Riflemen the new Fjr?

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Henny
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Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Henny » 12 Feb 2018, 19:14

These lads cost 255MP but they can rape assault grenadiers and grens that cost 350 mp +, how does this make sense? By the time you have 2x grens, they field 3 riflemen at the same time. My grens were shooting at these guys in red cover and they just ate that shit for breakfast. If you can absorb kar98 7.92 rifle shots, sprint towards your enemy in green cover, and then unload on them somehow without suffering a scratch, something needs to be done

Edit: I urge mod's to reconsider the riflemen stats, they are currently IMBA, nobody buys rangers anymore, its all about 2x riflemen squads with 2x bar and captain call in riflemen squad with bar aswell. What happens when you combine 6x bars, 13x M1 Garands + Captain bonus and recent riflemen buff? Absolute death. Vet 1 Riflemen squads suppressing in 0.5 seconds and making mince meat of vet 1wehrmacht grenadiers/ vet 2 assault grens that are SUPPORTED by vehicles and possibly mg42. Riflemen are the new Knight's cross holders. Heed my word.
Last edited by Henny on 05 Mar 2018, 04:13, edited 5 times in total.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Feb 2018, 20:39

Henny wrote:These lads cost 255MP but they can rape assault grenadiers and grens that cost 350 mp +, how does this make sense?


How do you use them? The M1 Garand is working differently compared to bolt action rifles. Before they were simply worse than those, now they cant be compared anymore. M1 is a semi rifle with high rof and low accuracy (for rifle squads). K98 and bolt action in general more accurate but lower rof.


By the time you have 2x grens, they field 3 riflemen at the same time.


This is the new philosophy of rifles. They get stronger when increasing in numbers. Its called fire supperiority. So what you describe is just what the devs intended how rifles shall work. Put them 1 vs 1 against grens at distant combat with cover and grens will win easily.

My grens were shooting at these guys in red cover and they just ate that shit for breakfas.
If you can absorb kar98 7.92 rifle shots, sprint towards your enemy in green cover, and then unload on them somehow without suffering a scratch, something needs to be done


The rifle squads durability hasnt been changed. They are as healthy und vulnerable as always.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby kwok » 13 Feb 2018, 07:55

While I don't agree the the magnitude of Henny's complaint, I agree that rifles are a tad too strong right now. Playing with the rifles more, I do feel theire "overwhelming fire superiority" doesn't fit the intent. They kill faster and do not suppress (I'd wager the net avg damage dealt is higher than originally wanted). I'd probably suggest a harder accuracy nerf and maybe even the slightest suppression increase to make up for it. Hopefully this fits the "new philosophy of rifles".

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby MarKr » 13 Feb 2018, 17:52

I am not saying that there will be no further tweaks but what Hawks says is pretty much true.

In "one squad vs one squad" combat Riflemen will lose to Grenadiers, Riflemen can beat Volks but even there the chances are more in favor of Volks. But the main thing is the distance - Kar98s are more accurate at distance and that is where you want to fight. Garands of Riflemen at distance shoot fast but have very hard time hitting anything, especially if the target is in cover. Also the Garands have lower boosts when they shoot at enemies that are in the open (no cover). So your best bet is to keep distance and fight from cover. If they destroy your cover (e.g. with rifle nade or something) move to another cover and stay there. Don't try to rush Garands - this might work in the case that you have some shot-blocking object between you and Riflemen but if the Riflemen have a clear shot at you during the whole distance-closing maneuver, your troops are likely to die, on the other hand if Riflemen try to rush you, you have the upper hand - they need to move out of cover at that point your Kar98s get substantial accuracy buffs and Riflemen (since they shoot on the move) get accuracy nerf which will result in them getting rekt easily.

The accuracy could be dropped a bit more but I would like to avoid adding suppression to Garands because in the game there is already ton of stuff that can suppress your infantry in notime and adding this ability to the very basic US infantry would not make the situation any better, I think...though we could try it for the upcoming beta and we would see the results.
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby kwok » 13 Feb 2018, 21:11

Not trying to deny the facts of stats, but I think also the part that makes it frustrating is the meta of long range fights is pretty much don’t do long range fights. The time it takes to down a unit from long range with small arms (unless you’re gebirgs lazer soldiers) takes so long that other viable weapons makes the tactic obsolete. For example, the close in distance time is only say 1s. How many rifles can a volks kill within 1 second before the remaining surviving rifles get right in their face? Maybe 1, 2 if lucky. In a 4 rifles vs 6 volks close range scenario it’s still a coin flip. I think this is what henny is getting at. So maybe the solution isn’t tweaking garands? I dunno I’m just tossing ideas.

