Panzer IVD and E

[Fall Barbarossa]

I have a question concerning the Pzkpfw.IVD and E. For the period in which the game is supposed to take place (1944/1945), wouldn't it be more realistic to replace these models with Panzer IIIM or N? I just think that by this time most (if not all) Panzer IVDs and Es would've been upgraded to a higher caliber gun or made into a StuGIV. Please don't take this as criticism, I really like the mod and think it's great. I'm just putting forward an idea.

[Warhawks97]

I have a question concerning the Pzkpfw.IVD and E. For the period in which the game is supposed to take place (1944/1945), wouldn't it be more realistic to replace these models with Panzer IIIM or N? I just think that by this time most (if not all) Panzer IVDs and Es would've been upgraded to a higher caliber gun or made into a StuGIV. Please don't take this as criticism, I really like the mod and think it's great. I'm just putting forward an idea.

yeah, we had that point pretty often. The short barrel Tank IV´s were out of service so far beside that the D is from 40 with just 229 models build. Stug III´s would make sense as most used axis armored vehicle. The short barrel tank IV´s have also broken armor stats. They had just 25-30 (max 50 for E) mm armor which is as much as Puma has. However, normal shermans never pen them and even the 76 shermans have trouble sometimes. This units should be replaced/fixed..

[Jagdpanther]

Realism was never a factor took in consideration by the developpers.

[MarKr]

I think these Panzer IVs are the way they are because the are meant to be counterpart to Sherman 75mm - anti-infantry medium tank. If it was a vulnerable as it should be, nobody would buy for the price because you'd be better off with HTs or Pumas. Even if it were cheaper HTs or Pumas would be better because of their speed.

Panzer III M/N would theoretically be possible. Are there available and animated models? Also how would the new unit perform? Would it fill the role of PZ IV D/E? If yes, it is a question if Wolf would support it since the only difference (gameplay-wise) would be visual.

[Warhawks97]

I think these Panzer IVs are the way they are because the are meant to be counterpart to Sherman 75mm - anti-infantry medium tank. If it was a vulnerable as it should be, nobody would buy for the price because you'd be better off with HTs or Pumas. Even if it were cheaper HTs or Pumas would be better because of their speed.

Panzer III M/N would theoretically be possible. Are there available and animated models? Also how would the new unit perform? Would it fill the role of PZ IV D/E? If yes, it is a question if Wolf would support it since the only difference (gameplay-wise) would be visual.

Nobody really uses this anti inf Tank IV. Every normal axis tank is already very good against inf so there is no real need for the stubby Tank IV´s. They are used very very seldomly. Stugs would make more sense.

[V13dweller]

The reason I don't use them, is because for some reason, their HE shells have less range than rifles, and about the same range as At infantry, so they are basically useless.

[Warhawks97]

The reason I don't use them, is because for some reason, their HE shells have less range than rifles, and about the same range as At infantry, so they are basically useless.

there is one moment of usefullness. Right when i unlocked tank IV mass production i use them with bk doc. Ostwind, Tank IV D amd stug III. But thats all and i build one, max 2. But when tank IV H is unlocked as well already i go for them. The D is good vs weapon crews and emplacments.

[Panzerblitz1]

wouldn't it be more realistic to replace these models with Panzer IIIM or N?


There is no Panzer III model available.

[Fall Barbarossa]

I've seen this model used in the Europe at War mod. There is a model for Panzer IIIN and for Panzer IIIJ.

I don't use the Panzer IVD and E because they're weird to be in a 1944/1945 game, but the AI loves them and if I'm playing a match with/against the AI, I see tons of these tanks rolling around.

My reason for bringing this topic up is not one of usefulness, you could say that the panzer IIIN/J/L/M were quite useless this late war, but more about historical accuracy. As Warhawks stated, there were only 229 IVDs built and even fewer Es and that StuGs being available in their place would make more sense since there were over 10000 built and they fought in infantry, panzer, panzergrenadier and SS divisions.

But, I recommended the Panzer III as it would add variety and keep the game more realistic.

[Jagdpanther]

I've seen this model used in the Europe at War mod. There is a model for Panzer IIIN and for Panzer IIIJ.

I don't use the Panzer IVD and E because they're weird to be in a 1944/1945 game, but the AI loves them and if I'm playing a match with/against the AI, I see tons of these tanks rolling around.

My reason for bringing this topic up is not one of usefulness, you could say that the panzer IIIN/J/L/M were quite useless this late war, but more about historical accuracy. As Warhawks stated, there were only 229 IVDs built and even fewer Es and that StuGs being available in their place would make more sense since there were over 10000 built and they fought in infantry, panzer, panzergrenadier and SS divisions.

But, I recommended the Panzer III as it would add variety and keep the game more realistic.

You probably have no idea how many examples like this are in bk, read this post by Warhawks97, it pretty much sums it up (http://blitzkrieg-mod.de/board/topic/49 ... t/?p=61755)

[Fall Barbarossa]

I've seen this model used in the Europe at War mod. There is a model for Panzer IIIN and for Panzer IIIJ.

I don't use the Panzer IVD and E because they're weird to be in a 1944/1945 game, but the AI loves them and if I'm playing a match with/against the AI, I see tons of these tanks rolling around.

My reason for bringing this topic up is not one of usefulness, you could say that the panzer IIIN/J/L/M were quite useless this late war, but more about historical accuracy. As Warhawks stated, there were only 229 IVDs built and even fewer Es and that StuGs being available in their place would make more sense since there were over 10000 built and they fought in infantry, panzer, panzergrenadier and SS divisions.

