Remove BAR suppresion

[Jagdpanther]

LMG's that fire many more bullets than the BAR can't suppress but the BAR can? wtf?

[Warhawks97]

LMG's that fire many more bullets than the BAR can't suppress but the BAR can? wtf?

And bren can pin tanks which is more hilarious. I would rather reduce sprint speed of squads with lmgs and AT weapons and in return suppression ability to those with lmg. That would bring some more diversity and squads could fill either a supportive role or an assault role with light armed one for assault with mpis and stgs. Right now there are squads with MPi´s, lmgs and at weapons and those sprint as fast as those which have only MPi´s and stgs.

[Xylis]

Sure, except BAR is the most useless weapon upgrade in the game. You pay 45 munitions for 2 BARs, both of which don't hit squat and have no magazine size. In comparision volks can get an MG34 (75 munition) which kills extremely well, or MP40 for 50 munition, which also kills very well at short range. Basically BAR is only decent at short range, and if you want to riflemen at short range you might as well get M3 Grease Gun for better performance. The single redeeming feature of BAR is that supression ability, which you need to pay 45 munitions to merely get the ability to use it. In short to use one BAR suppression you have to pay 65 munitions...
Whereas other counterparts will suppress for free...and kill (eg MG42 and MG34)
Basically the only good riflemen weapon is the rifle grenades because of the ability to shoot further, smoke and AT grenade, but compared to volk panzerfaust its shit, the only good thing is range.
Pretty much, riflemen are basically trash, paying for weapon upgrades on them makes them slightly less trashy, but nonetheless still trash.
Even Brit Tommy squads are having a way better time, with 55 munitions for 1 Bren gun (upgradeable twice, as well as riflegrenade = 2 Bren 1 rifle grenade). Bren is noticeably far superior to BAR, and only costs 10 more munitions ( 55 vs 45).
The only time BAR is viable is after infantry doctrine mass production, but thats after 4 CP's and at that point you may as well just buy Rangers...
In short, make BAR far cheaper (20 or 30 muni) or make it stronger to compete with superior Axis weapons. To balance it you could only make them available after Weapon Support Center, kinda makes sense to me in that regard.

[Warhawks97]

Sure, except BAR is the most useless weapon upgrade in the game. You pay 45 munitions for 2 BARs, both of which don't hit squat and have no magazine size. In comparision volks can get an MG34 (75 munition) which kills extremely well, or MP40 for 50 munition, which also kills very well at short range. Basically BAR is only decent at short range, and if you want to riflemen at short range you might as well get M3 Grease Gun for better performance. The single redeeming feature of BAR is that supression ability, which you need to pay 45 munitions to merely get the ability to use it. In short to use one BAR suppression you have to pay 65 munitions...
Whereas other counterparts will suppress for free...and kill (eg MG42 and MG34)
Basically the only good riflemen weapon is the rifle grenades because of the ability to shoot further, smoke and AT grenade, but compared to volk panzerfaust its shit, the only good thing is range.
Pretty much, riflemen are basically trash, paying for weapon upgrades on them makes them slightly less trashy, but nonetheless still trash.
Even Brit Tommy squads are having a way better time, with 55 munitions for 1 Bren gun (upgradeable twice, as well as riflegrenade = 2 Bren 1 rifle grenade). Bren is noticeably far superior to BAR, and only costs 10 more munitions ( 55 vs 45).
The only time BAR is viable is after infantry doctrine mass production, but thats after 4 CP's and at that point you may as well just buy Rangers...
In short, make BAR far cheaper (20 or 30 muni) or make it stronger to compete with superior Axis weapons. To balance it you could only make them available after Weapon Support Center, kinda makes sense to me in that regard.

agreed. I am currently using rifles with standard equipment of grease gun. There isnt really a difference in firepower when they get BAR. One BAR cost 45 and two cost 90 but are not as good as a single mg34. a year ago i wrote that to devs but we didnt go into details or how to change it somehow and the matter got lost. The advantage is that they can fire while moving and relatively short reload times and that the squad can shoot at two different units at the same time (which isnt a real advantage when they deal no real damage. Also they told me when i asked why one upgrade for 75 ammo is so much better in damage than two upgrades for 90 ammo. Few days ago two players wrote/asked me why the BAR is so crap but idk who it was. Maybe illa and another one.

I am not sure whether the bren has better stats than BAR or if the brits inf section has simply better stats than riflemen. Using rifle squads during the entire game is freaking hard and the rifle nade makes sense when being used by several squads and with captain (otherwise accuracy is horrible, takes away weapon slot or upgrade possibility and each shot cost 20 ammo. I dont know why rifle nade on US rifle squad takes away a slot while panzerfaust for volks doesnt (not sure about brits rifle nade upgrade and if they can take 2 brens and 1 rifle nade upgrade). Would help inf and AB doc if these rifle nade upgrade would not take away a weapon slot and if they would be available after WSC.