You are probably entirely right about the stats but it doesn’t “feel” like the intended effect. It just “feels” like rifles got a buff cuz the net affect is they DO kill faster.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Feb 2018, 22:06

its funny. In the games ive played i never felt the rifles are any sort of issue. I had more issues with jeeps that prevent my volks from going from cover to cover, taking many shots while also killing schwimm 1 vs 1.

Also rifles take down schwimm much faster as volks the jeep.

So from my perspective the main issue why i struggled vs US was bc the jeep lived longer and was more dangerous to my volks as my schwimm to their rifles.

Volks+ schwimm is weaker than rifles+jeep. But the issue is for me more asymetric.

For the first time ever i felt that the garand finally works and that they are not just dump shit. And we have pros and ons now. Each have an upper hand in certain situations.

Also i had good chances when playing more defensively. My schwimm covered my volks and i focused fire on either jeep or rifles. But i kept the rifles at distance.

After that first clash it had been possible to throw out more volks squads by reinforcing them easier. Less upkeep and lower reinforce cost.

So at first you might get overwhelmed when playing too aggressively. But when there is a stable line of schwimm, volks and perhaps a at gun you can make a decent push back when fielding more volks.


So whats the points now:

1. Issue is asymetric (volks/schwimm vs jeep/rifles)
2. Axis players have perhaps been used to be quite aggressive. Stay at range, combine schwimm with volks and use best possible cover.
3. Rifles and Volks have both their strenght (instead as before where volks were simply better in all regards)


What to keep in mind as well:
1. Rifles need to be played in a usually uncasual way. Something BK players never really did. Spamming one unit type in order to become superior. That has major drawbacks. If you spam rifles you might end up in facing a HMG 42 or a PE player (teamplays) suddenly rushes your side.
2. Rifles cost more. The build cost are about same but upkeep is higher and they cost 3 MP more per man than volks.
3. After successfull defending WH can make major push backs. Esspecially the early 81 mm mortar is more than enough for a good comeback.
4. The 81 mm mortar and 20 mm Puma gives you the upper hand for a while when game swaps towards mid game.


Possible solutions:
1. Tune jeep instead so the asymetric balance would be slightly better.
2. Volks can purchase 2 MP 40 for 25 ammo right away.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Tiger1996 » 13 Feb 2018, 22:33

Riflemen might be a little bit over the top at the moment, however... I honestly think they are just fine now and don't need any further tweaking.

Warhawks97 wrote:2. Volks can purchase 2 MP 40 for 25 ammo right away.

Totally agreed here...
Never understood why Volks need to pay 50 ammo for 4 MP40s but are never able to purchase just 2 for 25 ammo like Riflemen with Grease SMGs.
As I also don't see a reason why the MP40 requires escalating to 2nd tier for Volks! Despite that the Grease is available right away.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Jalis » 13 Feb 2018, 22:53

Warhawks97 wrote:2. Volks can purchase 2 MP 40 for 25 ammo right away.


it is something I made a long time ago now, simply to allows players a mixt lmg + smg without wasting ammo.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby kwok » 13 Feb 2018, 23:53

I 100% agree with warhawk’s Jeep assessment. That has to be one of the most annoying meta’s right now, not because in inbalanced but because it’s SUCH an obviously “best” opening. So early game just becomes the same game over and over again no matter what map. Imagine watching chess games with only the same openings. It gets boring and no longer personal.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Kr0noZ » 14 Feb 2018, 09:07

2. Volks can purchase 2 MP 40 for 25 ammo right away.

I'd like to see that; gives you some more options early on.
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Redgaarden » 15 Feb 2018, 13:30

FUCK SCHWIMMS AND JEEPS!

My pros and cons with riflemen

Pros
Cost efficent vs enemy infantry

Cons
Gets squad wiped quite easy due to low base hp
Gets no direct combat buff from any doctrine

I haven't seen any notable difference about the new veterancy they got. But I'll keep checking and see if their veterancy is any kind of gamechanger for them.


But they are alot better in numbers now compared to before. Since their dmg output is high which can mitigate their low hp, making them more support oriented which is what infantry should be.

So them being cost efficent AND great in numbers, due to high dmg low health. I would say they are quite cheap for what they do.

