Blitzkrieg Mod Forum

sgtToni95 wrote:your answer on heat was "Heat will behave as heat are supposed to behave" (really MY bad if i didn't understand this) which means... nothing regarding my questions.

Ok mate, so I will once again try to illustrate what I mean shortly or in a more simple way.. just so we could hopefully get over this loop.

- M10 = has hit and run tactics ability, has flank speed, can ambush, has HEAT shells = pure AT role.

And I really like how Hawks managed to describe the ridiculous hit and run tactics ability btw :P Anyway... let's continue:

- M36 (not B1) = NO hit and run tactics ability, has flank speed but after engine upgrade, can ambush too but has no HEAT shells = still pure AT role.

- Achilles = has hit and run tactics ability, has flank speed, can ambush, has HE rounds = AT role and anti-infantry role too + available for all CW docs.

Now, what I was thinking.. is to keep the Achilles as pure AT role only. Regardless how HEAT shells would behave, as I already consider the Achilles very dangerous against all Axis tanks! But if you like to hear some specifications on the HEAT rounds, then they should have short range just like any other HEAT shells.. great penetration chances but not very cheap! in short; it should be very similar to the M10 Wolverine's HEAT.
I hope I've finally answered what you want...

Now, what I was thinking.. is to keep the Achilles as pure AT role only. Regardless how HEAT shells would behave, as I already consider the Achilles very dangerous against all Axis tanks! But if you like to hear some specifications on the HEAT rounds, then they should have short range just like any other HEAT shells.. great penetration chances but not very cheap! in short; it should be very similar to the M10 Wolverine's HEAT.
I hope I've finally answered what you want...

Well, Achillies doesn't suffer from a faulty cannon. I dont think you will actually get anything froom the Heat shell if it's like the one m10 has. Dmg is prob higher on standard shots, so is pen. Hell, even on m10 you should prefer HVAP rounds. I vote against giving Achillies a stupid ability that will most likely do more harm than good. And it doesn't help that you alrady get some dumb ap rounds for achillies. And compared to M10 if you give Achillies HEAT shells it will stack with the other AP shells.
I would prefer it if you gave them something like the steilhandgranate 42. (From the pak38 50mm)

I think the stuka, (only 50 of ammunition for four rockets), is more than enough for emplacement, besides, it seems that you forget the mortar

Note:what the fuck i did...and sorry for the English of the Google translator, but I think you will understand

I consider mortars situational/outdated most of the time and not very reliable.
And it depends on the emplacements.

@Red. 6-7 sec for US 76 gun is stupid. It wasnt superior in terms of penetration in rl and even worse in BK. However, in rl the gun was a very quick shooting gun as reload was much easier and esspecially compared to 17. In game axis 75 from Tank IV has max 5,5 sec reload vs 6 sec of firefly and 7 for 76 gun. In terms of reload speed it should be much more 76<Firefly/Panther. The 76 should have the fastest reload speed ammong all guns of similiar calibre while 75 pdr would be the worst, esspecially those of the firefly. Reloading this was horror as the gun breach literally reached till the end of the turret. The 76 gun would have some compensation for its bad penetration power.

I was joking about the reload speed nerf. Just really used to having to pay for every advantage. Or pay a little extra so they can perform similar to the axis counterpart. I mean, in my eyes I dont really see the difference between 76mm and 75mm sherman most of the time.

Achilles can already penetrate reliably Panthers and tigers with APCR. Higher penetration would mean penetrating KT and JT frontally since those are the only thicker targets remaining. This is what i'm talking about... removing the capabilities of killing cheaper stuff to give it capability to kill more expansive stuff.

I don't really like this idea at all, and i honestly don't see all theese problems with achilles having 1 HE shot ability.

Marders can penetrate jumbo and have timed HE shots, and they're even cheaper and available to all PE docs and Def iirc. Isn't there any problem with that?

sgtToni95 wrote:I don't really like this idea at all, and i honestly don't see all theese problems with achilles having 1 HE shot ability.

There is no problems, today its the Achilles HE, tomorrow it will the 17pdr HE...