But, I recommended the Panzer III as it would add variety and keep the game more realistic.

You probably have no idea how many examples like this are in bk, read this post by Warhawks97, it pretty much sums it up (http://blitzkrieg-mod.de/board/topic/49 ... t/?p=61755)

No, actually I am aware of how many historical inaccuracies exist in this mod. Anyone who researches any of these units could too. My suggestion is aimed at the most cringing historical inaccuracies (ie the Panzer IVD/E) and ones that can easily be changed without upsetting anything too much.

If I could have the game the way I wanted it, it would look much different. But, as a historical player I set certain limitations on myself in order to keep the game in some ways accurate for me (not using certain units). Unfortunately, I can't stop the AI from building what they want, so my suggestion is aimed at making those units more correct. Yes, I agree that the StuG III should be in every doctrine. We can't however argue that the Jagdtiger and Pershing should not be in the game at all since they did historically exist and were used, albeit in small numbers, I guess that's where unit limits come in, maybe there should be more limits on more units?

If I could have the game the way I wanted, Wehrmach would be Heer and the 3 doctrines would be 'Infanterie' or 'Volksgrenadier', 'Panzergrenadier', and Panzer with each doctrine only using units that were found in typical divisions of those types. Panzer Elite would be Luftwaffe/SS and would have the 3 doctrines as 'Fallschimjager', 'SS-Panzer', and 'Gebirgsjager' or 'Luftwaffe-Feld-Division' and again, each doctrine only using units that would have historically been in those divisions. But I digress.

Anyway, main point being, that my suggestion is about the 'eyesores', the things which make the game in some ways unplayable. Do I think it's a great mod? Yes, I do and I really appreciate the devs putting the effort in. Thank you devs!

[Jagdpanther]

This mod was not designed to be played vs AI and the puma for example is a much bigger historical inaccuracy since only 101 were built and you find them in pretty much every WE game, not the same thing you can say about the Pz IV D/E

[Fall Barbarossa]

you find the pzIVD/E in nearly every game as well. WH except defensive and PE in all doctrines (although this may be including the IVF also).

Ok, so Puma is also not accurate, that I understand. It could be replaced with sdkfz 231, of which there is a model.

[Jagdpanther]

"you find the pzIVD/E in nearly every game as well" yes you do, in every vs AI game.

OMG you want to fix a historical inaccuracy but you create another, sdkfz 231 and Pz III were obsolete by 1944/1945.

[Warhawks97]

you find the pzIVD/E in nearly every game as well. WH except defensive and PE in all doctrines (although this may be including the IVF also).

Ok, so Puma is also not accurate, that I understand. It could be replaced with sdkfz 231, of which there is a model.

Puma not accurate? oO. I just said that this word was used for all models and not only the one with 50 mm which was just the first that came into action. The 231 is outdated and the 234 is the successor for the 231. Its maybe just wrong to find the 234 in every PE and WE doc.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/n ... 4_Puma.php

for people who wants further infos. One of my favorit pages.

[Fall Barbarossa]

Puma not accurate? oO. I just said that this word was used for all models and not only the one with 50 mm which was just the first that came into action. The 231 is outdated and the 234 is the successor for the 231. Its maybe just wrong to find the 234 in every PE and WE doc.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/n ... 4_Puma.php

for people who wants further infos. One of my favorit pages.[/quote]

Well, the Puma is accurate, but as other users stated there weren't so many and even though the puma was supposed to be the replacement of the earlier armored cars, they never came fully into existence.

Anyway, this thread is not about the Puma. If anyone can give a good reason for the Panzer IVD and Panzer IVE being in this mod, I'm listening.

[Butterkeks]

Well here is on:

Balancing. Simply balancing.

Many people want an exaggeratet realism in this mod an don't care about balancing, this is a real problem. Mostly these ideas come from Axis fanboys because e.g. the M10 actually couldn't even penetrate a Tiger.

But to keep the game playable and to make it fun playing both sides you have to sacrifice some realism in order to get a good balance. In case of Panzer IV D and E it is simply that models were available and they make a good counterpart to the M4 Sherman. I remember People asking for the Panzer III for years, but there never was a model.
Now there is a model, but just removing a imo pretty good balanced unit because you find it a bit historically incorrect? Sorry but please not.

If you look closer then you'll see that this game is full of incorrectnes, here some examples:

- WM Elefant: Wasn't on West Front.
- Tiger I: Engines do work. Actually most Tigers were killed because the engine broke and the tank crew had to blow it up themselves.
- KCH units: Now removed, but for a long time the most historically inaccurate unit ever.
- Zimmerit: Never used by 1944 because tankcrews feared that it cout blow up the tank when hit (nonsense, but well^^) Also it was against magnetic sticky bombs, not to make it more resistant.
- Super Pershing: Never used in WWII
- M10 and Hellcat couldn't penetrate a Tiger or Panther.
- Zookas and Schrecks were actually equal.
- Ostwind: only like 45 (or sth like that) ever made, actually nearly never used
- 6 pounder could kill a Tiger

These are just some things I wrote down directly from my mind, but there is a hell of a lot more

But as I said, I don't care. Balancing is in such a Multiplayer game way more important than realism or historically accuracy.

[Fall Barbarossa]

Again, yes I know there are a lot of historical inaccuracies. I just don't see a reason for the PzIVD/E at all and I find it surprising that anybody could. I mean, you said it yourself "it is simply that models were available". That's a BS excuse to have something in the game.

If we don't give a damn about the accuracy in a WWII game, then why don't we go play Star Craft?