Note: I'm talking about the 7 man call in from the Ranger captain.
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby MarKr » 15 Feb 2018, 16:29

Jeeps/Schwimms can be tweaked...many patches ago we upgraded the jeep's pea-shooter to a capable MG but I think we did not touch its durability, and durability was (iirc) set higher because of low firepower. Jeeps still have more HP than Schwimms and way more HP than Motorcycles. In this regard Schwimms could get some change to be more distinct from motorbikes. They currently have almost the same speed and same acceleration and deceleration but Schwimm can take a lot more shots so maybe the mobility of Schwim could be lowered to match the Jeep...just a thought.

I don't have any problem with the MP40 upgrade change.

Riflemen have no direct doctrinal buffs (maybe appart from cost reduction in Inf doc.) because Infantry doctrine has buffs focused on Rangers, AB doctrine has buffs focused on their own AB infantry and Armor doctrine is about tanks and vehicles so it makes little sense to have infantry-buffing unlocks/upgrades there.
As for their price, it could be increased, I guess, but finding the sweet spot here is hard...and I think we forgot to increase the cost of the 7 men call in when the prices of regular RIflemen went up so this can be made too.
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby kwok » 15 Feb 2018, 16:41

Just as a side note, I don’t think cost increases to early game units for the sake of balance is a good design decision. Increasing costs means delaying the production of other units. This encourages more focus on single unit micro focused games instead of combined arms strategy. Axis already suffers this “problem” which makes their play and meta so stale. The axis openings are too obviously optimized and those few openings are the only units that get any balance attention. I know it’s a lot more effort but rather than seeing a price increase to rifles, I’d rather see a price decrease to its opponents as a solution. Just one option of many in terms of balancing.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby MarKr » 15 Feb 2018, 16:49

That is an option too, though the 7 men Rifle squad should get appropriate price too. It makes no sense to increase the price of Riflemen due to increased efficiency but keep the call-in price intact - the soldiers in the squad received the buff too.
Lowering cost of Volks is an option but again it needs to be done carefully - Volks receive passive buffs in Terror and Def docs and if they are too cheap then we get the "spam of Volks is all you need" situation again, which is not really desired.
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Feb 2018, 17:00

As far as I can remember the 7 men Riflemen squad costs currently 300 MP and to be honest I can't imagine a Riflemen squad costing any higher!
Let's also not forget that this squad is not possible to obtain unless u have the Ranger Captain alive... I would say their price is fine now, Volks don't need any price reductions either.

Also, I can't really see any issues with the Jeep or any of the Schwimmwagens.. so I don't think that they would need any tweaks.

MarKr wrote:I don't have any problem with the MP40 upgrade change.

So far so great!

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Redgaarden » 15 Feb 2018, 18:06

Jeeps/Schwimms can be tweaked...many patches ago we upgraded the jeep's pea-shooter to a capable MG but I think we did not touch its durability, and durability was (iirc) set higher because of low firepower. Jeeps still have more HP than Schwimms and way more HP than Motorcycles. In this regard Schwimms could get some change to be more distinct from motorbikes. They currently have almost the same speed and same acceleration and deceleration but Schwimm can take a lot more shots so maybe the mobility of Schwim could be lowered to match the Jeep...just a thought.

I don't have any problem with the MP40 upgrade change.

Riflemen have no direct doctrinal buffs (maybe appart from cost reduction in Inf doc.) because Infantry doctrine has buffs focused on Rangers, AB doctrine has buffs focused on their own AB infantry and Armor doctrine is about tanks and vehicles so it makes little sense to have infantry-buffing unlocks/upgrades there.
As for their price, it could be increased, I guess, but finding the sweet spot here is hard...and I think we forgot to increase the cost of the 7 men call in when the prices of regular RIflemen went up so this can be made too.


Regarding jeeps/schimms I believe their lmg are a bit too lethal in close combat situations. Most lmg's suffer combat debuffs at close range. I think this is an issue since in early game engagements, jeeps/schimms are almost unkillable when hiding behinde corners such as hedges and houses. Even if you buy two at guns, You can seldomly cover all 4 sides of an house at the same time. You would need literally to place an atg both behinde, infront and at both sides of the house with the anti tank guns. And you can't push it with infantry since they will be slaughtered 1 by 1 as they come across the corner of the house.
If it could be considered to make them less deadly at close range, (Long range dmg stays the same) then I would hope that the bren machine gun also got a small nerf in its close range capabilities.

