Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

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shogun
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Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby shogun » 06 Dec 2017, 15:25

Hi there everyone.
I have been playing BK mod for many years now and enjoy this mod so much but still you always stumble across some few annoying or disappointing things which need some improvement.
From patch to another I was always waiting for this 2 issues to be solved. They were not, so I thought that i should post about it.

1 - The Panzerwerfer definitely should do more damage and need to have a more spread area of effect (not all the rockets hitting one spot). Also I think it should have an option for high angle of firing just like the nebelwerfer.

2 - The stuka dive bomber (Single bomb) should do more damage or at least should have a way bigger aoe. Not to mention the slow speed it has making it a perfect target for AA but that is another discussion ( AA vs planes in general). I don't want to sound like an ass**** but that bomb drop animation which looks like in in slow motion is really dumb.
Personally, I would love to bring back and replace it by the stuka strafe bombing that was in the older versions of the mod.

I know most of this has probably been discussed at some point before but it's really stuff like that (especially when compared to other games : MOW, COH2... modded versions) are what makes the mod sometimes "frustrating" and fun "incomplete" to a certain degree.
Don't get me wrong BK mod is my most favorite game and will always be. Thanks to all the devs (Old ones and new ones) for this mod and have a good day :)

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MarKr
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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby MarKr » 06 Dec 2017, 15:54

1) Duuuude, come on! You mustn't talk about Panzerwerfer/Maultier hier! Tiger will come, read it, and then we will have to read once again his "Maultier needs to mess up emplacements" talk :lol:

2) Hmmm....Stuka plane is actually faster than Henschels but yes, it is slower than CW/US planes. I don't know if there is some reason behind it but if they have this speed "because it was set this way" we might increase it.
Bomb drop animation could be made faster but even bombs dropped from US planes have the same speed so I'm not sure if it is really needed.
For straffing we now have ME109, there is no real need to reverse that back to Stuka ;)
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Tiger1996
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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Dec 2017, 16:15

MarKr wrote:Tiger will come, read it, and then we will have to read once again his "Maultier needs to mess up emplacements" talk :lol:

HeeeLLooOOoo! :D

shogun wrote:1 - The Panzerwerfer definitely should do more damage and need to have a more spread area of effect (not all the rockets hitting one spot). Also I think it should have an option for high angle of firing just like the nebelwerfer.

Welcome to the forum! And I have to firmly agree on this one :)
And by the way, it's also called the "Opel Maultier" rocket launcher truck in Blitz doctrine.

MarKr wrote:Hmmm....Stuka plane is actually faster than Henschels but yes, it is slower than CW/US planes. I don't know if there is some reason behind it but if they have this speed "because it was set this way" we might increase it.

I think it was made like that based on some realism/historical facts, given how the Stuka was actually slower.
And I think the animation is actually fine!

MarKr wrote:For straffing we now have ME109, there is no real need to reverse that back to Stuka ;)

I think he meant Stuka airstrike from version 4.9.5 when the Stuka aircraft used to drop the same bombs as the FW-190 load-out.
The FW-190 bombs were obviously much more destructive against all kind of targets.. since the bombs would have a wider area of scatter.. but anyway, currently most people would pick up the Stuka patrol instead of the single Stuka bomber airstrike, which is a must have against emplacements...
So I would also say that it's now just fine as it is.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Dec 2017, 18:28

shogun wrote:
1 - The Panzerwerfer definitely should do more damage and need to have a more spread area of effect (not all the rockets hitting one spot). Also I think it should have an option for high angle of firing just like the nebelwerfer.


German rocket artillery gains accuracy (reduced scatter) with every veteran level. This is fucking dump in my opinion. Also they gain damage boosts by vet.

For the 150 mm rockets. Increase damage in the center of the explosion/hit. Every arty actually increases the basic damage by 50% in the direct center of the explosion in an area of apporx 2 which is actually a direct hit. The 210 doubles its basic damage of 350 The 150 have (100-150) in the center of the hit.
So what to do:

1. Increase damage in the hit center by 50%.
2. Reduce their basic damage against tanks by 25% (like alli arty vs tanks or axis 210 nebler).
3. Remove damage increase by veterancy and the reduced scatter. You just cant make your missiles fly more accurate by vet. I mean allis rocket reduces not the scatter by vet and behaves much more logical in many aspects.