More seriously, like Mark said if we need to tweak HE in general because they perform « too well » we can do that, removing completely HE on some units isn’t needed at all, and you are pretty sure a lot of people will have new problems in game because of that removal.
HE is very sensitive, thats why some units have HE even if its not historicaly realistic.
Removing HE to some units will change more things related to the gameplay and create « new » problems regarding the survability of those units, im strongly against that, first because HE in general are working perfectly in Bk, and second HE in Bk aren't game balance breakers.


Yes some units can be a pain in the ass, yes sometimes one HE shell can wipe out an entire squad, yes sometimes AA guns missed their targets and don't shot planes, yes sometimes you got one shot or it bounced, and so? deal with it, if its not too OP or game breaking deal with it, nothing will be perfectly set the way we would like depending how we play the game.

With the time if something is really too wrong in bk we are fixing it anyway.

Most important for us is: Is it game breaking? yes/no, do we have counter parts to that? yes/no, Is it easy to put in order in game? yes/no. etc...etc...

More seriously, like Mark said if we need to tweak HE in general because they perform « too well » we can do that, removing completely HE on some units isn’t needed at all, and you are pretty sure a lot of people will have new problems in game because of that removal.

Thank you. How do you feel about my suggestion? of limiting the AOE dmg so that it only kills the units in the centre of the explosion, and make it so that all the units in the outer circle survive. Then the HE explosive would be less punishing for troops in the open. And more punishing for troops in cover since the explosion will still remove all the cover. I do believe that the HE would still be cost efficent in killing infantry and still withhold it's utillity in removing infantry in cover. Though it will lack a little bit in entirely forcing off anti tank squads. But that is what I'm aiming for since I dont think tanks should counter anti tank troops as much as they do.

P.s While talking about anti tank troops. Is it intentional that they have to cost 45 manpower to reinforce? It's quite a big blow losing even one of these troops since they cost 50% more than even most elite infantry.

Actually regarding the HE damage the opposite is the logic way, you'll normally get more shrapnels from the HE shells in the open at medium/long range, and less at cover, so if you are at cover the logic says you will get less shells debrits, and less damages.
At short range, the explosive + shrapnels should heavely damage all infantry units the same way.

i got through all the stuff and so:

HEAT on US M10 is as i can see better in terms of pen as the basic apcr/hvap. Even against panthers it has guranteed pen?

However, why should have achilles that stuff? What it can kill it does with what it has already, what it cant kill wont be killable with HEAT. Besides it never had HEAT rounds.

Coming also back on that "hit and run" ability aka star wars traktor beam paired with turbolaser. There are a few things i could imagine that could replace it:

1. HE shot. Why not having US M10 with HVAP, HEAT and HE? Allied TD in ww2 fired a lot of HE rounds, even more than AP rounds from 44 onwards. It would also give Allied TD some sort of utility and a special "allied gameplay" feeling. While axis TD killing at range with deadly ambush, powerfull guns and armor the allied would have the mobility paired with versatility. I am also disliking the removal of HE from M36 but well.

2. M10 could get a phospheuros shot like chaffe and hellcat has it. It was a widely used shot among allied tanks and it did had effects on axis tankers as those believed their tank is on fire (a good reason to leave the tank) while also taking their sight.

3. Arty stike for the M10 in armor doc for tank commanders.

Regarding some HE cost efficiency ratio: Since they are working now the cost of some of them could be adjusted. I am looking towards the Jagdtiger.
Also HE shots on TD (achilles but also looking towards firefly which basically is a dedicated TD unit) could get a slightly longer cooldown to underline their primary role as anti tank unit.

Warhawks97 wrote:2. M10 could get a phospheuros shot like chaffe and hellcat has it. It was a widely used shot among allied tanks and it did had effects on axis tankers as those believed their tank is on fire (a good reason to leave the tank) while also taking their sight.

Your suggestion number 1 isn't really great to be honest, because.. more HE rounds for TDs isn't really a good idea... However, I totally agree about replacing the "hit and run tactics" ability for both Wolverine and Achilles with the "phosphorous shot" ability in return similar to Hellcat & Staghound.

Warhawks97 wrote:Regarding some HE cost efficiency ratio: Since they are working now the cost of some of them could be adjusted. I am looking towards the Jagdtiger.
Also HE shots on TD (achilles but also looking towards firefly which basically is a dedicated TD unit) could get a slightly longer cooldown to underline their primary role as anti tank unit.

