Hand grenades

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|7th|Nighthawk
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Hand grenades

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 05 Apr 2018, 08:22

Hello everyone,

yesterday I played a game with sami bosal against two friends of mine and it went on for hours because we're all too incompetent to create a decent attack. Axis had placed a Luftwaffe 88 in an obnoxious position, however hidden behind buildings so that it was hard to reach for arty but left a line of approach for infantry to deal with it. I managed to get the CQC squad into grenade range and threw 4x2 grenades into the 88 pit - I lowered their health a bit and also structural one but not one of the crew died. I noticed this a lot lately and I have to wonder whether it's intentional that if you "outplay" an entrenched gun like that as allies that you cannot deal with it in time. British mortar pits e.g. get one shotted by axis grenades with a 95% chance, I'd guess but allied grenades, be they US or Brits, have huge issues to deal with anything that is not a MG42 emplacement. What are the differences in the grenades except throwing range? Allied grenades work fine against infantry in cover or in buildings, so I don't have a problem with that performance and it's only logical that the axis ones have longer range. They range from no damage at all to squad wipe but the entrenched guns cannot be taken out with them with a reasonable chance.

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sami bosal
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby sami bosal » 05 Apr 2018, 11:24

that game went about 2:30 hours and then i left cause opponents also seems to be left
most hilarious game

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sami bosal
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby sami bosal » 05 Apr 2018, 11:25

one thing i noticed that achilies are too op even without using hit&run ability.

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MarKr
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby MarKr » 05 Apr 2018, 12:16

It is connected to the AoE of a grenade, size of emplacement and system of damage dealing in the engine.

In short: If you want to kill emplacement crew with a grenade, there are two options:
1) Catching the crew in the AoE of grenade's explosion
2) Triggering a "critical hit"

Add 1) This means that you need to trow the grenade in such way that the crew (visible dudes) is physically in the AoE of the grenade - then they can get direct damage and if their HP is low enough, they will be killed. This is why grenades are more effective when used vs CW mortar pits - the mortar pit is smaller and so when a grenade lands somewhere around the emplacement, the crew takes damage because they are in AoE. On the other hand e.g. AT emplacements are noticeably bigger and when you attack if from front, the grenade ususally lands on the front part of the empalcement and the crew is outside the AoE, thus cannot die this way.

Add 2) This is connected to criticals which can be confusing so in a nutshell: If the emplacement has between 60% and 100% of its maximum HP, grenades have 30% chance to clear the emplacement (kill all crew) no matter where the grenade lands, as long as the emplacement is in the AoE of the grenade (some grenades have a bit better chance e.g. the bundle nades). If the emplacement has between 60% and 5% of its maximum HP, the chance to clear the emplacement is 60%. If the HP is between 5% and 0% the emplacement gets destroyed.

It used to be set to 0% chance to kill the crew when the HP is between 100% and 60% and then 100% to kill the crew when the HP was between 60% and 5%. This meant that as long as emplacements had at least 60% of its HP, grenades would never kill the crew by triggering the critical hit (only chance was the option 1) - AoE)but once the HP of an emplacement dropped below the 60% treshold, every grenade would always kill all the crew, which was weird. So we set it this way so that there is always a chance to kill the crew.
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|7th|Nighthawk
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 05 Apr 2018, 13:56

Ah alright. Yes, it makes more sense even though it is harder to predict. Are there any significant differences in grenades except throwing range though? I noticed that the gammon bombs seem to be utterly worthless but they explode on impact e.g. The Stielgranaten all fly further and with the fragmentation mantlet upgrade, they either have bigger AoE or damage, I don't know. How do they compare though? The Flak-Vierling e.g. seems to be very resistant to grenades as well even though it is a very small emplacement. Admittedly I used only British grenades against it so far but I've been countered successfully with a single Stielgranate. I think warhawks mentioned something about the Allied grenades having more damage and the Axis one having bigger AoE? The Mills bomb should have shorter range than the Mk2 but a bigger damage/AoE in compensation for that since it was a massive hand grenade.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Apr 2018, 14:17

|7th|Nighthawk wrote: I think warhawks mentioned something about the Allied grenades having more damage and the Axis one having bigger AoE? The Mills bomb should have shorter range than the Mk2 but a bigger damage/AoE in compensation for that since it was a massive hand grenade.


Nah, allied have the AoE advantage. They have 7 AoE.

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|7th|Nighthawk
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 05 Apr 2018, 14:25

What about the rest?

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MarKr
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby MarKr » 05 Apr 2018, 14:35

There might be (not sure though) some difference in terms of damage for regular grenades but if there are some, it will not be very significant I think.
Then there are special grenades, you already mentioned the Axis one with fragmentation sleeve (in Def doc) - it has bigger AoE. Then Axis have the Bundle grenades - these deal way more damage but I think they have shorter range.
Combat engineers in Infantry doctrine have a special grenade (don't remember name now) which is not very effective v soldiers in the open (thus also not vs emplacements) but has increased effect vs soldiers in buildings.
CW Gammon bombs are mainly anti-vehicle devices, can be used vs infantry but with limited effect.
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Redgaarden
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby Redgaarden » 05 Apr 2018, 17:14

Combat engineers in Infantry doctrine have a special grenade (don't remember name now) which is not very effective v soldiers in the open (thus also not vs emplacements) but has increased effect vs soldiers in buildings.


Haven't tried them vs emplacements, but the definelty work againt people in regular buildings. They do no damage to soldiers in Bunkers, dont know if that is intentional or not. But I feel like regular nades are a little bit lacking in clearing buildings. But then again, stromtroopers have 3 different nades, Regular, Bundle and Assault. I would think assault would be the best.

But as allied you kinda dont want to deal with emplacement with grenades. You have an invisible SMG squad that can one hit kill emplacement with satchel charges (Infilitration Rangers) And you have all airborne troops that can trhow satchels. Armor doesn't need anti buildings as its intended to be countered by those. As Brits you have two artillery in two doctriens and the last one RAF is intended to lose vs emplacements.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

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Tiger1996
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Apr 2018, 09:00

sami bosal wrote:one thing i noticed that achilies are too op even without using hit&run ability.

I don't even know why this ability was named "hit and run" as I believe it should have been rather called "stay and hit" or something! :P
Anyways, with the upcoming TD bonus standardization that MarKr has implemented on the next patch v5.1.4 then I think no TD is OP anymore...

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|7th|Nighthawk
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 06 Apr 2018, 11:30

It sure will be interesting to see both the US and GB M10s' performance against long barreled Panzer IV.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Apr 2018, 11:44

They will be all fine, now they have reload time advantage.. since that Pz4 now takes longer to reload.

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|7th|Nighthawk
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Re: Hand grenades

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 06 Apr 2018, 11:54

Yes, but they still get oneshotted while I doubt they can do the same.


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