Regarding the non doctrinal choice of riflemen. The 7 man squad does not get affected by the cost redcuction of inf doc, and always cost the same regardless if you have it unlocked or not. And as it stands now, riflemen are currently better than rangers in close combat scenarios, which gives them their own role and purpose. So it is kinda sad that they are left out on the late game upgrades. But their strenghts now makes them arguably better than rangers, intil rangers get their cost reduction and veterancy upgrades.

Lowering cost of Volks is an option but again it needs to be done carefully - Volks receive passive buffs in Terror and Def docs and if they are too cheap then we get the "spam of Volks is all you need" situation again, which is not really desired.


Didn't zeal and cover training both get nerfed? And I dont think the quantity of soldiers on the front lines will become a problems since the limited space means more people dying due to explosives. I think lowering the cost of volks is quite justified, since they are more expensive than riflemen and I dont think they will win an engagements at any range atm. And their problem is their weakness to explosvies, so high intial cost is kinda hard to sutain. But then again you can get free volks from triage center. (That got nerfed/fixed too)
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Feb 2018, 19:02

MarKr wrote:Jeeps/Schwimms can be tweaked...many patches ago we upgraded the jeep's pea-shooter to a capable MG but I think we did not touch its durability, and durability was (iirc) set higher because of low firepower. Jeeps still have more HP than Schwimms and way more HP than Motorcycles. In this regard Schwimms could get some change to be more distinct from motorbikes. They currently have almost the same speed and same acceleration and deceleration but Schwimm can take a lot more shots so maybe the mobility of Schwim could be lowered to match the Jeep...just a thought.


The durability was high, then went down and back high again. Thing is they are in my opinion kind of "early tanks" while i think early game should be more focused on inf and support weapons.

They lock down infantry to stay behind cover and take lots of shots. Basically you need an AT gun to kill it. I mean we dont need it to by hollywood like where cars explode from a single pistol shot.

Slightly less durable and perhaps more crits? Engines should suffer from so many bullet hits for example. At least something that forces them to retreat at first. I do get a feeling quite often that the opening games are the next episode/movie of the "Fast & Furious" movie line.


Riflemen have no direct doctrinal buffs (maybe appart from cost reduction in Inf doc.) because Infantry doctrine has buffs focused on Rangers, AB doctrine has buffs focused on their own AB infantry and Armor doctrine is about tanks and vehicles so it makes little sense to have infantry-buffing unlocks/upgrades there.
As for their price, it could be increased, I guess, but finding the sweet spot here is hard...and I think we forgot to increase the cost of the 7 men call in when the prices of regular RIflemen went up so this can be made too.


What would be best, lmao, remove the cost reduction thing from inf doc and replace it by "faster vet gain rate" for all basic infantry units in inf doc.
Inf doc has no direct vet upgrade so i dont see why we shouldnt have all their inf affected by a faster vet gain rate for rifles etc.



kwok wrote:Just as a side note, I don’t think cost increases to early game units for the sake of balance is a good design decision. Increasing costs means delaying the production of other units. This encourages more focus on single unit micro focused games instead of combined arms strategy. Axis already suffers this “problem” which makes their play and meta so stale. The axis openings are too obviously optimized and those few openings are the only units that get any balance attention. I know it’s a lot more effort but rather than seeing a price increase to rifles, I’d rather see a price decrease to its opponents as a solution. Just one option of many in terms of balancing.


Yes, i dont know for how long i am saying this and why i always kept saying that axis inf is working simply "wrong". Instead of high build cost and hardcore raw unit stats we should focus on combined arms in general. The option to do exactly this is why i play US or WH (vc of volks) rather than brits or PE.

And i do believe that lots of support weapons are quite overpriced. I mean just to get that straight: armor doc pays less for a sherman than axis for an HMG. Something i found wrong since i can remember playing BK. In my private bk stuff i did test arround a lot with mates. And there i simply put a limit of how much infantry support units can cost. My limit was 300 MP for HMG´s and mortar 81 mm or smaller. The opening options and the dynamic largely increased. Esspecially the forth and back was more exciting and arty wasnt hammerd on any damn target and less often build/used in general.