And well, I am also now convinced that HE rounds can stay for Achilles as long as the cool-down would be tweaked specifically for TDs in general.

I currently only need 1 HE shell to get the squad dead or forced to retreat. I honestly dont see how increasing the cooldown is going to fix anything. But go ahead, surprise me.

And regarding the white phosphuros round replacing HIT & Run I dont really see the point. They are both the same, just HIT & RUN deals dmg, and has longer range. The effect are quite similar. My first impression of phosphrous rounds was that they did not work. And I still think it's a waste of munitions, time, clicks, and UI slots.

Stop trying to shove abilities that dont work onto the tank destoryers please. So if you want to remove HIT & RUN just do so, I dont think we need more misleading stuff into the mod.

Actually regarding the HE damage the opposite is the logic way, you'll normally get more shrapnels from the HE shells in the open at medium/long range, and less at cover, so if you are at cover the logic says you will get less shells debrits, and less damages.
At short range, the explosive + shrapnels should heavely damage all infantry units the same way.

Most HE didn't have any shrapnel filler and the only sharpnel that came, was natrually made sharpnel from the metal of the shell which were usually in huge chunks and didn't spread very efficently. So actually hitting the cover would make the entire wall into dangerous sharpnel and trauma instruments to everyone.
And I'm saying as how HE works now is more like a no brainer ability that you activate all the time when you get in range, or when the enemy runs into range. My point is trying to limit the ability and give it its' own purpose. And that the 17pounder explosvie are way too big, they are almost like 88mm explosives.

And about the white phsophrpous rounds. The only thing I actually hate about the ability is that it says it "Stuns" the target when it clearly dosen't. So if you were to change the tooltip to something like "Blinds the Driver" then people will know that the target will still kill you and that you shouldn't use the ability to kill other tanks. So yeah, fix the misleading tooltip.

Is it just possible to make ALL the HE a bit less effective? (pardon if that just too of an amateur question though)

Not taking it off the TD's, not leaving ATguns completely out of the possibility to defend against infantry, but just making it less like it is right "now"? Im talking about all the HE shells in the game. Just basically decreasing its power.


88 oneshotters. Instakiller Ostwinds. That truck Toni mentioned about.., when HE was only (mostly) for Axis side, it was never a part of such a big discussion. But "now" it is.

And yea, i wish phosphorus rounds were reworked somehow.
Like, for how long does it Stun now?1-3 seconds? Is there maybe a way to make it also critical chance dependable? So if ur lucky, u'll get it stunned for longer period? or Crew killed?

Also, wondering if those 57/76mm atguns ever used such shell's.
Could be also cool to see those in use, considering recent aiming time model.


Cheers

it may not be easy to program, and I think they sometimes put too much pressure on developers with nonsense..i think they get too excited because they lose too much

@Red:

Well, maybe it should really stun it. From stories i heard the crews lost their sight and didnt actually know they they were really burning (means escape the tank instantly) or if its just outside. Some crews abandoned them (there was an interview with a Panther crew member of 44 who left the tank). The tank crew cant do anything for like 4 seconds as they cant see anything nor knowing whats going on.

And yes, the US used these rounds extensively, including also the 76 mm AT gun crews.

As far as i know there had been phosphoreus rounds in pretty much every sherman. At least later on. Cant say how many exactly.

@idlike: HE is a difficult topic. Early on they kill very well, maybe sometimes too well. Later on with cover and all those rambos i often got frustrated to see nice hits from 75 mm HE shots in a squad of fallis or most likely stromtroopers and at best one dude is dead. Its difficult bc of the huge ammount of healt differences inf has (ranging from 45 of pios to 95 of storms) and several boosts (like reduced taken damage+ health boosts).

If inf in general wouldnt differ this much (like saying ranging from 50 to max 70 or whatever) it would be way easier to find the "correct damage" of HE. There are simply billions of factors (area effected, damage in the different circles of area, cover, infantry formation, target types like heroic from gebirgs which makes them standing HE stuff better and whatever else i forgot).

cry a lot is not good

Warhawks97 wrote: Its difficult bc of the huge ammount of healt differences

Well, intuitive i felt that's the core thing of this issue, and was expecting someone to come up with this answer..and that is what for i said there about "when it was only about axis" part. Considering that most of the time rifles are just food for HE shots.

