Airborne
-
Sukin-kot (SVT)
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
- Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia
Re: Airborne
Your sceanario is possible only in vacum:D
Re: Airborne
1) OK, my bad.
2) Then suggest something - you don't need to rework the whole doc just make some parts more useful. I, for one, think that lower prices for airstrikes and lower cooldown times would take some pressure off infantry and let the air support deal with some threaths.
3) Well, yeah, that's the problem of big maps :/.
4) The HP buff could work...as airborne infantry they already are harder to hit if they are moving which should help them to close the distance, they have Fireup ability from the start (not just sprint) which helps too. Maybe some weapon stat buff could be applied to increase their deadliness at close range (like longer bursts at close range or something)
5) I was thinking about making stickies a guaranteed immobilizer to vehicles - but lower damage and also lower cost. That way you could make it immobile and finish the vehicle with an airstrike or it would be easier to flank with AT squads...something in this sense. also in combination with cheaper airstrikes you could take out effectively heavies. Or at least more effectively than you can now.
6) Ask him, he'll tell you his reasons
Just as I said I'd rather see the doc changed a little bit to be able to use its full potential rather than keeping it the current state where it is dependant on the 101st.
2) Then suggest something - you don't need to rework the whole doc just make some parts more useful. I, for one, think that lower prices for airstrikes and lower cooldown times would take some pressure off infantry and let the air support deal with some threaths.
3) Well, yeah, that's the problem of big maps :/.
4) The HP buff could work...as airborne infantry they already are harder to hit if they are moving which should help them to close the distance, they have Fireup ability from the start (not just sprint) which helps too. Maybe some weapon stat buff could be applied to increase their deadliness at close range (like longer bursts at close range or something)
5) I was thinking about making stickies a guaranteed immobilizer to vehicles - but lower damage and also lower cost. That way you could make it immobile and finish the vehicle with an airstrike or it would be easier to flank with AT squads...something in this sense. also in combination with cheaper airstrikes you could take out effectively heavies. Or at least more effectively than you can now.
6) Ask him, he'll tell you his reasons
Just as I said I'd rather see the doc changed a little bit to be able to use its full potential rather than keeping it the current state where it is dependant on the 101st.
-
Sukin-kot (SVT)
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
- Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia
Re: Airborne
MarKr wrote:Just as I said I'd rather see the doc changed a little bit to be able to use its full potential rather than keeping it the current state where it is dependant on the 101st.
I got it, and i support it. Just do it in not the way of nerfing something, but buffing other things to make it more preferable. ( That actually the problem of nearly all Wolf patches, very many nerfes). My point is that much better to give opponent side a reliable counterpart for x\y "OP" unit, than just nerfing it to shit (Scots, Stuhs, commando smoke, KCH, SE sniper and etc.) all this units were fun somehow, and, the funniest moment that game was kinda better balanced with them, they were over the top, but they also made game more fun and active, also you could find a counter to them (drive halftruck with zooks on stuh and kill it, disable SE sniper fire power (and other axis units) by commando smoke, stop masses of luft and storms with scots, blow the shit out of 17 pounder spam from Raf player with stuhs and maaaaaaany other cases. now all reduced and all this battles and tricks are no more happening in games, kinda bad...). We with clan recently played several matches in 4.7 and found it richer for different tactics and fun game moments, thats it. What i also noticed there, that game is more active especially in early game due to snipers old big sight, you could detect and overrun all early mgs and paks fast, currently its always jerking off with this reacons: buy non combat unit for 160 mp > wait for arriving it to front > be careful with it, dont let it be detected and killed by enemies sniper + recon > damn, you accidently lost it? ok, you cant atack because you dont see anything > lets build some def stuff untill new recon will arrive.
Re: Airborne
Just do it in not the way of nerfing something, but buffing other things to make it more preferable. ( That actually the problem of nearly all Wolf patches, very many nerfes).
