"Vehicle Button" ability rework

[MarKr]

Hello and merry christmas to all of you

We got to discussing the CW "Vehicle button" ability (the one that Tommies get with Brens - slowing down targetted vehicles, lowering their sight and disabling weapons for a period of time). This ability is sort of stupid in its rationale - shooting bullets at tanks (which were made to resist bullets) makes the tank inoperable for few seconds? We are thinking about possible ways of reworking the ability to something that makes more sense but still remains useful (at least in some situations).
Our idea was to rework the ability so that it disables the top MG for some time (let's say 15 seconds) - something like "focusing fire and forcing the gunner to take cover inside the tank". It might give more survivability to AT teams attacking tanks or other infantry using their "AT abilities.
This ability could also be given to other squads (e.g. Grens, Assault grens, Dekungs Storms...simply some squads with LMGs even on Axis side). The cost of the ability would probably be lower because the gunner would not be killed (so after the set time, the MG would be working again), most tanks have HE shots which can make short work of infantry, or the tank could simply drive away until the effect wears off, but disabling the MG on top for few moments might give a window of opportuninty for getting close to tanks that are already detracked or slowed down and finishing them off.

Would you be interested in such ability? Or, alternatively, do you have other ideas to rework this ability?

[Krieger Blitzer]

in my humble opinion, I would rather completely removing the ability, then giving the "sniper shot" ability of rifle section squads the possibility to snipe tank gunners, or maybe disable them! Perhaps regular snipers could also have such an ability as well, but maybe against vehicles too.. such as Recce.

Generally though, If you don't mind me talking about something similar, then I would say the hit and run tactics ability is actually even more ridiculous, because it also works the same, "scaring" the crew inside the tank and thus more or less disabling the tank movement for a while.. not to mention the enemy tank can be penetrated and killed too. Maybe the hit and run tactics could be replaced with Accurate Long Shot similar to Tigers? The ability would have to require 2 veterancy levels though.. but only for the M10 Wolverine, Achilles should lose hit and run.. for nothing in return.
And I would also love to see the Accurate Long Shot given to the Elephant instead of the stationary position ability.

I am aware the Accurate Long Shot ability (specifically for a cheap tank such as the M10) might be even more dangerous than hit and run tactics, but that's fine as long as the ability makes more sense. Accurate Long Shot is literally just an accurate shot that does never miss, which is fired from a long range, either 90 or 100 range.. but works against all kind of targets and not just tanks, which means that it can also be used to snipe enemy infantry!
However, it's still a normal shot. On the other hand though, the so called "hit and run tactics" ability is about 2 magic shots at a range of 80 which are suppressing the vehicle crew, but can also penetrate and kill enemy tanks. And even for no veterancy levels required at all...

[MarKr]

in my humble opinion, I would rather completely removing the ability, then giving the "sniper shot" ability of rifle section squads the possibility to snipe tank gunners, or maybe disable them! Perhaps regular snipers could also have such an ability as well, but maybe against vehicles too.. such as Recce.

We are not removing the Vehicle Button just to increase the capacity of Sniper shot that has every Tommy squad in the game.

Generally though, If you don't mind me talking about something similar(...)

This topic is about Vehicle button ability, don't drag it OT.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright then, let's only speak about the vehicle button ability here...

From my side, i would be defenitely interested to see this ability changed.. how exactly though? Not sure to be honest.

The idea you suggested does not sound like a bad one, though.. i doubt that it would be any useful.

I am running short on ideas regarding this matter at the moment.. but i still have some thoughts that I could probably share...
Maybe this ability should no longer work against vehicles in the first place? Perhaps it could be converted into some sort of suppression ability against infantry for all LMGs, except Johnsons though.. because they are not really LMGs and they are possible to be used while moving. So, if BARs can suppress.. then maybe all other LMGs should do the same!

If this idea isn't good enough.. then well, maybe just keep it as it is after all but just limit the ability to work against armoured cars only, and no longer against tanks.

Let's see if anyone else maybe has anything to suggest in that concern though...

[maousaki]

I guess heavy gunfire can distract the crew of a vehicle, but not in the degree this ability does it. Maybe a shorter view range and an accuracy debuff is logical, but then again if an ability like this will ever be useful is another question.

[sgtToni95]

Thanks for christmas wishes, i'm certainly glad to see our workaholic team is never resting even during christmas holidays

Regarding the ability i actually thought of using sniper shot ability on mg gunner even before i read your solution, which i don't dislike since PIATs are a little annoying to use against any vehicle if not behind some kind of cover, so, giving them a little support would not be bad at all.

What worries me is: i already find "stunning tank" ability that tommies have really hard to use since its range isn't the best and as soon as the tank falls back the ability stops affecting it. I very rarelly managed to activate that before i needed to run away from the deadly mg fire so, even if it's not the most realistical mechanich, i think its pros and cons make it kind of balanced.

