play U.S.A. almost exclusively for most of my games.

Recently I have been playing 1 v 1's more often trying to get a more intense pvp experience. I have noticed that The most played doctrine I face is PE's Luftwaffe doctrine and with some players it's always Luft doctrine. Not saying that is a bad thing they are certainly able to play what they enjoy but, I feel like the best reason at the moment to play Luft is their is no glaring weakness to the doc. They have the best infantry in the game, excellent emplacements, (88) excellent mortar halftrack, IMHO the best tank-destroyer (hetzer) access to panthers (probably best all round tank chassis) and of course all of the bombing/strafing runs you could want.

I played a game the other day using armour and I admit I was almost ready to rage-quit. sneaky peaky hetzers everywhere one-shotting jacksons and shermans, the mg on top murdering any inf that came close enough to do harm, then it moved away at cruising speed to murder another one of my hapless tanks.

At one point I was thinking about individual changes like fallschirmjägers being more costly to call in or adding more Command Points needed before the panther is available etc but the more I look at it is just the synergy of everything together that makes them great.

I am not saying that LUFT doc is op. I just feel like they have more options than the other docs. A swiss army knife with more tools and that takes what is a great doc and makes it seemingly impossible to catch if off guard. Is there something I am missing here? Few doctrines can get away with only using 4 units over and over again with positive results.

What is the vibe form other players at the moment is Luft performing very well or am I not playing against them well enough?

[mofetagalactica]

I played BK mod 4 or 5 years ago when I think Xalibur was still the mod leader, and about a month and a half ago I recently started playing bk again. I love the game and it's increased realism, many doctrine choices and of course that beautiful zoom. Right out of the gate I'll admit I only have about 300 or so games in at this point and there is much I have to learn. I play U.S.A. almost exclusively for most of my games.

Recently I have been playing 1 v 1's more often trying to get a more intense pvp experience. I have noticed that The most played doctrine I face is PE's Luftwaffe doctrine and with some players it's always Luft doctrine. Not saying that is a bad thing they are certainly able to play what they enjoy but, I feel like the best reason at the moment to play Luft is their is no glaring weakness to the doc. They have the best infantry in the game, excellent emplacements, (88) excellent mortar halftrack, IMHO the best tank-destroyer (hetzer) access to panthers (probably best all round tank chassis) and of course all of the bombing/strafing runs you could want.

I played a game the other day using armour and I admit I was almost ready to rage-quit. sneaky peaky hetzers everywhere one-shotting jacksons and shermans, the mg on top murdering any inf that came close enough to do harm, then it moved away at cruising speed to murder another one of my hapless tanks.

At one point I was thinking about individual changes like fallschirmjägers being more costly to call in or adding more Command Points needed before the panther is available etc but the more I look at it is just the synergy of everything together that makes them great.

I am not saying that LUFT doc is op. I just feel like they have more options than the other docs. A swiss army knife with more tools and that takes what is a great doc and makes it seemingly impossible to catch if off guard. Is there something I am missing here? Few doctrines can get away with only using 4 units over and over again with positive results.

What is the vibe form other players at the moment is Luft performing very well or am I not playing against them well enough?

Don't use armor doctrine its the worst of all, luft is op, if you're a good brit player go for it and pick royal arty its op, if you want to win as USA you will have to learn to micro your infantry better than the enemy, so infantry doc will be your best pick or just airbone.

[Krieger Blitzer]

They often say that Bk Mod isn't designed for 1v1 games.. while I actually think that 1v1 games should never be completely ignored, otherwise the game will be very boring. Yet, I think that even currently, Armor doc is far superior to Luft doc, but only as long as someone would effectively support you with necessary AA cover, because without the Luft airplanes then I believe Armor doc simply sweeps the floor with Luft doctrine, fair and square.

in a 1v1 scenario however, u don't have anyone to support you with AA units, so it will be very difficult beating Luft with Armor doc in that capacity.
Nonetheless, in team-fights... Whenever the US Armor doc is supported correctly with enough AA units, then Luft would nearly have no chance.

All in all, this recent trend of people complaining about Luft doc is a bit worrying to be honest.. since I believe that Luft doc at the moment is the only Axis doc that is truly capable of imposing a real competition in team-fights. Weakening this Luft doc.. will only result in Axis becoming screwed.

That's unless some changes are considered all over the board, not only on Axis side but also for Allied doctrines... I have had a perspective about that in the past; viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2670 which I think might be worth the try, that's in case the devs would be open for that.

[Shanks]

I played BK mod 4 or 5 years ago when I think Xalibur was still the mod leader, and about a month and a half ago I recently started playing bk again. I love the game and it's increased realism, many doctrine choices and of course that beautiful zoom. Right out of the gate I'll admit I only have about 300 or so games in at this point and there is much I have to learn. I play U.S.A. almost exclusively for most of my games.