I must say that nerfing is also more preferable to me than buffing - just imagine a theoretical situation: WH Grenadiers are stronger against US Rifles, balance of PE Panzer Grenadiers and CW Infantry section is fine against other basicinfantry. So you buff US Rifles - so they are balanced against WH Grenadiers. Now they are stronger against PE infantry. People will notice it and start call for some action - by the "do buffs, not nerfs" principle you buff PE infantry to match the US. Now CW infatry is the only one untouched so logically remains weaker - people will notice and call for change so you buff them too which will make them too strong against WH Grenadiers so they get buff and you are where you started
. This example is intentionally exagerated but it demonstrates my point."OP" unit, than just nerfing it to shit (Scots, Stuhs, commando smoke, KCH, SE sniper and etc.)
Do you realize that these things were nerffed because people kept complaining about them like...forever? KCHs had many separated threads on the old forum and I think you can find some here too. Same goes for "Commandos ninja smoke". SE sniper had crazy rate of fired combined with high accuracy - I would say that was a bug rather than an intended feature. Scots, StuHs...those were extremely acurate and deadly but the almost 100% accuracy was the main problem...
all this units were fun somehow, and, the funniest moment that game was kinda better balanced with them, they were over the top, but they also made game more fun and active
I think that they were "fun" for those who used them but "hell" for those who faced them
.But we're getting OT with these things. If you have any suggestions how to make Para doc more playable, please share it with us
Re: Airborne
Make the airborne observer squad like a scout squad. Right now you pay 180 MP for a unit that does absolutely nothing except call in support units and resources. For doing only that, it's quite expensive. Give them the evasive action ability so they can infiltrate behind enemy lines and act as airborne scouts, and recon for plane attacks. They already camo while in cover, however this doesn't let them get behind enemy lines without being seen.
Maybe give them binoculars, but the scout does that for 160 MP already, just without the ability to paradrop anywhere.
Maybe give them binoculars, but the scout does that for 160 MP already, just without the ability to paradrop anywhere.
-
Sukin-kot (SVT)
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
- Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia
Re: Airborne
MarKr wrote:But we're getting OT with these things. If you have any suggestions how to make Para doc more playable, please share it with us
Hellcat, Garands, camo, slightly 82s buff.
-
Warhawks97
- Posts: 5395
- Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
- Location: Germany
Re: Airborne
If BAR got never dropped and used by airborne why not remove them completely from them and only johnson.
You got a good point when you said "its not supposed to play airborne that way" and that there is other stuff that can be used. The Problem is that cant be combined really well as a mix of them is just weak expensive stuff. For example 101st drop+mortar requires many CP and like almost 800 mp and its worth nothing as the single 101st cant do a shit to defend the mortar or to make this effective. Due to each call in cost of weapons that are pointless unless they come in masses you have more or less two choices to play airborne. Either using only the support stuff by having no real own offensive force. Then the gameplay is based on mates providing inf and tanks and those are absoulutely based on airbornes support weapons dropping right at front (Pak, mortar,HMG). If teammates arent successfull and when game becomes chaotic without frontlines AB is fucked up without own 101st blobb with weapons and vet. The other way is simply using hordes of 101st as they are pointless alone. But mixed used of support weapons and AB ranger isnt possible. Its only possible in very long games when 101st blobb is up->killing many enemies->loosing less of their own+ cheaper reinforce cost-> huge ammount of res in very late game but then game is often almost over and the tactical gameplay where the support weapons would have been usefull is gone anyway at that time. When i look at commandos which need two glider and having then paks+inf etc or Luftwaffe which needs one unlock for a unit and another to be able to drop Mortar+Mg42 for 100 or 75 ammo and leig 18 unlocked as well and called by combat unit right away.... AB needs 180 MP reccons, each shit need its own unlock (Mortar, hmg, suppy drop with more hmg/mortar,pak......).
What would help to fix this a bit would be like mortar/HMG share one unlock and stuff like that. Also maybe some better recconassaince for this doc to be better prepared for airdrop missions like having binoculars for the reccon drop and for the M20.
Add ambush for increased survivability. I dont get why wolf doesnt like it. It should be an absolutely clear thing.
The 101st maybe for 1 CP so that this unit would become the basic inf unit of this doc and like an airdropped rifle squad. Also 400 mp build cost to make it easier to combine support weapon drops with 101st and 500 for the 82nd.
