Limit every sniper to 1.

Do you have a balancing problem or do you want to make a suggestion for the game? You are at the right place.

Limit sniper to 1 in any faction *just like pe has*?

Yes, limit all faction sniper's to one.
12
52%
No, keep them as they are
11
48%
 
Total votes: 23

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 28 Oct 2017, 18:26

Hey, i wanna bring some point's here why just 2 sniper's are brutal bs so, you know i am not good writtin text of wall's unless other People here so i hope you understand this and can translate it for me in commentary's ok lets begin. first example us vs pe sceneario as i see People start love fight the 'weak us against op pe' reason. "double sniper's" as i once wanted fight a pe as british, a guy came over and said " let me fight pe i have sniper's". Guess why this is so? pe have fucking nothing against sniper's schwimm= haha a bad joke, when sniper's are out so are Jeeps and if Jeep is dead well it dies to anything driving up to search a sniper is suicide for this unit. scoutcar, ok maybe but an joke aswell some People medium-good adapted to pe Scout car spamm i saw People handling 3 scoutcar's like badass as US yes our poor weak us.. and if they Trouble, there is always in any game a brit Support so. but this is out of what i wanna talk here, example pe as us early. Stage 1. Engi vs pg - pg mostly win this, then come rifle's on Close quarter map they win on some other lose, like chess. but this doesn't matter anymore really as i see, and then Come's the fun part the double sniper's and the good ol Scout and if no Scout they used extremly defensive wich also they Keep moving. = pe all inf useless then try use schwimm:D you will be like wtf it's useless:D if you make scoutcar the uberrange 57 mm ht Comes out. what else you have? hmm mortar's yeah they once was good against sniper spamm now they just to late after delaying them. you can sit in base with your inf and usesless scoutcar's and ht's trying waste your time with a schwimm and scoutcar on a big field is just suicide as i mentioned above because where sniper's are also at's and so on. making a sniper as pe 1 sniper, wich alway's miss shit without a hauptsturm behind it useless.. also kettengrads are easier to find then wh/us scout's dingo suck aswell. maybe it get detection? faster? idk. now wh can make 2 sniper's but believe it or not wh sniper's mostly die to us sniper's even if you do the same shit as you do with us with, 2 sniper's/Scout it just won't work as wh as with us. SO i don't only want this Limitation because of this pe shit, but just because i think game's with less sniperspamm from whatever site are more fun, better inf game's! maybe less campy from early on aswell.. and also more Teamwork is then needed, since you can still make basically 2 then by working together with your teammate. So one you can make and one your teammate we can Keep the ss,ab Sniper's though they Special inf. but please remove this 2 sniper for almost every faction. and reduce it to 1 for any faction, wanna hear your opinion. i think it would be good Change, forcing more Teamwork/reducing Camping. Lehr


Edit: I wanted bring up this suggestion some week ago, but i had no time for it.
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE
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Tiger1996
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Tiger1996 » 28 Oct 2017, 19:55

I do agree... However, I think eventually PE would then have to lose snipers completely. So, both SE and Luft docs would have no snipers at all.
Only the SS squad would keep its sniper! Meaning that the only way to get sniper as PE would be the SS squad, which is very expensive but therefore available for all PE docs.

CW rifle section squads would also have to lose their "sniper shot" ability, OR 1 less sniper in RAF doc.. either this or that.
Though, i would personally favor the first option, which is keeping 2 snipers for RAF while removing the sniper shot ability from rifle section squads in return... That's clearly my opinion ;)

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 28 Oct 2017, 19:59

Tiger1996 wrote:I do agree... However, I think eventually PE would then have to lose snipers completely. So, both SE and Luft docs would have no snipers at all.
Only the SS squad would keep its sniper! Meaning that the only way to get sniper as PE would be the SS squad, which is very expensive but therefore available for all PE docs.

