Sd.Kfz. 251/7 with 28 mm (for all doc of WM)

[Shanks]

Hello to all, I wanted to make a suggestion to add this vehicle that is in the def doctrine of WM, (good vs light vehicles, as the rece), in all the doctrines of WM, sincerely, lately I see myself in the need of use "PE" to counteract vehicles like the RECE, and I really think that adding this unit to all WM doctrines, would not cause an imbalance, because 50 mm is sometimes not very reliable ... as we already know, the allies have good AT units in early game, like for example the 57 mm (USA) or the boy rifle (British), so why not grant this vehicle for all the WM doctrines ?? ... even, the price could be modified ( cheaper --- 300 MP + 25 F)...What do you guys think?

[kwok]

I think this is a good idea purely because I'm tired of the recce meta. Despite the fuel bump, it is still absolutely optimized that CW players rush the recce. It also forces WM players (if there is no PE player) to use the 50mm pak gun instead of the leig18 because there is no reasonable counter to the recce at the T2 stage. Having another option to face the recce will add variety to the T1 to T2 transition phase of the game.

[Redgaarden]

Then def doc only one without special halftrack?

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I want to add that PE 28mm Sdkfz. is dramatically overpriced, it costs 320 MP but has extremely low damage and survivability, basicaly it has no other use than countering Recce (any other vehicle will destroy it in head to head encounter, moreover even Recce can kill it with a couple of bursts from a close distance), on the other hand we have US 57mm truck which costs 250 mp and serves as an ultimate vehicle butcher. The cost of Sdkfz should be reduced to 230 MP and 10 fuel in my opinion, as this unit has very limited range of potential use + fragile as glass.

[sami bosal]

i have a question
pe 37mm halftrack is better in my opinion cause it has more abilities, more damage per shot, and good vs inf too. only it has less penitration compared to 28mm car. then why players choose 28mm car instead of 37mm ht and 37mm ht is less expensive too.

[|7th|Nighthawk]

I've heard that the 37mm has trouble to deal with the Recce, at least the standard one does and I take it that the mobile one won't do much better (although you never know, Flak 38 hint hint). I also think that the rocket ability only comes at a later stage so that it will be too late and expensive to kill a Recce.

[Warhawks97]

I want to add that PE 28mm Sdkfz. is dramatically overpriced, it costs 320 MP but has extremely low damage and survivability, basicaly it has no other use than countering Recce (any other vehicle will destroy it in head to head encounter, moreover even Recce can kill it with a couple of bursts from a close distance), on the other hand we have US 57mm truck which costs 250 mp and serves as an ultimate vehicle butcher. The cost of Sdkfz should be reduced to 230 MP and 10 fuel in my opinion, as this unit has very limited range of potential use + fragile as glass.

We must keep in mind that the cost of a unit is connected with the time of its avaiability. Thats why bren carrier and stuff costing over 300 MP.
The vehicle is fast and available very early. It can, even though vulnerable, destroy scotts and AA tanks in 2-3 hits. So in skilled hands it can be a nice tool in countering everything that bothers your infantry (eg when playing luftwaffe vs nasty scotts).

I wouldnt mint a cost drop bc 320 is a bunch of MP. But 230 would create a new meta, of not even a hard counter to scotts and stuff and being spammed all the time.
But changes should be made carefully. It might can make bren carriers quickly obsolet again.


Also, answering this question:

i have a question
pe 37mm halftrack is better in my opinion cause it has more abilities, more damage per shot, and good vs inf too. only it has less penitration compared to 28mm car. then why players choose 28mm car instead of 37mm ht and 37mm ht is less expensive too.

The 28 mm has much higher pen than the 37 mm. The 28 wont bounce from recce like 37 often does. The 28 also penetrates the sherman quite well. Just its damage is low. But it can finish off shermans when they are on retreat. Its thus a nice counter to scotts and and aa tanks. Just dont let this vehicle take any fire. Use its speed.


@Kwok: Yes, i agree. But the ability to build AT should then be a def doc special. Also idk if the leig becomes a def doc only tool anyway. But still i agree.

[Commissar]

I want to add that PE 28mm Sdkfz. is dramatically overpriced, it costs 320 MP but has extremely low damage and survivability, basicaly it has no other use than countering Recce (any other vehicle will destroy it in head to head encounter, moreover even Recce can kill it with a couple of bursts from a close distance), on the other hand we have US 57mm truck which costs 250 mp and serves as an ultimate vehicle butcher. The cost of Sdkfz should be reduced to 230 MP and 10 fuel in my opinion, as this unit has very limited range of potential use + fragile as glass.