And i wouldnt add vertical fire angel. I dont even know why such abilties for rocket arty exists. Nebels have taken it over from vcoh.

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shogun
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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby shogun » 06 Dec 2017, 19:57

MarKr wrote:1) Duuuude, come on! You mustn't talk about Panzerwerfer/Maultier hier! Tiger will come, read it, and then we will have to read once again his "Maultier needs to mess up emplacements" talk :lol:


LOL sorry i wasn't aware :lol:

Anyway about the stuka what you said guys seems fair enough.

About the Panzerwerfer/Maultier, I do agree with Warhawks that at least it should be more spread (not sure about the damage values though). Because I believe in general the main role of rocket artillery historically was to suppress large formations of forces (mainly infantry) in a large zone (due to scattering) or softening multiples defense positions before the main assault.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Dec 2017, 21:11

shogun wrote:
MarKr wrote:1) Duuuude, come on! You mustn't talk about Panzerwerfer/Maultier hier! Tiger will come, read it, and then we will have to read once again his "Maultier needs to mess up emplacements" talk :lol:


LOL sorry i wasn't aware :lol:

Anyway about the stuka what you said guys seems fair enough.

About the Panzerwerfer/Maultier, I do agree with Warhawks that at least it should be more spread (not sure about the damage values though). Because I believe in general the main role of rocket artillery historically was to suppress large formations of forces (mainly infantry) in a large zone (due to scattering) or softening multiples defense positions before the main assault.



thx,thx,thx,thx....thx again.

:D

Regarding the 150 mm rockets, the damage ranges from 100-150 standard. +- depending on the one or other target table. To get a feeling: 105 arty has usually 335 with 50% more right where it hits and reducing the further away something is. Axis tanks have way better resistants to arty.

However, by veterancy damage increases.

The 210 nebler has basic 350 damage, doubling in the very center of the hit and some damage reduction to tanks (still almost instant kill shermans when hitting them directly). Does this help as orientation?:D

about the stuka i cant say that much. If i played i then used the patrole as well. Even if the bomb looks "a bit ugly" what i dont think so far, i do like the way how its preciously dropped on the target and destryoing hit in a huge bang. It looks very different to the allied one. The allied bombs have more "pure explosion" why the stuka bomb throws all that dirt up which looks more realistic.

The old Fw190 bomb raid was extremely deadly due to the many bombs that were dealing a lot of damage. But it didnt fit for the stuka for several reasons. Firstly the stuka couldnt carry this many bombs at once and the way they get dropped dont really fit in the way stukas were used.

Gameplay wise it was in my opinion quite OP since it was more a mix of CW cluster bomb when it comes to Aoe and infantry killing paired with the P-47 bomb raid that blows up tanks and stuff. And Luftwaffe doctrine doesnt need one such massive all killing high expensive strike i think.

Out of one super deadly strike that blasted just everything like an A-10 strike we now have a mix of specific raid abilities against certain threats and targets. You have access now to more raids that you can use exactly against a certain target. The Fw 190 type strike was just too... too strong as that it could really find a target worth it. I mean i had very rare occassions were i felt that this 250 ammo raid that could kill entire armies were worth using. I mean how often does it happen that you face multiple vehicles, emplacments and inf in such a line that you would call it. I hadnt many moments. Now you have more cheap stuff that can find absolutely worthy targets. And you are less often thinking "is this emplacment worth it". Coz you wont do anything more than exactly this.

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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Dec 2017, 22:11

By the way, I just want to clarify that in fact the Maultier currently deals decent damage against most emplacements.. even the US 76mm AT gun emplacements get burnt quite easily, but in return those inf doctrine emplacements are repaired and constructed too quickly... Which is indeed fine as long as they are not too tough to kill by the Maultier. However, the main issue is the RE doc 17pdr emplacements; as they almost take zero damage on the other hand. I am not saying that the RE doc emplacements should be burnt by the Maultier as quickly as the 76 emplacements.. but what I am saying is that the RE doc 17pdr emplacements should either take a bit more damage at least, or not get repaired and constructed in such a light speed.

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MarKr
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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby MarKr » 06 Dec 2017, 22:46

shogun wrote:LOL sorry i wasn't aware :lol:
See the post above? Told ya :lol:
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shogun
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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby shogun » 06 Dec 2017, 22:50

Warhawks97 wrote:thx,thx,thx,thx....thx again.