CW rifle section squads would also have to lose their "sniper shot" ability, OR 1 less sniper in RAF doc.. either this or that.
Though, i would personally favor the first option, which is keeping 2 snipers for RAF while removing the sniper shot ability from rifle section squads in return... That's clearly my opinion ;)


I already said above, special unit's like ss or those ab units keep them, i would agree that se and luft lose it sniper. No problem. it is i guess, brit's keep their ability. but lose one raf sniper. this will make also the british section ability somethink 'special' on them
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE
CyberdyneModel101: you're unstoppable

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Kr0noZ
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Kr0noZ » 28 Oct 2017, 20:22

I disagree. Snipers are limited already, there was a time when that wasn't the case.
Also, they're expensive and need micro, I don't see a problem here.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Tiger1996 » 28 Oct 2017, 21:10

Spoiler: show
HOW DARE YOU DISAGREE???!!!
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Just kidding ^_^


I think the problem is when each player deploys 2 snipers throughout team-fight battles.. eventually it becomes disastrous. If the opponent team does the same, then it's a super campy game with no infantry but only tanks and arty... Then comes bunkers and emplacements. Therefore I would have to agree with Lehr that spamming snipers lead to nothing but more "camping" in some way.

yser
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby yser » 28 Oct 2017, 21:27

agree 2 snipers is very Annoying and with airborn hq squad its be 3 snipers!! and i think if they remoave sniper from hq airborn sqaud well be bteer alsow take away sniper from wafen SS sqauad and im not agree with tiger to take away sniper from section squad .yser

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Warhawks97
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Oct 2017, 22:59

I am all against even more limits. Damn, why is everybody so eager to limit everything to death.

Ok, lets imagine snipers gets that limit. If you gonna face two or three US they can still say "Hey, i have luft inf here, can scramble three snipers on my side" + rifle section + 101st AB and whatever. Snipers are hardcounter to elite inf spam and thats great.

My personal strategy (against snipers but also heavy AT guns) was to use the cheapest stuff but effective one. Double krad (sometimes i spammed over 40 of these things in a game) and going aggressive paired with 20 mm vehicles and the cheapest inf you can get. Even though you take losses that can help to entirely overrun enemie lines. In case those consists of different AT guns, snipers, recons, shermans, vehicles etc you have done something wrong already. But during mid stage (when most start deploying these double sniper thing) i was used to use two bikes (yes, as WH i used bikes bc they are cheap and perfect for what they shall do) and two puma with 20 mm. It was risky but all or nothing. Heavy AT guns will fail to stop the bikes which then reveal and AT positions and recons while double 20 can pass them easily and shred them.

As PE i did it with krad.


Now to my suggestion (again):

There need to be a counter to snipers. A cheap one. If snipers are a cheap (relatively) counter to expensive elite inf, then we need cheap anti sniper tools. Right now there is nothing as cheap counter and so arty is a favoured tool to hammer sniper/AT combos.

What to do?
1. Drop the god damn MP cost of schwimm, bikes, jeeps. Note the MP cost is what matters. The cost would be arround 140 (bike) to 160 (schwimm and jeep) to approx 170 (PE schwimm) (max for any 180). PE could receive a schwimm without abilities and cheaper as reward for the schwimm with abilties.
2. In return, to prevent overspam of those, they would receive a fuel cost of 5. I do know what it means for the early game (US couldnt build jeep righ away) and tier ups could be delayed, but if you really expect a sniper spam right away, this could be a correct answer. Furthermore, in case of late game sniper spam, you could still build enough bikes. 5 fuel is regained in a minute at least (usually far less). MP is by far the more cruical ressource at that time.
3. Remove all snipers that are incorporated in infantry squads. Let the sniper duty to be done by snipers, not combat units. HQ units should provide buffs to nearby units and support abilities, not doing sniper duties (AB 101 HQ). And assault units should do assault duties, not containing snipers that snipe arround at point blank and under heavy fire when the nerves of the soldiers wouldnt allow to make a distant sniper shot. (SS squad).

