Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration and Turn Rate

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kwok
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Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration and Turn Rate

Postby kwok » 29 Dec 2017, 08:04

One of the distinguishing features of BK is its "tactical realism" mechanics. This doesn't mean the values of the units are realistic but that the game encourages and rewards tactics that are often executed in real-life scenarios. For example, extending ranges of weapons to simulate the long range combat of 20th century combat and high death critical chances to simulate the deadliness of combat instead of a basic HP system.

Despite all the changes of BK, there is still an "arcadish feel" to some of the gameplay. This is not always a bad thing, but I want to ask where the line between arcade and simulation is and can we stretch that line. The game has a natural tendency to reward micro-skill over strategy giving it the arcade feel. One such example is the use of vehicles. Have you ever seen an armored car do a complete 180 degree turn, rotating on its center, and speeding away? Use the CW Daimler. That car is one of the most agile ballerinas in the game. Do you recall the story of the tiger tank that skillfully slalomed through a high grade obstacle course? Only in BK.

Vehicles in BK sometimes act as one-man armies because of their ability to micro through situations without tradeoffs. It doesn't resemble the tactics applied in reality where vehicle commanders rely more on planning and positioning rather than practicing for the tank-olympics. Personally, I'd rather see BK reward strategy more than micro. I have a radical suggestion to decrease the deceleration and acceleration of nearly all vehicles in BK. How do the rest of you feel about this idea?

Immediately, I can think of TONS of balance issues coming up from this change. It is essentially a blanket vehicle nerf and indirect offmap support buff plus any other indirect buffs. But, despite these balance issues that can be worked over multiple patches I think this idea is worth pursuing to give the vehicles of BK a refreshing and fun meta that better resembles the stories of armored combat in the WW2 stories.

More analysis on balance impacts to come, but I wanted to throw the idea out for discussion first.
Last edited by kwok on 29 Dec 2017, 09:21, edited 1 time in total.

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 29 Dec 2017, 08:08

You can take the example from "arcadish" COH2 vanila, where almost every basic infantry unit can use AT tools, to break tank's engine and damage it, making using alone vehicles without a proper support useless.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration

Postby Tiger1996 » 29 Dec 2017, 09:05

kwok wrote:How do the rest of you feel about this idea

Company of Heroes is not Men of War and can never be.
This is shortly how I feel about the idea...
I do believe that the general vehicles\infantry balance in Bk Mod is currently just too well, and therefore in my humble opinion I don't think any massive changes regarding this matter are any worth it at all or even necessary.

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Jalis
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Re: Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration

Postby Jalis » 29 Dec 2017, 09:15

It is not changing accelaration or turning rate on vehicles you need.
What you need is switching from coh to a more realistic game.

Just an other exemple tank have a longest range sight than infantry. Really it would be a shortest one and only a narrow cone in front.

Find an other game that can please you in term of realism, because it is something coh cant, even with mod.

kwok
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Re: Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration

Postby kwok » 29 Dec 2017, 09:17

@Tiger
If anything, this is the opposite of "men of war". Men of war allows for extremely fine vehicle controls. Right now, the speedy do everything vehicles are able to pull off ridiculous micro actions like in men of war. By lowering the acceleration of vehicles, more strategy and broad movements are rewarded instead. Instead of greyhounds or pumas zipping around silly popping shots and running around in circles, you'll get well placed AT guns and vehicles scoring side hits from ambush and locations of visual advantage. Instead of a hellcats and cromwells playing ring aroudn the rosy around a tiger, you get a game of will the tiger be in a position where it can pick off the hopelessly, poorly, placed medium tanks without mercy OR will the medium tanks move onto the unsuspected exposed flank of the tiger before it could turn and scoring those "flank shots" that the allegedly spammable 76 shermans with it's 34% penetration can do.

Other mods and games that brought this in are SD44 and Wikingr. Even Wikingr is more progressive in this way that BK! While a game like Spearhead mod still likes to play with its full vcoh accelerated panthers and shermans that run around with its "realistic" mounted mg pretty much killing everything with its spoiled, elitist, exploiting community calling it "skill".

@Jalis
Turn rate and acceleration go hand-in-hjand, I agree turn rate should change too. Both of the values overlap each other in many ways. Thanks for pointing that out.

I think you missed my point about "realism" though. It's the ambiance and feel of rewarding tactics that give it a "feel" of realism vs arcade. It's the immersion of feeling like a commander rather than a player that creates "realism". Not realistic penetration values and speeds. If everything went historical, "realism" could be lost because you end up focusing on other micro things rather than immersing as a military leader.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration and Turn Rate

Postby Tiger1996 » 29 Dec 2017, 09:33

It is true that Wikinger Mod has taken into account a much more realistic tank warfare ideology, with very long range for tanks and very narrow sight range.. which is good, but the CoH2 engine has helped them! They have the true-sight feature... So nothing can see behind obstacles. And this leads to a more tactical approach of how and where generally all units are placed, not just tanks.

Bk Mod however, does not have true-sight and can't have it. Nonetheless, as u r already aware... Bk Mod has dynamic sight! Units lose sight range while being on the move and gain full sight range when stationary. There is nothing more Bk can do regarding this.. simply because the engine can't go any further.

So, it is as Jalis said.. maybe Steel Division and Wikinger can heal you :) I also play them myself from time to time.. but Bk just as how it is currently, is still the best.. even with limited game engine.

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Jalis
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Re: Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration and Turn Rate

Postby Jalis » 29 Dec 2017, 17:44

I will not risk me in pvp consideration for vehicles vs infantry.

For pve At time Heavy vehicles are available, they rule the world. Light vehicles become useless and infantry is limited to capture role. The game simply become a tanks battle supported by arty. I tried solutions, but with no real success.

@kwok ;if you think and can rally others to your view, tuning acceleration and turning rate can be good for your mod, try it. However I think tanks problem come from lack of vulnerability due to their high and 360 degree sight. Last is something associated to game engine and mod cant do anything against that. Drastically rise tanks cost is not a solution either. Destruction of such units would be too frustrating for solo players, and a too severe blow (I presume) for a pvp one.

kwok
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Re: Suggestion: "Realistic" Vehicle Acceleration and Turn Rate

Postby kwok » 29 Dec 2017, 20:49

I've built it into my own mod from the beginning, so far from my testers they say they enjoy it just because it feels more "real". I actually brought other features in and suggested it to olhausen to bring into Wikingr.
But I see and agree with what you say about it is a HUGE impact to the pvp meta which is why I want to bring it up to the BK community as a discussion and see if we are willing to take the risk in drastically changing the gameplay for a "new" game.


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