The airstrikes are ass said only usefull against static defending enemies and only if combined with an attack of all available units. Under normal circumstances its hard to hit a tank with the two bombs and even harder to kill even when they hit the tank. Sometimes they stay in the target location just one bomb droppes too short and the other too long. Esspecially when airstrike comes from the side this is often the case. So cost drop here for example. Independent unlocks, e.g supply drop and pak drop unlock. Or having the choice of going either for 101st HQ after 101st unlock or to got for 82nd->vet unlock after 101st unlock which would allow much better versatility and tactical options when player can choose what they do need. Maybe the pack howitzer, as suggested already, in this doc available after motorpool is up and availbale there and also in AB HQ. Then player could decide to either find a house for a HQ and building the howitzer there or dropped by air when no HQ is available and when player prepared the landing by having reccons already dropped and so dropping pak or howitzer right together with the first 101st behind enemie lines. Just some love with a tectree that makes sense and unit cost that allow powerfull combination of support units and main units and not either/or as mentioned above and some ideas for better flexibility and recconassaince in which this doc should be also decent a better than other units.
@Wake: SS squad cost 550 mp such as Gebirgs and regiment 5. But i know what you mean.
@Markr and sukin: i dont think that we need OP stuff working simply off. I never used them by my own or seldomly simply as i felt bad using such units to beat my enemie. I hadnt much fun with stupa and it was just annoying that everybody went for it ones finding out how this unit performs. All games where just about the question: when comes stupa or do we have something to kill it when it comes. Simply boring shit and players got proud when they won by using such units. I personally used stupa only onc ein my BK life and turned alone with möbelwagen (and later Tankhunter IV) and entire game that was actually lost already with stupa which did about 70% of all the kills of our team. It was simply BS and i am glad that such stuff got fixed though some could have got a cost adjustment after nerfs. Sample for me is the scott. Cost more than any sherman by having efficency against inf not better as M16 just as sample. But thats off topic and i dont want a another relpy on this part as we all gave our opinion already about that.
@Wake: Airborne Rangers had been well trained for sure. But the actual counterpart to Commandos and stormtoopers had been the Rangers. 5 battallions of them got used during ww2 and only the 2nd and 5th during normandy and france 44. Each with about 400-600 men. Its actually wrong in BK that they are just like a Grenadier counterpart and even worse in many situations. Rangers got trained by battle experienced british commandos. Many say that the training was already as hard and realistic as the real War. They got deployed sometimes as frontline units doing special missions there and sometimes like commandos in sneaky actions. Still often wasted in fights the normal inf could have done just like the germans wasted their luftwaffe units as frontline ground forces in defensive duties.
You got a good point when you said "its not supposed to play airborne that way" and that there is other stuff that can be used. The Problem is that cant be combined really well as a mix of them is just weak expensive stuff. For example 101st drop+mortar requires many CP and like almost 800 mp and its worth nothing as the single 101st cant do a shit to defend the mortar or to make this effective. Due to each call in cost of weapons that are pointless unless they come in masses you have more or less two choices to play airborne. Either using only the support stuff by having no real own offensive force. Then the gameplay is based on mates providing inf and tanks and those are absoulutely based on airbornes support weapons dropping right at front (Pak, mortar,HMG). If teammates arent successfull and when game becomes chaotic without frontlines AB is fucked up without own 101st blobb with weapons and vet. The other way is simply using hordes of 101st as they are pointless alone. But mixed used of support weapons and AB ranger isnt possible. Its only possible in very long games when 101st blobb is up->killing many enemies->loosing less of their own+ cheaper reinforce cost-> huge ammount of res in very late game but then game is often almost over and the tactical gameplay where the support weapons would have been usefull is gone anyway at that time. When i look at commandos which need two glider and having then paks+inf etc or Luftwaffe which needs one unlock for a unit and another to be able to drop Mortar+Mg42 for 100 or 75 ammo and leig 18 unlocked as well and called by combat unit right away.... AB needs 180 MP reccons, each shit need its own unlock (Mortar, hmg, suppy drop with more hmg/mortar,pak......).
What would help to fix this a bit would be like mortar/HMG share one unlock and stuff like that. Also maybe some better recconassaince for this doc to be better prepared for airdrop missions like having binoculars for the reccon drop and for the M20.