Off topic but i agree totally with his statment

MarKr wrote:That is an option too, though the 7 men Rifle squad should get appropriate price too. It makes no sense to increase the price of Riflemen due to increased efficiency but keep the call-in price intact - the soldiers in the squad received the buff too.
Lowering cost of Volks is an option but again it needs to be done carefully - Volks receive passive buffs in Terror and Def docs and if they are too cheap then we get the "spam of Volks is all you need" situation again, which is not really desired.


The call in rifles are fine. You need a captain which require second building and then 300 MP for a unit that is afterall support and still vulnerable to pretty much everything on the field.

What i would like to see for WH would be lower build cost for their inf in return for a slight upkeep increase. Total losses are devestating but in return long term unit preservation enables you to field massive infantry armies which are also sometimes combie like (esspecially def doc). Idk what Volks approx have atm. 6 MP or so? Or just 5 (,5)? Going to 7 or arround that in return for a few MP lower build cost perhaps? Same for the grens.


@red: Call in rifles have always been cheaper to reinforce than basic one. Idk how much atm. Once their reinforce cost got affected by mass prod. The Reinforce cost have been as low as 18 or even 15 MP. Idk if its still the case. I didnt pay attention in recent patches.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Tor » 15 Feb 2018, 21:22

Maybe to much google translate, and to long, but i have ass fire, maybe someone think like my.

Rifles need little little nerf, and WH or Axis need more spotters!
If you schose schwimmwagen, you have problem, because schwimmwagen bad vs spotters, probably worst anti spotter in game, and you have none other like schwimm.
If enemy take infantry doc, he have infantry with free SMG and crowling bazooka, and that i should use to find this guys? spotters? nice... M-20 incoming, with overrepair, can take 1 panzerschreck, recce even worse, but axis don't have crawling panzerschreck even you have ammo!
They are can kill schwimm (ketten) easyli, and oneshot puma or something like this.
But sorry, brits wipeout my ass, and i start thinking about much bigger problem.

Brits overpowered vs WH, or WH bad.
WH realy bad at start vs brits, againts schwimmwagens sometimes enough sappers! but even MG 42 vs dingo nothing... you need 37mm always.
Even puma bad vs at rifles, worse than dingo vs 37mm pak, you can't go behind and kill it, its like mini Flak 8.8, you can lose game just because he buy dingo and rush 37mm, 1 miss and GG.

But they have another 2 tactics, wait recce or buy more infantry (mortars, mg), and how prepare to all?

For recce you need awlays 50mm pak? or if you have fuel, can buy 75mm short gun puma, this puma, panther and 50mm only 3 this thing can destroy recce with good chanse, someone like bidenet can wipeout all your WH infantry with just one that unit... even you have 50mm, stug, and puma in same time, they just slow, and puma cost to much
And at rifles +recce = and you start loosing if you buy puma, + 75mm puma to late sometimes.
But brits can just buy more infantry, FC you, take your 37mm, 50mm and GG, because you have no infantry.

Probably its why i suck, because i should buy 37, 50mm and they just can don't buy vehicles and win!
+ I can't use MG-42 because monster truck, what i have? mortar, yeah i like it but..
But 90% pro players play Arty, buy FC 75mm arty car, and with 25 ammo kill all your MG, Mortars, 50mm and again GG.
Why shooting cost 25??? churchil shoots worse than that and cost 40!?) Its to early and so powerfull.
This car with activated HE mode, fac better that 75mm sherman, 3-5 Fallschirmjäger per shoot.

Idk why all buy AT rifles, vs WH you just can buy dingo and save MP) oh sory forgot, only 15% axis play WH in multiplayer...
Actialy why all play PE?
Because hetzer bigger problem for brits that panther)
Probably best anti recce car, ambulance hannomag, have alot MP-44 if you just want it, best officcer in game, even at squad double more usable that WH, can trow granade, and have faust, wich one have good accuracy, easyli pen SP, churchill, jumbo...

Terror or op terror op, its have arty, infantry, tanks blah blah, you suck with terror even more at start, its not a arty doc, 115 ammo for firing, its realy to much to fire again and again, its not a infantry doc, infantry worse than in def, blitz, luft, =se and maybe litle better than TH, because free MP-44, but only fc2, idk which one better, 2 free or 4 payble...
But TH just like other PE docs have SS squad, which one better than grens... 2 LMG, Sniper, 7 man, hidind, so maybe terror worst?