:D

Regarding the 150 mm rockets, the damage ranges from 100-150 standard. +- depending on the one or other target table. To get a feeling: 105 arty has usually 335 with 50% more right where it hits and reducing the further away something is. Axis tanks have way better resistants to arty.

However, by veterancy damage increases.

The 210 nebler has basic 350 damage, doubling in the very center of the hit and some damage reduction to tanks (still almost instant kill shermans when hitting them directly). Does this help as orientation?:D

about the stuka i cant say that much. If i played i then used the patrole as well. Even if the bomb looks "a bit ugly" what i dont think so far, i do like the way how its preciously dropped on the target and destryoing hit in a huge bang. It looks very different to the allied one. The allied bombs have more "pure explosion" why the stuka bomb throws all that dirt up which looks more realistic.

The old Fw190 bomb raid was extremely deadly due to the many bombs that were dealing a lot of damage. But it didnt fit for the stuka for several reasons. Firstly the stuka couldnt carry this many bombs at once and the way they get dropped dont really fit in the way stukas were used.

Gameplay wise it was in my opinion quite OP since it was more a mix of CW cluster bomb when it comes to Aoe and infantry killing paired with the P-47 bomb raid that blows up tanks and stuff. And Luftwaffe doctrine doesnt need one such massive all killing high expensive strike i think.

Out of one super deadly strike that blasted just everything like an A-10 strike we now have a mix of specific raid abilities against certain threats and targets. You have access now to more raids that you can use exactly against a certain target. The Fw 190 type strike was just too... too strong as that it could really find a target worth it. I mean i had very rare occassions were i felt that this 250 ammo raid that could kill entire armies were worth using. I mean how often does it happen that you face multiple vehicles, emplacments and inf in such a line that you would call it. I hadnt many moments. Now you have more cheap stuff that can find absolutely worthy targets. And you are less often thinking "is this emplacment worth it". Coz you wont do anything more than exactly this.


i couldn't agree more. Thanks for the explanation :D

Tiger1996 wrote:By the way, I just want to clarify that in fact the Maultier currently deals decent damage against most emplacements.. even the US 76mm AT gun emplacements get burnt quite easily, but in return those inf doctrine emplacements are repaired and constructed too quickly... Which is indeed fine as long as they are not too tough to kill by the Maultier. However, the main issue is the RE doc 17pdr emplacements; as they almost take zero damage on the other hand. I am not saying that the RE doc emplacements should be burnt by the Maultier as quickly as the 76 emplacements.. but what I am saying is that the RE doc 17pdr emplacements should either take a bit more damage at least, or not get repaired and constructed in such a light speed.


Yeah, I noticed that too. The RE 17pdr emplacement repair rate is a bit ridiculous (Well they are hardcore engineers so they fix everything quickly i suppose :lol:)

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Warhawks97
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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Dec 2017, 00:19

shogun wrote:


i couldn't agree more. Thanks for the explanation :D


you are welcome :)




Yeah, I noticed that too. The RE 17pdr emplacement repair rate is a bit ridiculous (Well they are hardcore engineers so they fix everything quickly i suppose :lol:)


The same goes the other way arround as well. Just pick def doc and you get advanced repairs instantly for all your pioneer squads. And they are cheap.

I had countless moments over years were i threw all shit against bunkers and 88, leaving them with few hp left, and untill my guns cooled down, all was repaired back to max. You killed a pios squad? 2 more running arround. I saw def doc players which infantry force consisted literally just of 5 pio squads that repaired defenses and tanks all day long so quick. So i think this is an experience both sides can tell huge stories.

Sometimes you saw people even using bergetieger on bunkers + the normal def doc doc pios.

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Re: Panzerwerfer and Stuka rework

Postby kwok » 13 Dec 2017, 18:30

Giving blitz doc more artillery buffs will make them essentially indistinguishable from terror doctrine with only its skin as a differentiator. Plus the amount of balance adjustments for what blitz is compared to terror due to added capability would be painful. If anything, I’d the panzerwerfer is so useless I say get rid of it all together. Armor doc doesn’t have arty and still holds up as a working doctrine. Blitz can be the same.


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