Giving them a suppression ability like the one Bars have wouldn't be bad either: iirc British army asked for brens' accuracy to be lowered to make it more of a suppressive weapon than a killing machine, so this would have some historical background to support it. In bk tho, killing is usually more important than just suppressing and, expecially when rambos of any kind are on the field, this ability wouldn't really be the most useful, but still something.

One other idea i got, to keep this sort of AT "side effect" for tommies, would be, after upgrading them with the grenade launcher, to give them a phosphorous grenade (which i really have no idea if it existed or not so i say sorry in advance), with the same effect phosphorous rounds have for hellcat and staghoud. Duration might be shorter since it's a smaller projectile, range, shell velocity and accuracy would just make it not so easy to use.
The effect would pretty much be the same of "bullet vehicle suppression", just with some more realism in it i think.

[MarKr]

We are looking for rework or tweak of the ability that the squad receives with Bren upgrade so ideas for "stock" abilities or abilities gained with Rifle nades don't meet the requirement

The idea with "suppressing top MG" was meant to help with the issue of AT squads. After they gained the 2 second aim time, they became way more vulnerable, mainly because during those 2 seconds they are under fire from the MG which manages to suppress or kill them (especially if the AT team runs in without any cover - the MGs are then more accurate and deadly). There is still chance to get shot with the HE but the combination of HE and MG fire makes any infantry approach hard, this would take away one of the factors. Also we could add it to some Axis units too - Axis have more "close range" AT abilities such as AT nades or the HLL3 (is that name right? don't know...) or Panzerfausts so they would be able to use these with less threat for the squad.

[Kr0noZ]

Here's the thing:
The way that "Button down" works is they spam bullets at parts like the mirrors that allow people inside the tank to see out (they are made from glas and there are protective shutters to prevent them from getting damaged, but if you close those you can't see out anymore).
So basically it simply blinds the driver (so he can't see where he's going), the gunner (so he can't aim anymore) and the commander, and somebody sitting in the top hatch would take cover inside and can't do crap anymore. So in theory, this should make a tank mostly blind, but technically it should still be able to move some what and returning fire is possible with MGs, but firing blind is obviously rather inaccurate.
So the way it works right now isn't wrong, but it should disable or massively debuff the top gunner on top of it (making this ability even better)

[Redgaarden]

So the way it works right now isn't wrong, but it should disable or massively debuff the top gunner on top of it (making this ability even better)

You can actually see the top gunner going into hiding when the ability is activated.

I dont mind if it only affects the gunner if the ability becomes free, has same range as brens, and doesn't require the tommy squad to focus all their effort into a single hmg.
I really hate top gunners on tanks, and really hate that when there are 12 rifles shooting at it no one can kill the gunner. Even snipers can't even hit the gunners, they just somehow become really innaccurate when shoting at tanks.

[MarKr]

Here's the thing:
The way that "Button down" works is they spam bullets at parts like the mirrors that allow people inside the tank to see out (they are made from glas and there are protective shutters to prevent them from getting damaged, but if you close those you can't see out anymore).
So basically it simply blinds the driver (so he can't see where he's going), the gunner (so he can't aim anymore) and the commander, and somebody sitting in the top hatch would take cover inside and can't do crap anymore. So in theory, this should make a tank mostly blind, but technically it should still be able to move some what and returning fire is possible with MGs, but firing blind is obviously rather inaccurate.
So the way it works right now isn't wrong, but it should disable or massively debuff the top gunner on top of it (making this ability even better)

Still - if there is one shutter for driver, hull-MG gunner, main-gunner, commander - those are 4 relatively small targets that the Bren needs to "spam with bullets" + they need to spam some bullets on the dude operating the top MG...that is a lot of places to aim at even for 2 Bren guns in one squad.
And the fact that it lowers the speed of the vehicle and dissables all guns is just seems as very heavy penalty considering that it all happens thanks to a single dude with Bren

Maybe lowered vision could stay but instead of -90% it could be like -40% and lower accuracy of main gun (let's say -30% ?) + the MG gunner would be disabled? It sounds like less BS than what it currently does. In return for nerfing the ability the price could go down form 25 to 10 - 15 (I don't think it should be completely free) and the range could be increased as Red said.
How does that sound?

[Kr0noZ]

I think the current way is basically unchanged from vCoH? At least it sounds like that.
If you feel like changing that, I'm not going to stop you xD

[MarKr]

Wolf said that at some point in the past BK changed the target's speed reduction - in vCoH it used to be like 90% and BK changed it to 70% or so. But I think the rest is from vCoH.

Oh and I just noticed an error in my previous post, it does not reduce vision by 90% but 99%

[Warhawks97]

perhaps it should require at least two brens.