Add ambush for increased survivability. I dont get why wolf doesnt like it. It should be an absolutely clear thing.
The 101st maybe for 1 CP so that this unit would become the basic inf unit of this doc and like an airdropped rifle squad. Also 400 mp build cost to make it easier to combine support weapon drops with 101st and 500 for the 82nd.
The airstrikes are ass said only usefull against static defending enemies and only if combined with an attack of all available units. Under normal circumstances its hard to hit a tank with the two bombs and even harder to kill even when they hit the tank. Sometimes they stay in the target location just one bomb droppes too short and the other too long. Esspecially when airstrike comes from the side this is often the case. So cost drop here for example. Independent unlocks, e.g supply drop and pak drop unlock. Or having the choice of going either for 101st HQ after 101st unlock or to got for 82nd->vet unlock after 101st unlock which would allow much better versatility and tactical options when player can choose what they do need. Maybe the pack howitzer, as suggested already, in this doc available after motorpool is up and availbale there and also in AB HQ. Then player could decide to either find a house for a HQ and building the howitzer there or dropped by air when no HQ is available and when player prepared the landing by having reccons already dropped and so dropping pak or howitzer right together with the first 101st behind enemie lines. Just some love with a tectree that makes sense and unit cost that allow powerfull combination of support units and main units and not either/or as mentioned above and some ideas for better flexibility and recconassaince in which this doc should be also decent a better than other units.
@Wake: SS squad cost 550 mp such as Gebirgs and regiment 5. But i know what you mean.
@Markr and sukin: i dont think that we need OP stuff working simply off. I never used them by my own or seldomly simply as i felt bad using such units to beat my enemie. I hadnt much fun with stupa and it was just annoying that everybody went for it ones finding out how this unit performs. All games where just about the question: when comes stupa or do we have something to kill it when it comes. Simply boring shit and players got proud when they won by using such units. I personally used stupa only onc ein my BK life and turned alone with möbelwagen (and later Tankhunter IV) and entire game that was actually lost already with stupa which did about 70% of all the kills of our team. It was simply BS and i am glad that such stuff got fixed though some could have got a cost adjustment after nerfs. Sample for me is the scott. Cost more than any sherman by having efficency against inf not better as M16 just as sample. But thats off topic and i dont want a another relpy on this part as we all gave our opinion already about that.
@Wake: Airborne Rangers had been well trained for sure. But the actual counterpart to Commandos and stormtoopers had been the Rangers. 5 battallions of them got used during ww2 and only the 2nd and 5th during normandy and france 44. Each with about 400-600 men. Its actually wrong in BK that they are just like a Grenadier counterpart and even worse in many situations. Rangers got trained by battle experienced british commandos. Many say that the training was already as hard and realistic as the real War. They got deployed sometimes as frontline units doing special missions there and sometimes like commandos in sneaky actions. Still often wasted in fights the normal inf could have done just like the germans wasted their luftwaffe units as frontline ground forces in defensive duties.
Build more AA Walderschmidt
-
Warhawks97
- Posts: 5395
- Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
- Location: Germany
Re: Airborne
To bring this one back and in order to mark it for you guys as "unread" i will make a new post here instead edit my previous. Hope thats ok for you.
Ive been playing AB now and i had a great fight fighting at all fronts and fighting inf and heavy tanks. Surprisingly the 6 lmg in one squad wasnt really neccessary and mostly i had weird mix of reccoiless and zooks here and there, few with picked up M1919 and lmg34 and also picked up stgs and i had nice fights against axis inf even when i had just 2 lmgs in a squad.
Thing is that my first 101st did need 4 or 5 johnsons to be effective against gens etc. In late game when i had more squads and HQ squad the combined firepower of several squads killed the enemie inf supported by M16 an other stuff. I dont consider the 6 lmgs in one squad as neccessary anymore in late game at least but the 101st has very bad cost performence ration as single squad in early- mid game. I think the 101st is not supposed to fight alone but the high cost prevent any effective combination for a longer time.
