Riflemen the new Fjr?

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Tor
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Tor » 16 Feb 2018, 15:55

kwok wrote:Little known fact. Bikes have bigger reveal radius than schwimms which is why I use the bike.

Another annoying thing about axis players: they almost NEVER account for the recce, I always have to specifically remind them every game “get recce counters”. Nope they get a grenadiers to match their volks and my instead (talk about over stacking the same capabilities). Even after the recce fuel bump patch, axis players are given more time to deal with the recce, enough to fit their extra grenadiers in but nooooo, still won’t get. Rather get a second grenadiers.

Another fun note: playing bigger maps makes artying targets like mg42s harder. Not that hard to make enemies waste ammo firing at nothing.

More fun arguments! Terror doc is not an arty doc, yet it has the most arty capability across all wm doctrines. It has an offmap, a cheap non-cp costing option, and a mobile SP power level killing option. Whereas the second place doctrine only has a more expensive fuel costing and cp costing field howitzer that costs the same amount to fire as a nebel, and off map option, and an option entirely on a different cp path from the rest of the artillery options. Terror has the best wm arty options as well as the most formidable tanks of all tiers.

Don’t make me go on about the stug cuz it is one of my favorite tanks. It hasn’t been touch for balancing for sooo long. They are natural Achilles counters by cost because the Achilles will be underutilizing its power to a stug and still come out in a similar match up scenario as if the Achilles faced a high tier tank.

Fun fact, one minesweeper costs less than a British anti-inf mine.


Bike even worse than schimm, its can't reverse.
To find blitz sneaky infantry you can use safely M-20, but for finding INF sneaky rangers, you need always loose your bike or schimm?!) 1 second enough to kill bike with this rangers.
Its like you find shark underwater.

Terror like arty doc is shit, single 2 sec shoot, or annoying not stop arty spamming, which one can broke tracks.
Everything cost like a hell, what point to have it, if you can't shoot?
Firestorm great example, worst of map arty, no damage to tanks with 200 ammo cost, but vs infantry, its not better than inf arty call.

Brits have enough time to mine central point, move back 3 metres and wait you, and you have no idea, he just wait you, or this point already with mine.
So you probably removing mine under fire right? cool...

Comparing stug-4 and achilles, incomparable! stug-4 bad vs churchill and pershing, but achilles, good vs everything except KT, JT.
M-10 can oneshot panthers with hit and run, hetzer good vs pershing and churchils.
So Stug worst here, to be compareble this guys, in WH you need wait tiger with that big cost.

Tor
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Tor » 16 Feb 2018, 16:04

MarKr wrote:
As for Tor:
"Axis need more spotters"
- as kwok already said: Motorbike has bigger spotting radius than Schwimm...almost double iirc so you can use that.

"even MG 42 vs dingo nothing"
- unlike jeeps/schwimms Dingos cost fuel and are bullet proof, that is why you cannot kill them with bullets, though the "AP burst" ability on HMG42 should still kill it

"I can't use MG-42 because monster truck"
- I can still remember people saying "remove the early AT buff vs Trucks, it is too much and who would abuse that anyway?"...so we did but some fuckers *cough*Lehr*cough* again abuse it.

"FCking cromwells, with free HE, why free HE?"
- the basic ammo (no HE) is weak vs any type of tank and Cromwells can be killed easily even by 50mm guns, 75mm L48 can make a short work of Cromwells and 75mm L48 is mounted on almost everything in Axis arsenal - from halftracks, over TDs such as Marders I and III, Hetzers, JPIVs all the way to medium tanks PIV J/H StuGs and I don't know what else. Also Cromwells need no upgrade for HE but switching between HE and AP still costs ammo iirc.

"


Motorbike and schwimm BOTH BAD, how you should find, if its die so easyli, i am not about start game, i am about midle and late.

MG-42 with AP don't work vs pro at all.

Monster truck i mean its can run over and oneshot MG-42, tiger1996 have video with that.

Isnt cromwell have sherman 75mm gun? why sherman and PZ-4E should buy HE, and cromwell no?

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Redgaarden
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Redgaarden » 16 Feb 2018, 16:57

Isnt cromwell have sherman 75mm gun? why sherman and PZ-4E should buy HE, and cromwell no?


Cromwell has the worst HE of all tanks. Dont know if that justifies anything, jsut wanted to point it out.

Bike even worse than schimm, its can't reverse.
To find blitz sneaky infantry you can use safely M-20, but for finding INF sneaky rangers, you need always loose your bike or schimm?!) 1 second enough to kill bike with this rangers.
Its like you find shark underwater.