It reduces vision of the tank by approx 50% (reasons mentioned above) and froces the top gunner to search cover inside.

That would be quite nice so far

What else to say to other mentioned posts.

I agree that i hate top mounts on tanks. They are generally hard to hit and kill in general. Furthermore that the anti infantry capability depends often only on them (sure HE rounds exist but still). I often retreat my tanks just bc my top gunner is dead. A damaged engine os often less a pain as to lose this single dude... It often feels like that tank has lost all its capabilties to defend themselves against inf. This single dude makes up like 80% of the tanks anti infantry power.


Can we expect a topic about the hit and run tactics on M10 anytime soon? Where you devs make a suggestion how to tweak/replace/improve it?
Just asking.

[MarKr]

perhaps it should require at least two brens.

hmmm....maybe, but given the fact that this sort of change would be nerf to the ability, postponing it by 2xBren upgrade requirement might be too much of nerf.

Can we expect a topic about the hit and run tactics on M10 anytime soon? Where you devs make a suggestion how to tweak/replace/improve it?
Just asking.

No, there is no topic planned on discussing tweaks/replacements/improvements on Hit and Run ability. It is getting removed.
Just saying.

[Krieger Blitzer]

It is getting removed.

Well, that's actually very good to hear!
I am glad how Bk Mod is eventually getting rid of such ridiculous abilities one by one.. as I can still remember the old times when we had such silly abilities like tread breaker for AT teams, as well as engine ignite by the Croc, and the list just goes on...

[Warhawks97]

What about two brens, more range, suppressing top gunner and vision reduction by 50%? That for example could change CW gameplay a bit. infantry that can help friendly tanks to flank/close in easier and to make the first hit on the enemie.

Idk how that sounds to others.

It is getting removed.

Well, that's actually very good to hear!
I am glad how Bk Mod is eventually getting rid of such ridiculous abilities one by one.. as I can still remember the old times when we had such silly abilities like tread breaker for AT teams, as well as engine ignite by the Croc, and the list just goes on...

me too.

[Redgaarden]

That souns pretty weak to me. You use an entire fullyupgraded squad have to pay a small fee. To remove one top gunner and a bit of sight reduxtion? And while doing so they have to sit complerly still shooting the tank. I would prefer the deply marksman just killed the gunner.

[mofetagalactica]

^ indeed , i would also preffer to replace it for a marskman shooting at the top mg gunner, but i don't know how that will work with top mg's like the hetzer or stug, all other changes that were said so far where really really weak, also its a shame what happened with hit and run tactics hability, i guess crying and crying about the hability in every post like tiger does kinda "helps".

[Krieger Blitzer]

also its a shame what happened with hit and run tactics hability, i guess crying and crying about the hability in every post like tiger does kinda "helps".

Hmm.. is this statement necessary man? I wouldn't have ever expected it coming from you to be honest.

Hold on though, how is it suddenly considered "crying" when I suggest replacing the "hit and run tactics" ability with something even better such as the "accurate long shot" in return? Or does the H & R tactics ability make more sense to you when somehow it manages to suppress the crew of the targeted tank from such a long distance while also killing it with 1 shot sometimes?!
Did you actually know that this ability would still suppress the targeted tank even when your M10 can't shoot due to a natural obstacle blocking the sight? I mean, for example.. if your M10 is behind a wall of trees... And then you active the ability at some enemy tank.. the enemy tank will already get suppressed as long as the H & R ability is active... Even when your M10 is unable to shoot because of the trees blocking the sight!!!
So, I really wonder...
How exactly is it a shame to remove this ability or suggest replacing it with something more believable such as the ALRS ability on the other hand?

Also, why would you suddenly call me "crying" when I talk about how the H & R ability is ridiculous?
I mean, would you also consider yourself "crying" when you complain about the SturmTiger?

Mate, please... I hope everyone would just appreciate the fact that people can agree together on 1 thing, but at the same time.. the same people could also disagree together on a different thing, but this doesn't make anyone suddenly pathetic.
For example... As you might have already noticed.. me and Hawks are both on a disagreement regarding the SturmTiger and 76 Shermans, but we actually both agree together about the new changes to the Comets as well as removing the hit and run tactics ability!
Would it then be sane enough to start flaming on each other just for disagreeing at some point??!! While completely ignoring the fact that we also agree on different subjects? Or is just "disagreeing" on something, suddenly is an opportunity to call either any of us "crying" or whatnot?

I hope my core message is well delivered, Mofeta.

[mofetagalactica]

also its a shame what happened with hit and run tactics hability, i guess crying and crying about the hability in every post like tiger does kinda "helps".

Hmm.. is this statement necessary man? I wouldn't have ever expected it coming from you to be honest.