The suppression cost 40 ammo but unless you have two BAR´s the squad doesnt suppress (or only very bad) and 40 ammo wasted.

[Xylis]

agreed. I am currently using rifles with standard equipment of grease gun. There isnt really a difference in firepower when they get BAR. One BAR cost 45 and two cost 90 but are not as good as a single mg34. a year ago i wrote that to devs but we didnt go into details or how to change it somehow and the matter got lost. The advantage is that they can fire while moving and relatively short reload times and that the squad can shoot at two different units at the same time (which isnt a real advantage when they deal no real damage. Also they told me when i asked why one upgrade for 75 ammo is so much better in damage than two upgrades for 90 ammo. Few days ago two players wrote/asked me why the BAR is so crap but idk who it was. Maybe illa and another one.

I am not sure whether the bren has better stats than BAR or if the brits inf section has simply better stats than riflemen. Using rifle squads during the entire game is freaking hard and the rifle nade makes sense when being used by several squads and with captain (otherwise accuracy is horrible, takes away weapon slot or upgrade possibility and each shot cost 20 ammo. I dont know why rifle nade on US rifle squad takes away a slot while panzerfaust for volks doesnt (not sure about brits rifle nade upgrade and if they can take 2 brens and 1 rifle nade upgrade). Would help inf and AB doc if these rifle nade upgrade would not take away a weapon slot and if they would be available after WSC.

The suppression cost 40 ammo but unless you have two BAR´s the squad doesnt suppress (or only very bad) and 40 ammo wasted.

Yes, I think the whole 90 muni for two BAR vs 75 for one MG34 is ridiculous, the BAR may shoot on the move, but never hits anything. Even in green cover with a captain support often the bar will completely miss. And the whole 'reload relatively faster' is cancelled out by that the BAR magazine is incredibly small (20 shots from real life), most of which will miss and be useless. I am not sure how many rounds the MG34 or MG42 shoots, but I'm guessing around 35-50?
I only ever build 1 riflemen in the early game, to give them riflegrenades, and use them as basically mobile grenade platforms. Also I have noticed that armour doctrine doesn't get riflegrenades for some reason, which makes them completely useless. If I plan on playing armour I never build them, better to wait until rangers who can actually kill something. The only use I have for riflemen is when I get them for free from triage/ambulance truck, and use them to build sandbags and recrew heavy weapons. Even volks have late game use if you give them MG34 and put them in green cover to defend.

I have found that the Bren is an excellent gun. Even volks or riflemen pick it up they are very good at killing. I think the Bren is one of the few Allied weapons which is actually effective and competitive with Axis counterparts, because of low rate of fire the Bren is very accurate, usually hitting 60-70% of rounds at targets in no cover (compared to MG34 or 42 which will hit around 50% but fire their magazine MUCH faster), and decent damage per bullet. Yes Brit Tommy has better stats than riflemen but often I notice they don't get many kills until Bren is upgraded, maybe just situational but that's what I've seen.

And yes I have found that with Brit Tommy you can have 2 Bren and 1 riflegrenade, I always use this configuration if I get the munitions to spare, and at 55muni per Bren I usually do (I always upgrade in order of riflegrenade, bren bren, maybe the order has something to do with how many weapons available?).

[lunarwolf]

yep suppression in this game is fubar, a bar w/ 20 round clip can suppress but a tank with 3mg can't

[Warhawks97]

the suppression stuff is really a bit messed up thats true.


So CW inf can get two lmgs+ rifle nade but US can get one rifle nade and then just one BAR or two grease guns.... very interesting.

When i give volks lmg 34 they are pretty effective against most targets and not seldomly they quickly get vet 3 or more then.


Once US could upgrade rifle nades right at start for all docs.... it was called OP and so got removed from AB and armor doc and inf got it only after motorpool. It was a huge overnerf and kicked the weapon out of players minds. It came back to AB at least thx to wolf. Still its crazy that it comes so late when nobody uses rifle squads anymore and then takes away an upgrade/weapon slot altough each shot cost again 20 ammo. If it wouldnt take away a weapon slot and available after WSC is build it could be a lot more usefull and since allis weapons are supposed to get on medium-close range to be effective or to stand a chance at least it wouldnt be really unfair and some early games wouldnt get so borring by endless walls of hmg42´s and paks with HE round as rifle nades could deal with that a bit easier. The early game decides whether it becomes and interesting mobile warfare game with lots of tactical moves or simply a boring arty camping game and since the quantity relation in early game is so far the same on axis and allis side allis have not many options to get close enough for effective shooting (though map depending but on most its the case).
"overuse" of it in early game wont be much of an issue as ammo cost would restrict that.


Also an idea we had is to give Panzerfaust as global upgrade for axis so that all volks and grens would have them while allis would have rifle grenades as global upgrade for their basic inf units.