"Vehicle Button" ability rework

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Warhawks97
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Jan 2018, 19:07

Redgaarden wrote:
It was thoroughly discussed, it was suggest to replace the ability since H&R is a bit too wanky even for our standards. The replacemt of the ability, "Phsophour rounds" was suggested but I objected since the ability hardly works. I wouldn't mind the phsphourus rounds, IF they disable the maingun of the affected target.


yeah, basically "stunning" the tank. No sight, no aiming etc. Phosphour rounds took the sight of the crew so aiming would be rather hard. It also made the crew thinking the tank is on fire. So technically the tank "or its crew" would be literally disabled and blind for a given ammount of time. This simply doesnt really happen currently.

But if it gets changed, it would be a good alternative.


About the usage of M10´s in general. In later stages of the game you should use them in pairs most of the time. Thats what i at least do.

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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby Redgaarden » 12 Jan 2018, 08:25

The M10 is also my favourite tank in bk and in real life.
A fully upgraded m10 actually has a decent chance to 1v1 the panther, it's just not very cost efficent. And it requires the m10 not to die in 1 hit.
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drivebyhobo
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby drivebyhobo » 12 Jan 2018, 14:23

Tiger1996 wrote:
also its a shame what happened with hit and run tactics hability, i guess crying and crying about the hability in every post like tiger does kinda "helps".

Hmm.. is this statement necessary man?

You have a lot of nerve to be indignant over forum civility when your first reply in the topic composed of a drive-by attack, followed up with a memorized rant on your latest off topic obsession.

Video related: Christie explains what you did in your first post.
https://youtu.be/CkdpzRDxTXU?t=1m23s

Tiger1996 wrote:when we had such silly abilities like tread breaker for AT teams, as well as engine ignite by the Croc

A molotov works by igniting roughly a litre of flameable liquid as it drips into an engine compartment. So clearly ridiculous for the croc to damage an engine compartment when it is a tank pumping flames out at high pressure measured in litres per second.




Anyway on topic, I most often find myself using the "button enemy vehicle" ability against armored cars. I find it has a useful niche of slowing down obnoxious micromanaged enemy armored cars long enough for a PIAT squad to handle them.

MarKr wrote:It might give more survivability to AT teams attacking tanks or other infantry using their "AT abilities.

I see this as being of very limited value to the British when their primary method of countering tanks is to hit it with a 17lber of some kind (be it emplacement, tank or naked). Only RAF Doctrine really has substantial options that involve infantry AT weapons.

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Tiger1996
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby Tiger1996 » 12 Jan 2018, 18:18

drivebyhobo wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:
also its a shame what happened with hit and run tactics hability, i guess crying and crying about the hability in every post like tiger does kinda "helps".

Hmm.. is this statement necessary man?

You have a lot of nerve to be indignant over forum civility when your first reply in the topic composed of a drive-by attack, followed up with a memorized rant on your latest off topic obsession.

Video related: Christie explains what you did in your first post.
https://youtu.be/CkdpzRDxTXU?t=1m23s

And what you are doing now is not off-topic, right?

When I talked about the H & R ability on my first post, I did that as I believe it's relevant how both abilities (the vehicle button ability as well as H&R) are in fact quite similar in the way of which how both of them are functioning.. nonetheless, since I am aware it's still a different ability...
I then had to include that part in my post; "generally though, if you don't mind me talking about something similar" and MarKr simply replied suggesting that we should only speak about the vehicles button ability here. And that's exactly what I did later! However, when Hawks asked about the ability once more, MarKr then again simply replied him.. but then all of sudden, Mofeta came up with this weird statement, despite you should probably know that there is nothing personal between me and Mofeta after all.

And so I believe what you are trying to do now is actually rather nothing but a new "flaming attempt" right there.. trust me though, continuing with this any further would only fail so miserably.

drivebyhobo wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:when we had such silly abilities like tread breaker for AT teams, as well as engine ignite by the Croc

A molotov works by igniting roughly a litre of flameable liquid as it drips into an engine compartment. So clearly ridiculous for the croc to damage an engine compartment when it is a tank pumping flames out at high pressure measured in litres per second.


I think you don't exactly know what is the "ignite engine" ability even, do you? Well, it used to "instantly" burn or destroy tank engines.. and not just "damaging" them! Though, currently it makes sense for sure how flamethrowers (including Croc) can damage the engine.. but they just do it normally after targeting it for a while, and not instantly! Which is why the ability was crap.