Oh forgot about brits!
Standart infantry replacement cost 28, they are worse than grenadiers? or rangers? no
Standart antiinfantry mine, omg! best anti infantry mine in game, 4-6 kills always, this mini goliaf not should available at start.
FCking cromwells, with free HE, why free HE?
Achiles, you all know that thing...
Even 51mm mortar so powerfull vs AA, why? ok, its something cool for small mortar, but i think its better than RAF 76mm mortar overall why??
No cost for improving ammo and fuel 3 times! + if you have captain with vet another free buff!! RE tech tree upgrade+Captain+Upgraded truck and you can buff 16 ammo to 49!
+ to this low resources map... and GG.
Can't forgot game where axis dancing around 2 MG, because don't have ammo to trow granade in map like that.

Warhawk love to write how stug-4 op, but all brits have achilles, all PE have hetzer, and all USA have M-10 with run and gun, all can hiding at 0 vet, and all better vs kiling vehicle.
I know no more run and gun, its good, but in this patch, its bad tank destroyer, without HE and cloack its something near PZ-4F2, and for something better you need wait realy long.
Probably we get problem later with INF doc, without run and gun they start cry.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby kwok » 15 Feb 2018, 22:04

Little known fact. Bikes have bigger reveal radius than schwimms which is why I use the bike.

Another annoying thing about axis players: they almost NEVER account for the recce, I always have to specifically remind them every game “get recce counters”. Nope they get a grenadiers to match their volks and my instead (talk about over stacking the same capabilities). Even after the recce fuel bump patch, axis players are given more time to deal with the recce, enough to fit their extra grenadiers in but nooooo, still won’t get. Rather get a second grenadiers.

Another fun note: playing bigger maps makes artying targets like mg42s harder. Not that hard to make enemies waste ammo firing at nothing.

More fun arguments! Terror doc is not an arty doc, yet it has the most arty capability across all wm doctrines. It has an offmap, a cheap non-cp costing option, and a mobile SP power level killing option. Whereas the second place doctrine only has a more expensive fuel costing and cp costing field howitzer that costs the same amount to fire as a nebel, and off map option, and an option entirely on a different cp path from the rest of the artillery options. Terror has the best wm arty options as well as the most formidable tanks of all tiers.

Don’t make me go on about the stug cuz it is one of my favorite tanks. It hasn’t been touch for balancing for sooo long. They are natural Achilles counters by cost because the Achilles will be underutilizing its power to a stug and still come out in a similar match up scenario as if the Achilles faced a high tier tank.

Fun fact, one minesweeper costs less than a British anti-inf mine.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby MarKr » 15 Feb 2018, 22:40

OK, so current issues mentioned here:
1) Riflemen might be overperforming
- I would try lowering accuracy by a few % points at all ranges, this should lower the damage output

2) Volks have too much delayed close-range capacity
- we'll try changing the MP40 upgrade from 1x4guns to 2x2guns; this should add some early game options

3) Jeep/Schwimm impact on early game
- as I check the stats of these units and the performance of Volks/Riflemen vs them, it seems that both schwimm and jeep should be able to last about the same time under fire from infantry - Jeep has more HP but takes more damage, Volks shoot slower but are more accurate so more bullets hit and Kar98 bullets deal more damage than Garands etc. so in the end these pros and cons should even out each other and lead to sort of (there is still RNG but on average) balanced odds on both sides. The only thing I can think of that might lead to this disbalance you speak of is the suppression delivered by these vehicles - the jeep has actually a bit stronger suppression effect (don't ask me why, don't know), this means it suppresses infantry faster and suppressed infantry takes nerfs (most noticeably to cooldown - delay between shots. Volks have now longer delay so the percentual nerf would have stronger effect on them than on Riflemen who now have short delay.
As a possible solution to this I would lower or maybe even completely remove suppression from Jeeps and Schwimms. They would act as an additional firepower but no longer as a weaker version of HMG squads, only more mobile. This way for (proper) suppression, and thus infantry movement denial, you would need to go for HMG squads while these fast vehicles would serve as aditional firepower and recon. It would also help with the "they are too lethal at close range" because at closer ranges they suppress faster, with lower or no suppression the infantry will shoot at normal rate and destroy jeeps/Schwimms more easily.

