Sandbags

[Warhawks97]

Why has only US armor doc sandbags?

What about giving sandbags to all US docs? i mean skirts are also in all german doctrines and depending on tank type and not doctrine. Maybe the Tank IV´s for Terror doc could also get skirts.


That could also help a bit to restore the quantity/quality balance in armor as all us docs would build more tanks then.

[V13dweller]

If all Panzer IV Ausf F2's got the Armour Upgrade to 80mm + skirts, then I'd agree.

[Warhawks97]

If all Panzer IV Ausf F2's got the Armour Upgrade to 80mm + skirts, then I'd agree.

50 to 80 mm is probably a much greater buff then skirts and sandbags. They would be like the Tank IH H and J´s which are a way better then 76 shermans with skirts. Another option would be to Replace the F´s with G and J

[MarKr]

I think the idea was that Armor doc is focused on tanks so they get some extra upgrades to make their tanks more survivable. I guess it provides diversity of a kind. Also Infantry doctrine is meant to focus on and fight with infantry (+vehicles or tanks as support), so infantry upgrades should take priority and Airborne is also infantry-centered so the resources are rather spend there than on upgrades for tanks.
Also the first upgrade benefits all Shermas variants (there are about 5) available for Armor doc and the second only M4E3s and E8s - other doctrines (espetially AB) don't have access to all these tanks so the value of the upgrade is lower for them.

I'd say that these upgrades are rightfuly placed to Armor doc and should stay there and only there .

[Warhawks97]

I think the idea was that Armor doc is focused on tanks so they get some extra upgrades to make their tanks more survivable. I guess it provides diversity of a kind. Also Infantry doctrine is meant to focus on and fight with infantry (+vehicles or tanks as support), so infantry upgrades should take priority and Airborne is also infantry-centered so the resources are rather spend there than on upgrades for tanks.
Also the first upgrade benefits all Shermas variants (there are about 5) available for Armor doc and the second only M4E3s and E8s - other doctrines (espetially AB) don't have access to all these tanks so the value of the upgrade is lower for them.

I'd say that these upgrades are rightfuly placed to Armor doc and should stay there and only there .

Focused on infantry... Just saying Jumbo.... Shermans with sandbags would more sense than jumbo in that logic...might be so but still allied Inf divisions often outnumbered even axis armor divisions.... Thing is that later in game allied inf with silly zooks cant do much more than die when all The Panther G´s, Tigers etc rolling out. So even in inf doc effective armor is neccessary. Also as sample Terror doc.... now actually based on Grens but still in late game Panther G´s and walking stuka are the main units. Inf should play less important offensive role. The inf doc strength then is also to have tons of rifles available for constant pushing and territory capturing but also putting trenches and emplacments. Also nice artillery support. And honestly Rangers just shouldnt be there in such large numbers and cheap inf upgrade only for rifle squads and engineers but not Ranger. Every assault of US inf divisions was usually carried by many shermans.

So actually axis had been thos that had less armor but therefore powefull anti armor weapons for inf. In autumn 44 like 30% of allied tank losses were regarded to Panzerfaust fired from ambushes in hedgrows etc. Means exactly because axis can deal so well against armor with hendheld AT, PAK stuff and TH´s with big guns and armor which cant be killed by zooks or tanks allied to need many TH´s able to surround them but thats impossible as long as just one allied doc builds tanks while all axis docs field heavy stuff. A late game could look like that inf and maybe AB doc would field shermans and M10/18 Tankuster while armor doc swaps over to E8 and Jackson. Axis can share cost much better. Not seldomly i keep spamming Tank IV´s and Ostwind with BK doc while my terror mate (usually sukin.kot) gets Panthers in numbers later. Like this i do imagine for allied: Shermans and M10´s keep in use by inf and AB doc and armor can use the res for powerfull e8 groups with Jacks support and being not forced to maintain normal sherman production. This way armor doc would become special while 75 shermans and M10 would belong simply to basic allied equipment. And so sandbags wouldnt be reliable in armor doc only.


Also the prob is that axis do pretty often outnumber allied tanks or at least allied tankmasses wont stay against the many heavy axis tanks unless Jumbos and pershing are used. Its because the effective fuel income in a 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 is higher for axis than for allied. why? sample: 3 vs 3 game. Fuel income for booth sides lets say + 25. For axis means that the effective income to field usefull tanks is 75 because all 3 docs can use the fuel to get Panthers, strong TH´s etc. For allied its only 25 (maybe abit more) because only the armor doc builds tanks. RAF and inf doc dont have such great use for fuel and will mostly run on 350 fuel without using it. This is a prob in teamfights.

[MarKr]

Focused on infantry... Just saying Jumbo.... Shermans with sandbags would more sense than jumbo in that logic...

Infantry doc gets Jumbo with 75mm gun - it is a bit more accurate than normal Sherman 75, but otherwise penetration, damage, TT...everything is the same so it is actually just M4 which can take more damage (or maybe has some extra ability? don't know right now).
Armor doc has Jumbo as call-in but this jumbo is 76mm.

Also the prob is that axis will pretty often outnumber allied tanks or at least allied tankmasses wont stay against the many heavy axis tanks unless Jumbos and pershing are used. Its because the effective fuel income in a 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 is higher for axis than for allied? why? sample: 3 vs 3 game. Fuel income for booth sides lets say + 25. For axis means that the effective income to field usefull tanks is 75 because all 3 docs can use the fuel to get Panthers, strong TH´s etc. For allied its only 25 (maybe abit more) because only the armor doc builds tanks. RAF and inf doc dont have such great use for fuel and will mostly run on 350 fuel without using it. This is a prob in teamfights.

This seems to be more of a problem of the game concept since Axis have always been more all-rounded (means some of kinda good infantry, some of kinda good tanks in all docs) while Allies are more focused on certain field of battle (more infantry but less tanks etc...).

[Warhawks97]

1. I know that. But Jumbo was the rarest of all shermans. Booth Jumbos are in my opinion something that would be in armor doc. I just wanted point out that sandbags would make more sense as simple and quickly done field improvisation as a special sherman version in a inf doc. Sandbags for all and special shermans to special armor doc.

2. From doctrine names yes. Its a bit weird as US docs can be easily compared to real divisions (armored, infantry etc). Axis docs look more like a mix of divisions. But why isnt it allowed that the US docs can be more versatile? why should inf only fight with rangers? Even if it can be considered as inf divisions it would be more realistic and not wrong for teambalance and gameplay if those docs would also use by far more tanks. Every US inf division had shermans, tankbusters and sometimes even Jacksons. Shermans were basic in every US inf division while rangers were not.

And this game concept is actually stupid gameplay and for balance in teamfights. Its this what im mentioning since a long time. Due to this concept the effectively used ammo and fuel on axis side is much higher as those of allied simply that some allied docs often run at either 350 fuel or 600 ammo and using just one of these ressources massively and thus lacking on one while other is at full storage. This is not the case on axis side as the fuel cost for tanks and ammo cost for arty are well shared over all players.

So it wouldnt hurt when this concept would be changed a bit. It basically means to have shermans and some TH´s a bit more worthwile in others than only armor doc by having some fixed gun stats and sandbags such as skirts are very normal and common and thus relieving/supporting the armor doc a bit by producing tanks so that this can focus more on special shermans such as jumbos, e8 and jacks.