Recently I have been playing 1 v 1's more often trying to get a more intense pvp experience. I have noticed that The most played doctrine I face is PE's Luftwaffe doctrine and with some players it's always Luft doctrine. Not saying that is a bad thing they are certainly able to play what they enjoy but, I feel like the best reason at the moment to play Luft is their is no glaring weakness to the doc. They have the best infantry in the game, excellent emplacements, (88) excellent mortar halftrack, IMHO the best tank-destroyer (hetzer) access to panthers (probably best all round tank chassis) and of course all of the bombing/strafing runs you could want.

I played a game the other day using armour and I admit I was almost ready to rage-quit. sneaky peaky hetzers everywhere one-shotting jacksons and shermans, the mg on top murdering any inf that came close enough to do harm, then it moved away at cruising speed to murder another one of my hapless tanks.

At one point I was thinking about individual changes like fallschirmjägers being more costly to call in or adding more Command Points needed before the panther is available etc but the more I look at it is just the synergy of everything together that makes them great.

I am not saying that LUFT doc is op. I just feel like they have more options than the other docs. A swiss army knife with more tools and that takes what is a great doc and makes it seemingly impossible to catch if off guard. Is there something I am missing here? Few doctrines can get away with only using 4 units over and over again with positive results.

What is the vibe form other players at the moment is Luft performing very well or am I not playing against them well enough?

raf, inf, airb, real arty doc, are doctrines that can counteract luft doc, also armor doc, but you need to know how to play this game very well, the next game try scout or sherman m4 (when you enable the unit of mass production it is very useful ) + sniper + infantry that the captain call (7 units with free BAR) + hellcat vs hetzer and infantry of luft (HE) + motorized mortar 81 mm-it improves the supply, it is very useful, to have a greater production of fuel and MP, also ... it could work if you use it well ... I was playing vs you, and his problem is that he loses his temper many times and loses all his units in suicide attacks, or you tend to neglect your infantry, if you are a little more attentive, you can beat even to wurf or tiger1996 ...I hope I've helped

[Warhawks97]

I played BK mod 4 or 5 years ago when I think Xalibur was still the mod leader, and about a month and a half ago I recently started playing bk again. I love the game and it's increased realism, many doctrine choices and of course that beautiful zoom. Right out of the gate I'll admit I only have about 300 or so games in at this point and there is much I have to learn. I play U.S.A. almost exclusively for most of my games.

Recently I have been playing 1 v 1's more often trying to get a more intense pvp experience. I have noticed that The most played doctrine I face is PE's Luftwaffe doctrine and with some players it's always Luft doctrine. Not saying that is a bad thing they are certainly able to play what they enjoy but, I feel like the best reason at the moment to play Luft is their is no glaring weakness to the doc. They have the best infantry in the game, excellent emplacements, (88) excellent mortar halftrack, IMHO the best tank-destroyer (hetzer) access to panthers (probably best all round tank chassis) and of course all of the bombing/strafing runs you could want.

I played a game the other day using armour and I admit I was almost ready to rage-quit. sneaky peaky hetzers everywhere one-shotting jacksons and shermans, the mg on top murdering any inf that came close enough to do harm, then it moved away at cruising speed to murder another one of my hapless tanks.

At one point I was thinking about individual changes like fallschirmjägers being more costly to call in or adding more Command Points needed before the panther is available etc but the more I look at it is just the synergy of everything together that makes them great.

I am not saying that LUFT doc is op. I just feel like they have more options than the other docs. A swiss army knife with more tools and that takes what is a great doc and makes it seemingly impossible to catch if off guard. Is there something I am missing here? Few doctrines can get away with only using 4 units over and over again with positive results.

What is the vibe form other players at the moment is Luft performing very well or am I not playing against them well enough?

The Hetzer shouldnt have Flank speed lmao. No or only very few units should have it but the hetzer does not belong to it. Why? bc it has a capable gun, two ambushed shots and a frontal armor that gives you almost a 50/50 chance to bounce off US 76 mm guns from max range (Fun fact: Hetzers armor is slightly worse than those of Tank IV H/J with skirts while the hetzer should have a slight advantage here, anyway). Means it doesnt rely on Flank speed to be deadly or to survive.... the armor bounces most threats except 17 pdr, but two ambushed shots will make a short job of any 17 pdr equiped tank anway. The flank speed leads to abuses where you just run over AT guns, destroying a mortar halftrack or other valuable support units and make a flank speed retreat. Its what made coh2 players raging out in forums over years bc there the panther made a "Blitzkrieg retreat".
Units should be either rely on good first strike ambush actions/firepower, mobility, armor. Perhaps combining two things. The Hetzer got it all.
The Hetzer would be the defensive tool, the Panther the optimal support for your offense.