Double bike (280 MP and 10 fuel) or cheaper PE schwimm (200 and 10 fuel) to kill 700 MP double sniper (maybe even more) and recons is a very good deal i would say. Jeeps, bikes etc would become what they are actually supposed to be: Fast reconassaince vehicles exploting weakness and hunting enemie scout units. And thats throughout the entire game, not just the early stage (in which they behave more like opening game "tanks").


My personal feelings about all that:
But as in the past, i guess nobody will even consider such drastical changes (of units and their role). I wrote this post bc people told me "go ahead with your suggestions". I hope i didnt waste my time here. Wouldnt be the first time in this particular matter.

If anyone wants to know: I voted no for the change. Limiting something is the easiest (and most dump way) to get rid of stuff people dont want to bother with. I would wish more creativity in dealing with such issues rather than shouting for "limit this, this and this and omg this as well". It makes me even mad to a certain extent.

kwok
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby kwok » 29 Oct 2017, 08:01

Biggest. PE. Buff. Ever.

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sgtToni95
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby sgtToni95 » 29 Oct 2017, 10:50

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:now wh can make 2 sniper's but believe it or not wh sniper's mostly die to us sniper's even if you do the same shit as you do with us with, 2 sniper's/Scout it just won't work as wh as with us.


This was the best argument imo. How could you ever disagree to this.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Redgaarden » 29 Oct 2017, 10:52

Just limited hp. And increase rifle cooldown. I dont like even cheaper jeeps or other cancer units. Counter to snipers are either 100% mech units. Or snipers of your own.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 29 Oct 2017, 12:02

kwok wrote:Biggest. PE. Buff. Ever.


And how exactly? you could do tell same about british then. If you're talking about they here to Counter Luftwaffe so i can tell you it's just one way, have you ever tried section with Leutnant? you know section/leut get more xp by killing fallis, i usually end up with Leutnant vet 2 against luft. Use his heroic ability when reach vet 1 and you can stand with section against Luftwaffe head to head even in no cover i seen by my own experience.


Ab also rek's Luftwaffe unit's you mostly outnumber them run over to them threw a incendiary grenade and the reg/gebirgs have to run otherwhise they get rekt too.

Raf lategame shred Luftwaffe too especially with this double bren rifle commando.

Kwok i though especially from you you should have known These way's and there many more.

I've alway's said allies never was weak it's the player's fault not the faction. Look at mencius he Play his british as it would be the most op faction ingame. It just ppl talk axis down while they are not so "op" maybe something's are annoying but that's all.


Also it wasn't my Intention to buff any faction here. and i don't think at all it is doing it so.


@Redgaarden sound's like some good idea too.
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 29 Oct 2017, 12:17

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:
kwok wrote:Biggest. PE. Buff. Ever.

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote: Also it wasn't my Intention to buff any faction here. and i don't think at all it is doing it so.


Just think about it for a moment then..
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 29 Oct 2017, 12:29

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:
kwok wrote:Biggest. PE. Buff. Ever.

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote: Also it wasn't my Intention to buff any faction here. and i don't think at all it is doing it so.


Just think about it for a moment then..


you guy's can not say that sniper's are only Counter to all. and i don't think that a unit buff anything.
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE
CyberdyneModel101: you're unstoppable

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 29 Oct 2017, 12:34

I dont personally think, that snipers are best counter to PE blob shit of any kind, but at the same time, some cases it has to be played that way too. (and actually i had same proposition planned to be explained, however i cant recall what stopped me back then..)


just to make it clear, i hate sniper games too (thx wurf for that)
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Warhawks97
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Warhawks97 » 29 Oct 2017, 13:25

@Red: I didnt make them cheaper. Just swapped some cost. MP for fuel. Early game spam wouldnt happen but at the same time they can be valuable counter units to recons and snipers at a cost that is not too high to risk them in exploiting enemie lines. Players would have to learn not to just spam either snipers or elite inf as both would be counterable. I am aiming at increasing the variety of units being fielded and working in conjunction.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Redgaarden » 01 Nov 2017, 09:20

@Lehr. I think they are saying it's bad because US snipers are most often the only/best thing US can get. I dont understand the comment either.