Spotters like aufklaere and kettns are good enough for stopping them from sneaking past your lines. And paying 200 manpower to spot hidden units is way better than having your tanks getting destoryed, no matter what you push forward it will die. So it's your job to have enough firepower to kill whatever it finds, that way you always get good engagements. And even if you dont kill them, they still cost a shiton to reinforce and you pushed them back.

OK, so current issues mentioned here:
1) Riflemen might be overperforming
- I would try lowering accuracy by a few % points at all ranges, this should lower the damage output


They are extremely hard to keep alive late game, reawrding but hard. I dont think their close range or long range should go down, only their max range accuracy.

Comparing stug-4 and achilles, incomparable! stug-4 bad vs churchill and pershing, but achilles, good vs everything except KT, JT.
M-10 can oneshot panthers with hit and run, hetzer good vs pershing and churchils.
So Stug worst here, to be compareble this guys, in WH you need wait tiger with that big cost.


STUG is far better than Achilles the time you can field it. since they both can do the same job but stug can just do it better. And on the pro level, pz 4/stug are better than tigers/panthers when against shermans. You are correct that M-10, hetzer and achilles are better at killing big tanks, but stug is better at killign smaller ones.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

Tor
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Location: Saint-Peterburg

Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Tor » 16 Feb 2018, 17:50

Redgaarden wrote:
Isnt cromwell have sherman 75mm gun? why sherman and PZ-4E should buy HE, and cromwell no?


Cromwell has the worst HE of all tanks. Dont know if that justifies anything, jsut wanted to point it out.

Bike even worse than schimm, its can't reverse.
To find blitz sneaky infantry you can use safely M-20, but for finding INF sneaky rangers, you need always loose your bike or schimm?!) 1 second enough to kill bike with this rangers.
Its like you find shark underwater.


Spotters like aufklaere and kettns are good enough for stopping them from sneaking past your lines. And paying 200 manpower to spot hidden units is way better than having your tanks getting destoryed, no matter what you push forward it will die. So it's your job to have enough firepower to kill whatever it finds, that way you always get good engagements. And even if you dont kill them, they still cost a shiton to reinforce and you pushed them back.

OK, so current issues mentioned here:
1) Riflemen might be overperforming
- I would try lowering accuracy by a few % points at all ranges, this should lower the damage output


They are extremely hard to keep alive late game, reawrding but hard. I dont think their close range or long range should go down, only their max range accuracy.

Comparing stug-4 and achilles, incomparable! stug-4 bad vs churchill and pershing, but achilles, good vs everything except KT, JT.
M-10 can oneshot panthers with hit and run, hetzer good vs pershing and churchils.
So Stug worst here, to be compareble this guys, in WH you need wait tiger with that big cost.


STUG is far better than Achilles the time you can field it. since they both can do the same job but stug can just do it better. And on the pro level, pz 4/stug are better than tigers/panthers when against shermans. You are correct that M-10, hetzer and achilles are better at killing big tanks, but stug is better at killign smaller ones.


Cromwell should have worse HE that other, because its have omg speed, with good he and this speed, its imbalanced like hell.

Not agree, why other have option like M-20 and recce? its better than bike 10 times, with litle worse cost.
Its can take 37mm shot, its can take bazooka, imune to SMG and rifles!! did you read this? immune to most infantry in game.
And infatry is biggest damage dealer in this game.

Stug far better than achilles? and better vs infantry? wtf!? achilles have HE just like stug and helcat...

And what you have later? again stug? its bad... you need tiger, if you don't have fuel just because lose midle, suck! all other can buy new TD.

Even a def L70A i think worse than hetzer, strange balance in blitz.
And hidden m 10 +-=M36 ,why i should buy M36? M-10 with double cost... someone buying M36?

120MM Axis mortar, why shooting cost more than brits 107? yeah its have longer ranger, but its don't work at all, most times its die fast and without ability to recover, in same time, 107mm have much longer life, probably because axis have only wespe to kill it without recover, but allies have much more.

Again, thats why terror bad arty doc, its good idea spam 107, because Wurfaremmen eat all ammo to kill this, its good deal.

120 cost more, arty cost less... axis build 120 one time in match.

Allies it's like gay, nigger, son of prostitute, everything okay for them, no one speaking about them.
Ok i got it, i am only one, no more writing.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Tiger1996 » 16 Feb 2018, 18:15

Tor wrote:M-10 can oneshot panthers with hit and run

Yes, this ability will be removed anyway as MarKr once mentioned.