And Luft inf cant be made more expensive i would say. They were once used to cost more in call in, but less in reinforce cost to prevent long term "reinforce spam" while getting richer. Now they are cheaper to all in but cost more to reinforce. That way its easier to get a combined force, but if you inflict constant losses to them you can bleed them out.


My personal opinion: I think AB is the best choice in the long term. The quad mounts protect you against airplanes very well while their 360 degeree arc of fire prevent any suprise landings near your forward spawn etc. The ammount of boosted 101st for cheap reinforce cost can survive long battles by frontline reinforcment while your 101st HQ squad boosts them in late game and have a sniper. Snipers are the best to bleed luft out. But take huge care of sd2 bombs.
The Panther might be problematic but you have a hellcat, and in late game several m10 when you use your supply yard to drop upkeep cost. The panther has no top mounted MG and you get handheld AT weapons for free.
Also the supply drop does not only gives you ammo and fuel, it also provides you HMG and small mortar. Use cheap pios and place the HMG´s just everywhere. Thats an often unused or overseen opportunity as most see it as too micro intense.
The call in mortar strike from 101st and observers can be great. The observers can be used to set ambushes as well. If you see a gebirgs going into position behind green cover and using their superior ranged combat skills and weapons, just call the mortar strike to clear them out.
The pack howitzers provides you also with at least a small ammount of arty if necessary to bombard emplacmants constantly. Luft has no arty so far except 88 VT which requires 88 and reg 5 + three different unlocks.
The mentioned supply drops drop the 60 mm mortars that seem usless at first, but you can use them as well to lay down smoke on emplacments. Then you can close in and use a satchel charge to blow any emplacment up. If the AB would have the jacks A, then this doc would perhaps be a real "Luftwaffe Killer"

Thing is thats a lot to consider and lots of micro managment. This are options but its hard to master it in real combat situations. Constant slow advance of gebirgs, covered by Hetzer and mortar HT combined with sd2 can literally push all enemies into death.

[RoyalCompanion]

Well I was not exactly looking for specific things to make luft doc weaker, but more the realization that luft was very well put together as a whole making it very dificult to combat them. I think the hetzer speed boost has been the single most frustrating thing to deal with. These tanks destroyers are perfect. Two of them in ambush will stop a rush of 4 or 5 shermans no problem and if you break off and retreat they can then speed up and chase after you catching you unaware. I dont mind them being awesome in defense, but it feels wrong to see them being used as an assault gun charging at the enemy after they pop out of cover. Thats what the stug was for.

[MarKr]

The flank speed on Hetzers (and possibly the Hetzer distribution among PE docs) is another thing we are about to address.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hetzer distribution among PE docs, together with Firefly/Achilles distribution among CW docs.. as you mentioned on Discord, are so far good news.

Nonetheless, flank speed abilities need to be either totally removed from all tanks in the game... Or least to say, not just from Hetzers.

One could argue that Hetzers have flank speed just like Achilles.. both of them are TDs, but Achilles rely on HE rounds to protect itself from inf.
Hetzers on the other hand are relying on the flank speed ability and their armor, in order to escape from infantry!

Thus, i would say... Flank speed would better be removed from all tanks, or none at all.. any light vehicles with flank speed could keep it though.

[Shanks]

eliminate the speed of flanking would be something really stupid, without offending anyone ... royalcompanion: the hetzer is not difficult to shoot down, as I said before, your problem is your way of moving, the luft doc or the current hetzer, not are the problem!

[mofetagalactica]

One could argue that Hetzers have flank speed just like Achilles.. both of them are TDs, but Achilles rely on HE rounds to protect itself from inf.
Hetzers on the other hand are relying on the flank speed ability and their armor, in order to escape from infantry!

PRRRRRRRRRRR PFFF HAHAHA, Dont you just lie to yourself you know very well what happen when you manually shoot to the infantry with the hetzer they can easily 1v1 an inf squad with his unlimited MG magazine and also a few of the cannon shoots hitting inf.

Same is with the Panther D, having that MG top dosnt make that much difference when shooting inf with the cannon they're still more relaiable than a achilles shooting at inf.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Panther.D doesn't have a top MG gunner, and Hetzer MG shoots rice.

[mofetagalactica]

Panther.D doesn't have a top MG gunner, and Hetzer MG shoots rice.

Seems like rice work then

[kwok]

I vehemetly disagree with most people on this thread, I think luft are ridiculously poorly designed in that they are too strong. There’s a goddamn reason why 90% of the pe players right now are playing luft. And you get full fucking games of two luft docs in a 2v2, sometimes 3 in larger games. But I am waiting to see how new patch will roll out before swinging out with complaints and suggestions. I feel like PE is gonna get a pretty hard nerf and things can change pretty quick