Agree

[Jalis]

i have a question
pe 37mm halftrack is better in my opinion cause it has more abilities.

Unlike the pak 38 50 mm which is overpowered (or overcheated) the pak 36 is quite accurately coded at bk. Roughly it is a rather bad gun especially if you compare it to its allies counterpart. chance to score a successful hit on a stuart armour are not very good for this gun.

perhaps raise the german 37 mm over its historical performance may be considered as a viable alternative to deal with your recce problem.

The 28 also penetrates the sherman quite well.

from a realistic point of view it is a bullshit. More strange is justification for such ludicrous feature in game is a clue.

[Jalis]

i have a question
pe 37mm halftrack is better in my opinion cause it has more abilities.

Unlike the pak 38 50 mm which is overpowered (or overcheated) the pak 36 is quite accurately coded at bk. Roughly it is a rather bad gun especially if you compare it to its allies counterpart. chance to score a successful hit on a stuart armour are not very good for this gun.

perhaps raise the german 37 mm over its historical performance may be considered as a viable alternative to deal with your recce problem.

The 28 also penetrates the sherman quite well.

from a realistic point of view it is a bullshit. More strange, justification for such ludicrous feature in game is a clue.

[Kr0noZ]

Nope:

Code: Select all

Armour penetration table for 28mm Panzerbüchse 41
Ammunition:     APCNR-T projectile 2.8 cm Pzgr. 41
Distance, m    Penetration (Meet angle 60°)         Penetration (Meet angle 90°)
100m                52mm – 69mm                           75mm
300m                46mm    
400m                                                               40mm
500m                40mm – 52mm    

Code: Select all

Armour penetration table for 37mm PaK 36
Ammunition:     3,7cm Pzgr. 40
Range            Penetration (Meet angle 60°)
100 m            64 mm
500 m            31 mm
1000 m            22 mm
1500 m            20 mm

As you can see, the PaK36 technically has more range, but within identical range the 28mm has better penetration.
This is caused by the 28mm being a squeeze bore round, which gets compressed when fired from 28mm to 20mm.
For an apples to apples comparison I went with the tungsten core rounds for both guns, the PaK 36 in game isn't even using that by default; whereas the Panzerbüchse IS, due to only having that round or a frag round available at all (and in game it's NOT using fragmentation rounds by default, so it has to be the AT round...).
Edit: Sorry for the slightly misaligned table, this thing hates tab stops apparently xD

[Jalis]

Kronoz ; I m a bit surprised.

I understand what you means and it is well explained.

However I m not sure it is suitable to compare -- apple with apple -- both is game and historical context.

Especially with low caliber, stats have to be display with usual ammo, so pzgr 39 for the pak 36. According your distances it would be around 35 mm/ 29 mm / 22 mm / 20 mm.

Due to shortage on about all strategic metals I even doubt pzgr 40 was still produced for the pak 36 after 1942.

For the pzb 41, I have nothing to say. You re right and anyway this gun technology allow it to fire only specific rounds.

[Kr0noZ]

Well, my point is that the PaK 36 actually performed a lot worse than the Panzerbüchse 41, however the PaK was much more common.
So the fact that the PaK sucks vs Stuart and Panzerbüchse doesn't, but Panzerbüchse is also more expensive kind of makes sense in this context.

As you can guess, the PzGr. 39 for the Pak 36 has less penetration so the difference becomes even more substantial.
You are also right about the PzGr. 40 for the Pak 36 no longer being made, but it was actually replaced by a short range hollow charge round much like the one for the PaK 38.

[Jalis]

Understand.

Like said, historically the pak 36 was not exceptional (euphemism).

On my side I had problem with it, and quickly understood it was hard to balance according its low historical performance. You ask for it the same price than for the US M6, even not close, especially if you are already in a low cost weapon way. If it is to deal with early jeep halftrack or armoured car such as M20 or greyhound it is not a problem.
However with upper tiers vehicle it is an other matter. and you have to switch to pak 38, when allies can still rely on their 37 mm.

What I suggested ; cheating the german 37 mm, it simply what I did. I didn't took this decision for the pak itself but to save light vehicles using it.

For some reasons I m not a big fan of Stielgranate 41. It sound me like a gadget that become miraculously efficient in game.

The recce itself have all to cause problem. It is the combo of armour and weapons coming for two different tiers. It is a dangerous thing to include early game. It is disbalanced if it appears too early because of its armour, and useless if you delay it because of its weapon weakness.
You would be in more peaceful situation in keeping the Daimler scout car and removing the recce of the game. (an iconoclast position for lot of people I presume, especially recce abusers)

[MEFISTO]

Super RACE! early game KING TIGER! jajajja,