Tor wrote:Monster truck i mean its can run over and oneshot MG-42, tiger1996 have video with that.

Yes, the devs already know about this! MarKr also tried to fix it on the last patch by disallowing CW trucks from crushing MGs and Mortars (same as Puma, Greyhound and Jeeps) but looks like it didn't work. Yet, I think they will try to find a solution to this on the next patch though...

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Warhawks97
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Feb 2018, 23:16

MarKr wrote:
Henny wrote:These lads cost 255MP but they can rape assault grenadiers and grens that cost 350 mp +, how does this make sense? By the time you have 2x grens, they field 3 riflemen at the same time. My grens were shooting at these guys in red cover and they just ate that shit for breakfast. (...)
[

kwok wrote:While I don't agree the the magnitude of Henny's complaint, I agree that rifles are a tad too strong right now. (...) They kill faster and do not suppress (I'd wager the net avg damage dealt is higher than originally wanted). I'd probably suggest a harder accuracy nerf and maybe even the slightest suppression increase to make up for it.


Tiger1996 wrote:Riflemen might be a little bit over the top at the moment, however... I honestly think they are just fine now and don't need any further tweaking.


Redgaarden wrote:(...)But they are alot better in numbers now compared to before. Since their dmg output is high which can mitigate their low hp, making them more support oriented which is what infantry should be.


What i understand is:

1. enemie got 3 rifles untill i get grens. My answer to this: I dont buy expensive inf when enemie has largely more in numbers except my own are boosted already by something. At first i get hard counters which there is puma and volks spam, stug or whatever.
2. Rifles are too healthy
3. The Garands are quite powerfull but not so much that a tweak is necessary at first. Balance issues get perhaps solved while making changes elsewhere



@Red or who suggested "max range changes":"Max range" describes pretty much 50% of rifles total range in BK:

@all: This stug/Tiger/Achilles talks are so usless. You always have to keep more in mind. The stug is so devestating and good bc its so good as counter to almost all allied armor. Esspecially stug I with vet 1 and ambush. It cost no cp and comes very early. It has armor able to stand medium AT guns to some degree. Tiger is also not "a must have". I´ve never ever got them in pvp and if then just for fun as finisher. Stugs and hetzers are much better when dealing with shermans etc. Its also hard for brits to counter stug cost effective. I mean every counter to it cost more than the stug itself basically with exception of medium AT. So whenever they want to engage a stug they must field something more expensive and at the risk to get killed by stug. US can get less risky stuff like M10, bazooka squad or what else.

So you must see it from all sides. Personally i fight brits just as US often fights axis. With cheaper stuff rather than going for the most expensive.

Also do you know how you can overcome defenses meant to tackle tigers? Yes, with schwimmwagen bike or krad. You wont believe how good these are to reveal heavy AT guns or M10´s. You guys should test Bike or schwimm together with Panther. Its usually even better than getting two panthers.

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Henny
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Henny » 05 Mar 2018, 00:27

I urge mod's to reconsider the riflemen stats, they are currently IMBA, nobody buys rangers anymore, its all about 2x riflemen squads with 2x bar and captain call in riflemen squad with bar aswell. What happens when you combine 6x bars, 13x M1 Garands + Captain bonus and recent riflemen buff? Absolute death. Vet 3 Riflemen squad making mince meat of vet 1wehrmacht grenadiers/ vet 2 assault grens.
Watman and Autraymond have left the game.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Mar 2018, 01:58

It sounds very familiar to me. Wait, back then when rangers couldnt hit shit. Volks with lmg (and officer) ate them as breakfast. And that happend over years. Same as you can (or could) shred any SAS vet 0/1 with just volks. lmg and officer.

I am not sure but 850 MP investment only in infantry that cant harm any vehicle bigger than a schwimmwagen. Dont you think there is a possible counter except one on one grens? I mean for that cost you get puma and mortar and a volks squad.

Do i have you in steam? Would you allow me to watch your stream? Or upload any replay?

Ive been watching replays and and streams from various players. I saw that they have got quite usefull. But never really saw such scenarios.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Redgaarden » 05 Mar 2018, 08:32

two vet 2-3 riflemen with 4 bars and captin support can barely trade cost efficent vs falls. And rangers are alot better than rifles, are they not? Rifles fall off late game when they get squadwiped by single explosivies.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

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MarKr
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby MarKr » 05 Mar 2018, 09:45

I would like to see some replays that demostrate the issue too.
Image


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