So from my side its ok now when the number of upgradable johnsons is reduced to 2 or 4 or whatever. You said that carabine gets buffed so it wouldnt hurt. As the 101st is similiar like most US and allied units and supposed to be supported or to support others the 450 mp for a drop are very high pointing out that they cant compete really with any enemie infantry alone and that they need to fight in superior numbers usually. It makes it also hard to use them in greater airlanding operations with other drops which i tested in last games. But the ammount of res required to stand a fight with airpropped units is very high which makes this playstyle very hard.
Also i noticed that sticky cost 25 ammo still.... i did need 3-5 of them to deal cirt damage to most enemie tanks and then they had just slight damage and immobilized but without immediate arty strikes of teammates the enemie could have repaired the tank very fast (esspecially PE and def doc) and 100-150 ammo+ all the losses it took to plant them had been wasted for nothing. Thats just stupid and a painfull high cost (esspecially when compared to fausts for 35 ammo per shot from gebirgs dealing always massive damage or AT nades for 20 with much more range and damage). Sticky are simply weapons effective when used in masses and damage is very low still. Drop the cost.
Also what about using normal nades even after the incendiary unlock such as terror and SE units can? When fighing units inside houses the incendiary deals damage over time but the immediate damage is lower as those of normal frags often. Would be nice if the normal frags would be still useable.
The last thing are these 180 mp for a squad that acts more like a building which provides units that also cost quite a lot. Along with the stuff written above about the high res for effective air landing operations the 180 mp are too much for the fact that the squad itself does nothing. I also noted (and seen in Wakes list) that they are described as "observation" squad with reccon duties..... Just they cant do that without binoculars...
Ive been playing AB now and i had a great fight fighting at all fronts and fighting inf and heavy tanks. Surprisingly the 6 lmg in one squad wasnt really neccessary and mostly i had weird mix of reccoiless and zooks here and there, few with picked up M1919 and lmg34 and also picked up stgs and i had nice fights against axis inf even when i had just 2 lmgs in a squad.
Thing is that my first 101st did need 4 or 5 johnsons to be effective against gens etc. In late game when i had more squads and HQ squad the combined firepower of several squads killed the enemie inf supported by M16 an other stuff. I dont consider the 6 lmgs in one squad as neccessary anymore in late game at least but the 101st has very bad cost performence ration as single squad in early- mid game. I think the 101st is not supposed to fight alone but the high cost prevent any effective combination for a longer time.
So from my side its ok now when the number of upgradable johnsons is reduced to 2 or 4 or whatever. You said that carabine gets buffed so it wouldnt hurt. As the 101st is similiar like most US and allied units and supposed to be supported or to support others the 450 mp for a drop are very high pointing out that they cant compete really with any enemie infantry alone and that they need to fight in superior numbers usually. It makes it also hard to use them in greater airlanding operations with other drops which i tested in last games. But the ammount of res required to stand a fight with airpropped units is very high which makes this playstyle very hard.
Also i noticed that sticky cost 25 ammo still.... i did need 3-5 of them to deal cirt damage to most enemie tanks and then they had just slight damage and immobilized but without immediate arty strikes of teammates the enemie could have repaired the tank very fast (esspecially PE and def doc) and 100-150 ammo+ all the losses it took to plant them had been wasted for nothing. Thats just stupid and a painfull high cost (esspecially when compared to fausts for 35 ammo per shot from gebirgs dealing always massive damage or AT nades for 20 with much more range and damage). Sticky are simply weapons effective when used in masses and damage is very low still. Drop the cost.
Also what about using normal nades even after the incendiary unlock such as terror and SE units can? When fighing units inside houses the incendiary deals damage over time but the immediate damage is lower as those of normal frags often. Would be nice if the normal frags would be still useable.
The last thing are these 180 mp for a squad that acts more like a building which provides units that also cost quite a lot. Along with the stuff written above about the high res for effective air landing operations the 180 mp are too much for the fact that the squad itself does nothing. I also noted (and seen in Wakes list) that they are described as "observation" squad with reccon duties..... Just they cant do that without binoculars...
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 04 Mar 2015, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
Build more AA Walderschmidt
-
Sukin-kot (SVT)
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
- Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia
Re: Airborne
Really!? Somebody learnt how to play airbornem cant belive it!:D