@Warjawks. Fuel is not something you need loads of in this game. Shermans cost 45 fuel. Compared to vcoh where shermans cost 90 fuels i would almost say you need twice as little fuel. And it wasent that uncommon in vcoh you had more fuel than mp/muni. Maybe if you set the price to 10 fuel i could support it.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

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Warhawks97
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Nov 2017, 14:33

Redgaarden wrote:@Lehr. I think they are saying it's bad because US snipers are most often the only/best thing US can get. I dont understand the comment either.

@Warjawks. Fuel is not something you need loads of in this game. Shermans cost 45 fuel. Compared to vcoh where shermans cost 90 fuels i would almost say you need twice as little fuel. And it wasent that uncommon in vcoh you had more fuel than mp/muni. Maybe if you set the price to 10 fuel i could support it.


ok, why not. The minimum requirment is simpy that it cost fuel, that was my main point. If 5 (or 10 if considered necessary to compensate the lower MP cost). Keep in mind that i tested stuff like that along with higher fuel cost for tanks. There 5 fuel was enough. Changing one thing changes everything :)

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ExE
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby ExE » 02 Nov 2017, 02:02

For me, all discussions have the same "root" issue; but first, my view on this topic.

1st; I agree with Warhawks in the matter of removing the sniper from AB 101 HQ Squad and SS Heavy Squad; Sniper duty made solely by one man.

^With this you can give PE the 2nd Sniper, just as the other factions (making the game more "balance"); but you can say, aswell, this will be a more campy-style game... BUT;

And here is where I think the "root" issue is; Make the "core" units composition equal across all factions;

-If the counter unit to snipers and scout should be Moto/Schwimm/Jeep, then, this units have to be able to fulfil their role.

-Here, as PE, you say it can't be done with the Schwimm; and, unlike the Jeep, with the last one you can get a little loose to get the job done; and after it, just retreat it for repairs.

SO; if you give the Schwimm the toughness of the Jeep, you can get the job done...

But now we say; PE has a "Jeep" with free abilities depending of doctrine chosen.

And here you have these options;

-All early recon have an "equal" toughness to deal with snipers; so, PE Schwimm lose its abilities.

OR; (and here my idea for a better gameplay variation);

-All early recon have an ability depending of doctrine chosen; Or maybe an upgrade (paying 50MP) like CW has; Or CP's unlock;

I don't know, something like;

-WM Schwimm having alike abilities of PE Schwimm;

-WM Moto:

>DEF = Plant mines.
>BLK = Capture Points.
>TER = Nebel VT.

Same with the Jeep and the respective USA doctrines.

And, to avoid the spam, I ,again, agree with Warhawks;

->Reduce MP and a little fuel price.

^This way, I think, games will be more dynamic; with more units variation and unique abilities.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-And now going back to the "root" problem of "core" units composition;

-Reading all these post about balance and "OP" units or "useless" units; I came to the conclusion of;

->Give every faction the basics tools to deal with any threats; same numbers, HP, Damage, Range, Penetration and so on...

I'll point out some examples;

-In terms of Infantry; WM Grens are a core units across all doctrines and they get the job done of pushing or defending a point; unlike the USA counterpart;

-Let's remember the change of PE Assault Grens; they were like Volks in terms of K98's stats; and now they are WM Grens' stats;

-What about USA Rangers? They're like Rifles 2.0 and, unless you choose INF doc, for most players they are not really worth it the price for such unit.

-And Axis Grens can do the job, no matter what doctrine is chosen; heck, you choose your Doctrine and they get even more effective.

-WM Grens; a good choice regardless of doctrine.
-Pz E Grens; SE with the usage of Flames; Veteran Sargeants; G43's & MP-44's; TH doctrine with double AT grenades...

-With Rangers it's more linear; to be cost effective->INF DOC->6CP->and...now you get to choose the Infiltration Rangers Squad from the Call-in Truck to make more tactical usage from this doc in terms of Infantry combat.

-And in terms of tank combat; M4 Shermans without Armor doctrine... people don't even mind deploying them.