4) Volks cost too much which hinders early game unit mixing options
- we can try what Warhawks suggested - lower the cost of Volks and in return increase their upkeep. (Lower costs would also mean lower reinforcement costs)

Not mentioned here but still:
5) WM Schwimm and Motorbike
- Motorbike is cheaper, a tiny bit faster on max speed, has way bigger detection radius (it is better for spotting camoed units) but has less HP and dies faster even to small-arms fire. People (probably except for kwok :D ) never use motorbikes and preffer Schwimms for their better survivability. I think we could change the acceleration/deceleration stats of Schwim to match Jeep (so nerf it) and maybe a tiny bit lower the max speed too. Motorbike could be harder to hit while moving. This way Schwimm would be better as early game firepower support for infantry while Motorbike would be better suited for recon (given the fact that Allies got some more infantry-crawling options, it might be worth considering to more players)

As for Tor:
"Axis need more spotters"
- as kwok already said: Motorbike has bigger spotting radius than Schwimm...almost double iirc so you can use that.

"even MG 42 vs dingo nothing"
- unlike jeeps/schwimms Dingos cost fuel and are bullet proof, that is why you cannot kill them with bullets, though the "AP burst" ability on HMG42 should still kill it

"I can't use MG-42 because monster truck"
- I can still remember people saying "remove the early AT buff vs Trucks, it is too much and who would abuse that anyway?"...so we did but some fuckers *cough*Lehr*cough* again abuse it.

"Standart infantry replacement cost 28, they are worse than grenadiers? or rangers? no"
- though they cost more then Grens or Rangers...having huge unit costs + reinforcement costs is not a good idea

"Standart antiinfantry mine, omg! best anti infantry mine in game, 4-6 kills always, this mini goliaf not should available at start"
- just as kwok said - minesweeper costs less than the mine, on PE kettens reveal mines iirc

"FCking cromwells, with free HE, why free HE?"
- the basic ammo (no HE) is weak vs any type of tank and Cromwells can be killed easily even by 50mm guns, 75mm L48 can make a short work of Cromwells and 75mm L48 is mounted on almost everything in Axis arsenal - from halftracks, over TDs such as Marders I and III, Hetzers, JPIVs all the way to medium tanks PIV J/H StuGs and I don't know what else. Also Cromwells need no upgrade for HE but switching between HE and AP still costs ammo iirc.

"No cost for improving ammo and fuel 3 times!"
- CW improves points by parking trucks in sectors. High-resource sectors usually see the strongest fights. By parking your truck there you risk losing it. Also if you compare it to all other factions which can improve all the resource points they want, is it really so bad? Yes, the others need to pay MP (F) for improving the points but still can build as many as they want, CW is stuck with 3 (4 if you get Captain to max veterancy level).
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Warhawks97
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Feb 2018, 00:00

Pls, markr. Dont touch the rifles again. Just go ahead with changes on the vehicles. All of them. I think that would reshape early game balance already. The rifles will need their current stats when the jeep isnt so "beasty" anymore.
Esspecially when volks can get the MP 40 right away it would change a lot. That way the closing in maneuvers wouldnt be so easy+ jeep wouldnt prevent cover changes so easily anymore.

Perhaps these vehicles shouldnt suppress by their own. But the suppression stats shouldnt go down to 0. Just give them suppress stats of coaxial/hull mgs. Those also never suppress by their own but many of them can stack up. So jeeps/schwimm would just add their tiny suppression to the rest of the army. So concentrated fire from many arms would still suppress.

Also lmgs on infantry units have increased reload times when enemies are close. Perhaps same can apply to these vehicles as well? I guess sitting in such unarmored vehicles and exposed to fire would make the gunners just as nervous as a normal infantry soldier. Just a thought here. I havent checked out how many bursts they can actually make before reloading so perhaps this change wouldnt have any impact.

But what about the crit chances stuff on these vehicles? is it even possible to make them having engine damages more often? I mean has anyone already fired several rifle savlos or even MG bursts on the engine of cars. I heard they can be quite vulnerable to bullets.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby MarKr » 16 Feb 2018, 00:10

I said "few % points" - if it goes down by even as little as 3% then it will underline the intended advantage to Kar98s at longer ranges but at closer range it will not really change anything for Riflemen, especially if Volks will be able to get MP40s faster.

Suppression does not need to go to 0 but really how many (let's say Shermans) do you need to suppress an infantry squad by stacked values of only their hull and coaxial MGs? There is one hull and one coaxial on the tank, that is stacked suppression from 2 guns and that does not suppress any infantry fast enough. So how many? 2 tanks? 3? that is 4 or 6 guns needed. How many times do you build 4 jeeps and keep them together to shoot at same target? So what is the point of keeping it above 0 if there is no practical use for it? Having it there just so it is there is not really a good reason.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Feb 2018, 11:56

MarKr wrote:I said "few % points" - if it goes down by even as little as 3% then it will underline the intended advantage to Kar98s at longer ranges but at closer range it will not really change anything for Riflemen, especially if Volks will be able to get MP40s faster.