You're right its not crying its just spamming.
Deleting this hability and not just think and replace it with another hability its a shame this its just a plain nerf to USA armor since everything in his 76' arsenal is shit anyway compared to the axis counterpart.
Tiger i have never saw you suggesting changes like accurate long shot for m10's without asking something crazy in exchange.
And now we will get another shamefull change to bren's maybe and im pretty sure they don't have any idea of the use that has right now and what use will have in the future after changes i feel like they don't have enought experience playing pvp and using creible tactics that aren't just like the appear in papper.

Also Tiger and warhawks just accepting easily just like that the removal of an hability, not proud really regarding of what i have saw from you in this forum.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Tiger i have never saw you suggesting changes like accurate long shot for m10's without asking something crazy in exchange.

Something crazy in exchange.. such as??

Also Tiger and warhawks just accepting easily just like that the removal of an hability, not proud really regarding of what i have saw from you in this forum.

I hate to put it this way.. but with all due respect, it's not like I really care if you are proud of what I'm posting here or not! However, it's interesting to see how you are suddenly not proud once I disagree with you! Maybe u will be proud again when we get to agree at some point... Who knows.

[mofetagalactica]

What does this has to do with agreing or not agreing with you? , Im just saying that its a shame that both of you guys that use to find better ways to improve or fix habilities but suddently happily acept the easiest way (removing an hability) by just agreeing without even saying anithing.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Fine then.. if you really think there are better solutions that could be done regarding this ability rather than just removing it, then let's just open a new topic about it. You could surely also do that urself whenever you want...
And I would gladly participate in the discussion with some ideas too.

[Warhawks97]

What does this has to do with agreing or not agreing with you? , Im just saying that its a shame that both of you guys that use to find better ways to improve or fix habilities but suddently happily acept the easiest way (removing an hability) by just agreeing without even saying anithing.

Not quite sure what you are talking about here. We have made suggestions how it could be replaced. Tiger had this idea with an ALRS, i suggested to replace it with a phosphoreus shot just like the M18 (Or M24 chaffe) can use (it stuns the tank. I also suggested to improve this ability)

The "Hit and run" ability was crap in my opinion for ages. I think the reasons got pointed out enough.


I agree that the 76 weapons from US are crap most of their time. But if i considered any of them as to be usefull and cost effective from time to time, it was then those of the M10 (but also M18).

I am using the M10 for ages already without ever using this ability. Not that this one could have changed a game from time to time. Its just that i prefer taking a loss rather than using a silly ability (or unit). Silly in the way they work. And i can say with all respects that i have used the M10 quite successfully many times. Sure, sometimes i got frustrated when things didnt work as expected. But the M10 is nonetheless my main anti tank unit, regardless of the doctrine. Just like the Hetzer for PE, the M10 is a unit i always get when playing as US... either sooner or later.
And i never felt like such an ability is necessary for the M10.

The 76 of the M10 (and M18) do also not suffer from the ridiculuos reload time the 76 shermans have. Its is short as 4.2 seconds standard (sherman has 7 sec) and even shorter from ambush and shorter with vet. And unlike the 76 mounted on 76 shermans, the M10 (and M18) can penetrate medium armor effectively as long as they fire from ambush.

So as a defensive tool in your army (but also from time to time a quick self propelled howitzer hunter) the M10 is pretty decently and also cost effective. Something you cant say about your 76 shermans. So the ability is nothing you need in order to make to have your M10 usefull.

the HEAT shot (which has shorter ranged) as afaik a guranteed penetration against Panthers. One shot makes you cost 75 ammo, but a guranteed pen vs a Panther is pretty rare among allied guns. So the M10 has already something no other unit has (and can achieve).

[Redgaarden]

the HEAT shot (which has shorter ranged) as afaik a guranteed penetration against Panthers. One shot makes you cost 75 ammo, but a guranteed pen vs a Panther is pretty rare among allied guns. So the M10 has already something no other unit has (and can achieve).

My expirence with the HEAT shot is that it doesn't kill cost way too much and there are better alternatives.
I used it against a panther, and the tank suddenly went crazy and charged the panther. Due to extrmely slow turret rotation, it didn't even get to shoot the ability before the panter one hit killed the m10. In conclusion, I would say that the HVAP is a much better alternative. Not only does it have increased range, it also has more shots. And 1 HEAT rounds + Regular AP round has a lower chance of killing a Panther compared to 2 HVAP rounds.

were said so far where really really weak, also its a shame what happened with hit and run tactics hability, i guess crying and crying about the hability in every post like tiger does kinda "helps".

It was thoroughly discussed, it was suggest to replace the ability since H&R is a bit too wanky even for our standards. The replacemt of the ability, "Phsophour rounds" was suggested but I objected since the ability hardly works. I wouldn't mind the phsphourus rounds, IF they disable the maingun of the affected target.