- Same with 76's; as USA you fear a head-on fight with Pz IV's...

-In terms of AT; for Axis the 50mm is a must-have 'cuz it can penetrate Shermans even without AP rounds; USA 57... people tend to skip it and deploy the 76mm right away to face Axis tanks...

-And so on...

-> Army composition should be like a complete puzzle; to deal with every threat to some extent; And doctrines a plus to the puzzle; NOT doctrines filling the gaps in the basic puzzle...

Feel free to disagree with these points I made;

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-And another thing I see frecuently it's the map size problem;

-People get mad for Artillery range;
-Did you just get lock-down with a single MG and AT gun/Mortar?
-Not having enough space to move/maneuvuer?

...and so on...

-This new map "Blija";

Check this post to see it; "good map for 3v3" by Shanks;

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2355

-See how much space do you have? Calculate how much resources do you need to make an impassable defence from end to end in this map...

->You have plenty of room; More paths to strike and not a "corridor" to win with "brute force".

^Something like this need to be implement on new maps:

Also;

->Mofeta's work; Getting rid off bridges and water for more room; it's a good implementation for new maps.

->And something Kwok points out about maps:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1672&start=25#p22590

->The +1 method it's good for these kind of gameplays where you can move/maneuver more freely... alongside with High Res for more opening variation... but let's focus on maps.

BUT people don't like that; Reason-> "Why do you close 1 slot on each side; this a XvX map, need more people to play this..." among others...

^A method to "lure" them to play like this is making the map with 2 fewer player slot by default; It's a lot of work going each map to fit this way but it's a suggestion to make the balance a little easier... (Although some might still say "Let's play the 3v3 version instead of the new 2v2 version"...)


>Finally; to recap, this is, I think, the "root" for all this balance issue;

->Make all factions having equal "core" units composition to deal with the enemy; Equal in numbers, HP, Damage, Range and so on...

->Scale of maps; More room and paths to break through enemy lines.

->I tried to condense the frecuent points in this post :D

->A long post indeed... :lol:

Again; Just my view and feel free to debate it. ;)
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Warhawks97
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Nov 2017, 12:12

Very good post ExE.

Agree to the very most part. Just i dont think making mirrors...

Make all factions having equal "core" units composition to deal with the enemy; Equal in numbers, HP, Damage, Range and so on...


...is the best solution for sake of diversity. I mean we play factions bc they differ. But i agree that there should be core abilties and units to deal with various situations. And when grens and assault grens are better than basic units, why are rangers not treated the same.
But what i am saying is that there should be elements in all docs to solve, lets say "problem x". While axis might deal with this issue by Using grenadiers (+ other stuff depending on doctrine) US would use not rangers as one to one mirror to grens but instead maybe a mechanized unit or so.


What i would also suggest, regarding HP and survivability, is to reduce the HP gaps between inf units (and as few as possible infantry target tables) Thats bc it would make it easier to adjust weapons effectivity. Remember HE rounds: OP or not? depends on what they shoot at. One inf type dies instant, the other is so healthy that it doesnt get a scratch even.



but so far i can agree in every aspect.

GrigoriRasputin(SVT)
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby GrigoriRasputin(SVT) » 02 Nov 2017, 16:04

One guy gets beaten by a better player in PVP and comes and creates threads about a specific unit being OP..

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 05 Nov 2017, 02:09

GrigoriRasputin(SVT) wrote:One guy gets beaten by a better player in PVP and comes and creates threads about a specific unit being OP..

Like i beat you everyday with ease and won 3v2 vs you mister rokossovski?
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE
CyberdyneModel101: you're unstoppable

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Henny
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Re: Limit every sniper to 1.

Postby Henny » 06 Nov 2017, 06:44

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:
GrigoriRasputin(SVT) wrote:One guy gets beaten by a better player in PVP and comes and creates threads about a specific unit being OP..

Like i beat you everyday with ease and won 3v2 vs you mister rokossovski?



Thats not rokossovski thats dolphin my best friend


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