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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby MarKr » 12 Jan 2018, 19:46

drivebyhobo wrote:I see this as being of very limited value to the British when their primary method of countering tanks is to hit it with a 17lber of some kind (be it emplacement, tank or naked). Only RAF Doctrine really has substantial options that involve infantry AT weapons.
It was more meant in conjuction to the part of my post that followed:
MarKr wrote:This ability could also be given to other squads (e.g. Grens, Assault grens, Dekungs Storms...simply some squads with LMGs even on Axis side).
Axis have the AT nades, Panzerfausts/molotovs, HLL3s etc. which would gain some more space by this. I am not saying that this change would be a buff to CW, not every change made needs to buff stuff and also with the direct and indirect nerfs on Axis in last few patches, some minor nerf to allies is not really out of place.

There are also some more changes coming next patch and they might work nicely with changes for this ability (+ addition of the ability to some Axis units too).
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby drivebyhobo » 13 Jan 2018, 15:32

Tiger1996 wrote:I then had to include that part in my post; "generally though, if you don't mind me talking about something similar"

Offering an empty platitude doesn't give you a license to do as you please. You'll find that's true well beyond the confines of these forums.

MarKr wrote: I am not saying that this change would be a buff to CW, not every change made needs to buff stuff and also with the direct and indirect nerfs on Axis in last few patches, some minor nerf to allies is not really out of place..

Would this allow Axis infantry to cancel out an activated 50 cal suppression fire ability on Shermans?

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Tiger1996
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby Tiger1996 » 13 Jan 2018, 18:30

Empty platitude? So, you just came here to tell me that? Oh, how so much of a valuable input from your side on this topic...
I can actually respond that in a very hard way though.. but luckily enough, my mood isn't too bad today! So I think I will just give it a pass, just to keep things going as I also don't really want to see this topic derailed any further.


Back to the topic now, I just wanted to add something as regard to the vehicle button ability... I guess if the core intention of the change is that it would be some sort of a help to increase the chances of infantry when rushing tanks with top gunners since it became a bit too hard to achieve this after improving the HE rounds.. then I would probably suggest that it could be better if that would be done more indirectly rather than in a direct way.
I mean that it would maybe make more sense if LMGs would be able to suppress nearby infantry units which are also protecting those tanks, this would still help the AT teams to safely close in or approach the enemy tanks. That would be better than designing the vehicle button ability to directly affect tanks.. as I believe the ability could be just completely re-worked into being a useful utility for LMGs versus infantry! That's just my opinion though :)

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Redgaarden
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby Redgaarden » 13 Jan 2018, 19:11

Would this allow Axis infantry to cancel out an activated 50 cal suppression fire ability on Shermans?


I dont think it will cancel it out. I think the ability affects the coxial and hull gunner too, so your squads will still be suppressed quite easily. Though, if it klls the 50 cal gunner it will disable the activation of the ability since it requires the top gunner.
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MarKr
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby MarKr » 13 Jan 2018, 20:23

drivebyhobo wrote:Would this allow Axis infantry to cancel out an activated 50 cal suppression fire ability on Shermans?

Redgaarden wrote:I dont think it will cancel it out. I think the ability affects the coxial and hull gunner too, so your squads will still be suppressed quite easily. Though, if it klls the 50 cal gunner it will disable the activation of the ability since it requires the top gunner.

I would need to check how the suppression ability works after being activated, but I think that once the opponent activates the ability, the suppression values of the top MG are buffed and so it suppresses faster, if that is the case then the Vehicle button ability would disable the top MG, it would no longer shoot and so it would not generate any suppression but the suppression it had already applied would remain on the affected squads. However if the ability even temporarily disables the top MG, the suppression ability would become dissabled for the duration too.

And no, we will not change it to kill the top gunner. Maybe we could have a look at adding it at some point later to snipers but adding such thing to infantry squads with LMGs (which appear more frequently than snipers) would severely hinder the efficiency of tanks in the game.
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby Jalis » 13 Jan 2018, 21:18

MarKr wrote: However if the ability even temporarily disables the top MG, the suppression ability would become dissabled for the duration too.