So why making changes at all? Most here seemed to be fine when jeeps/schwimm would get changes as well as MP40 for volks avaialble right away. Nobody here had complains about Garand beating K98 at long range 1 vs 1 with cover etc. or with other words that M1 beats K98 in situations where it shouldnt do so. So what part of your intention doesnt work already that it needs further tweaks? There is no sign in any statment here that the rifles (all) do not work as intended.

Suppression does not need to go to 0 but really how many (let's say Shermans) do you need to suppress an infantry squad by stacked values of only their hull and coaxial MGs? There is one hull and one coaxial on the tank, that is stacked suppression from 2 guns and that does not suppress any infantry fast enough. So how many? 2 tanks? 3? that is 4 or 6 guns needed. How many times do you build 4 jeeps and keep them together to shoot at same target? So what is the point of keeping it above 0 if there is no practical use for it? Having it there just so it is there is not really a good reason.


I mentioned these as those were the first in my mind having suppression values without ever suppressing by their own. All bullet based weapons seem to have slight suppression values. Thats what i am saying that any mixed sort of intense arms fire cause suppression at the end. Thats my point here. Concentrated fire of many many weapons which alone are not supposed to be a suppression platform can cause suppression.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby Tiger1996 » 16 Feb 2018, 12:33

Tor wrote:But 90% pro players play Arty, buy FC 75mm arty car, and with 25 ammo kill all your MG, Mortars, 50mm and again GG.
Why shooting cost 25??? churchil shoots worse than that and cost 40!?) Its to early and so powerfull.
This car with activated HE mode, fac better that 75mm sherman, 3-5 Fallschirmjäger per shoot.

That is 1 thing that I have to agree about...
I understand that the barrage price is based on the gun "caliber" but to be honest this 75mm RA doctrine half-track is extremely over-performing, just 25 ammo.. comes too early, and can always kill any Axis half-track with a single hit! 150mm Nebels cost 50 ammo and they do much less damage.
And by the way.. in the Afrika add-on, the barrage of this 75mm halftrack now costs 50 ammo and has longer cool-down as well...
I think the same could probably happen also in regular BK.

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Re: Riflemen the new Fjr?

Postby MarKr » 16 Feb 2018, 15:28

Warhawks97 wrote:Nobody here had complains about Garand beating K98 at long range 1 vs 1 with cover etc. or with other words that M1 beats K98 in situations where it shouldnt do so.
What are these then?
Henny wrote:These lads cost 255MP but they can rape assault grenadiers and grens that cost 350 mp +, how does this make sense? By the time you have 2x grens, they field 3 riflemen at the same time. My grens were shooting at these guys in red cover and they just ate that shit for breakfast. (...)

kwok wrote:While I don't agree the the magnitude of Henny's complaint, I agree that rifles are a tad too strong right now. (...) They kill faster and do not suppress (I'd wager the net avg damage dealt is higher than originally wanted). I'd probably suggest a harder accuracy nerf and maybe even the slightest suppression increase to make up for it.

Tiger1996 wrote:Riflemen might be a little bit over the top at the moment, however... I honestly think they are just fine now and don't need any further tweaking.
Basically saying "they are bit too strong but whatever"
Redgaarden wrote:(...)But they are alot better in numbers now compared to before. Since their dmg output is high which can mitigate their low hp, making them more support oriented which is what infantry should be.

Warhawks97 wrote:I mentioned these as those were the first in my mind having suppression values without ever suppressing by their own. All bullet based weapons seem to have slight suppression values. Thats what i am saying that any mixed sort of intense arms fire cause suppression at the end. Thats my point here. Concentrated fire of many many weapons which alone are not supposed to be a suppression platform can cause suppression.

I think those values were added globaly by some macro to small arms because of abilities that cause suppression - they work the way that they multiply the suppression values by some huge number, let's say x10 so the minimum value suddenly becomes considerable and with few shots it suppresses infantry. If they were set to 0, then 0x10 is still 0 and nothing would happen.

For the consistency we can keep it there but the final effect will be the same - practical suppression will be almost non-existent for these MGs.
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