It seems suppression ability at bk focus on only one of the mg even the vehicle have several. However it is not always the top one. It makes senses since jagdpanzer have suppression ability but no top gunner for exemple.

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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby MarKr » 13 Jan 2018, 21:28

Yes, the ability is usually available only to vehicles that have some top MG and that is the MG that gets suppression buffs. It is also the reason why you cannot activate the ability when the top gun gets killed. I think it is Jagdpanther (not Jagdpanzer; but not sure though) that has the suppression ability but that is an exception - this one cannot be dissabled as there is not way to dissable hull MGs.

But what I said still stands - suppression ability is disabled when top gunner is dead and would be dissabled for the duration of the button ability too.
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby Jalis » 13 Jan 2018, 23:24

If I read correctly bk data, the problem is for about all PE jagd including the hetzer but at the exception of the jadtiger. It share panzer_elite_jagdpanzer_suppression_ability based on the hull mg on hardpoint 4. There is something to verifiy about the hetzer because it have irrc no hull mg, but a guided top mg.

If jagdpanzer vomag for panzer elite seems to have suppression, Alkett version for whermacht defensive have not. for logic I would have expect the inverse, considering orientation of a defensive doc, but I starting disgression I m afraid :lol:

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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Jan 2018, 13:53

It requires vet 1 to be used by PE TH. The reason why it got added is that these units were vulnerable to infantry. And at that time every PE unit was costly. So you had a expensive td with perhaps a single inf squad to cover it. So this ability got added to increase PE TD´s survivability. WH def doc can support theirs with lots of cheap other stuff like volks with lmgs and tons of pios that repair the tank in very few seconds.

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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby sgtToni95 » 14 Jan 2018, 16:45

Tiger1996 wrote:Back to the topic now, I just wanted to add something as regard to the vehicle button ability... I guess if the core intention of the change is that it would be some sort of a help to increase the chances of infantry when rushing tanks with top gunners since it became a bit too hard to achieve this after improving the HE rounds.. then I would probably suggest that it could be better if that would be done more indirectly rather than in a direct way.
I mean that it would maybe make more sense if LMGs would be able to suppress nearby infantry units which are also protecting those tanks, this would still help the AT teams to safely close in or approach the enemy tanks. That would be better than designing the vehicle button ability to directly affect tanks.. as I believe the ability could be just completely re-worked into being a useful utility for LMGs versus infantry! That's just my opinion though :)



I think this would mostly affect every other infantry engagement more than engamements against tanks. Moreover while your infantry is standing with an mg trying to suppress nearby infantry, tank will probably find even easier to kill that squad with an HE shot.

Not to mention the micro required to activate suppression from an lmg squad and moving AT squads in proper positions to harm the tank is really high, and it would probably fuck up the "attacker"'s move without the "defender" even needing to move the tank (just imagine grens + panther/stug/pz4j vs PIATs and Tommies, makes me laugh so hard just by thinking of it).

I think the solution should directly help infantry against tanks, which are now quite good at defending themselves against it even in a 1vsMany. In my opinion, a temporary ability forcing the mg gunner to hide inside the tank due to fire suppression could be a nice solution.

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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby MarKr » 14 Jan 2018, 17:39

There is already a ton of things that can suppress infantry quite fast (MGs, explosions...)and adding nother one would only make the life harder on infantry.
sgtToni95 wrote:I think the solution should directly help infantry against tanks, which are now quite good at defending themselves against it even in a 1vsMany. In my opinion, a temporary ability forcing the mg gunner to hide inside the tank due to fire suppression could be a nice solution.
I still think that the ability should apply also accuracy nerf on main gun - the HE shot can still mess up squads easily so this would make an infantry approach to the tank a bit safer. If you then move your squad through cover the chance of not getting hit would be quite good.
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Re: "Vehicle Button" ability rework

Postby kwok » 30 Jan 2018, 20:12

My guess at the intent of the vehicle button is to give the core CW infantry some AT capability, just as how riflemen had their rifle grenades unlocked across all docs, how volks are given faust, and how pgrens are given at nades.

Maybe the solution isn’t tweaking button vehicle but providing an entirely different capability with the same intent. For example, the rifle grenades upgrade gives the AT rifle grenade ability just like the USA riflemen. I feel we can come up with many other ideas cuz it seems like regardless of how button vehicle is tweaked, there will always be SOME players who feel it is “non sensical” in SOME aspect.


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