And i dont say HE m4 sherman/or camoed Achilles is nothing, but u never get that complete frustration feel, that u get when u confront ostwind/88flak, or get Stupa shell for the first time.


It's just "now" we are talking about it.

I just agree about this stupid he at shit... i've recently played a 3v3 where toni was in where allies went total camp with arty and Achilles on la fiere.. they just spammed freaking Achilles with he and nothing came trough. Now you say uhh, why does a single Achilles kill your inf well, there alway's only 3-2 men left sometimes even got 1 hit killed! especially at Teams, so now. at team's get insta shot down, and i guess bringing tanks to an ambushed Achilles in hope to kill it is worst idea you can have:DDD. And now i already see the question, it's just an achilels with an one shot he and you say there alway's 2-3 man enough to kill that Achilles WRONG!! there alway's inf behind it. mg or anything else so how can i do anything with this 3-2 man then run away and repeat this whole crap? it was pretty sad to see that a line of freaking Achilles could hold inf and also tanks.. and then the next reason dev's will say 'why you Play lafiere'. Now i tell you this map is played by everyone ! also kwok:)

La Fiere is a good map imo, why should anyone wonder why you play that map? lol
And we camped in middle, which we took from you after wurf made barracks in every possible building (which i'd call camping too) but your side was constantly falling to bob's attacks, so no need to come here and complain for a game bringing out random names.

Regarding achilles, did you ever try not to blob your infantry but sending 2 at (paras count too) squads from different directions? HE shot have cooldown and their blast is smoller than ST's one, so that could not oneshot both of your squads... It's quite a hard solution and requires lot of thinking but you might try that

sgtToni95 wrote:La Fiere is a good map imo, why should anyone wonder why you play that map? lol
And we camped in middle, which we took from you after wurf made barracks in every possible building (which i'd call camping too) but your side was constantly falling to bob's attacks, so no need to come here and complain for a game bringing out random names.

Regarding achilles, did you ever try not to blob your infantry but sending 2 at (paras count too) squads from different directions? HE shot have cooldown and their blast is smoller than ST's one, so that could not oneshot both of your squads... It's quite a hard solution and requires lot of thinking but you might try that

lol

sgtToni95 wrote:La Fiere is a good map imo, why should anyone wonder why you play that map? lol
And we camped in middle, which we took from you after wurf made barracks in every possible building (which i'd call camping too) but your side was constantly falling to bob's attacks, so no need to come here and complain for a game bringing out random names.

Regarding achilles, did you ever try not to blob your infantry but sending 2 at (paras count too) squads from different directions? HE shot have cooldown and their blast is smoller than ST's one, so that could not oneshot both of your squads... It's quite a hard solution and requires lot of thinking but you might try that

Ofc, german didn't went middle but to wurf's site i had 2v1 i anyways think lafiere is a great allie map you just Need ra.. and bit camp.. yeah in middle, because we all were middle, what would be if we attacked on left or right site? same shit would happen as i wrote above just on a another Location. it's just bullshit. if axis nd such shit, allie fangirl's would come and cry much more worse. Who the hell talk about the game anyway's maybe you should re-read:D i just told about the map because dev's will come up and be like 'Play bigger maps' also? blob? lol wtf when i ever did blob? do you even know what a blob is? go Play vanilla there are blobs. i assign any of my squad's to "1" "2" "3" if i blob i just would put them all in "1":). And after seeing, or playing my self lafiere as allies i know how kinda easy it is, i promsied me that day to never Play this map ever again, i think you know it yourself that Position 1.2.3 has Advantages in this map, i remember i wanted to put axis once 1.2.3 and all of you left out of sudden:) Holy shit Boy, i never say anything again against your british not to hurt your feeling's this got salty fast

Toni, please. I won't handle more of this : D

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote: and then the next reason dev's will say 'why you Play lafiere'. Now i tell you this map is played by everyone ! also kwok:)

why are you bringing me into this? why are you taking me completely out of context again?

i. hate. la. fiere. 3v3.
it's not my fault that the only way i can get a goddamn game is to just suck up the bullshit the community puts out on what they say is the "proper way to play" even though every dev and designer plus a few strong players of the mod says otherwise. you know what i do whenever i play la fiere 3v3? i bitch and camp to prove a point and i've got a pretty solid win ratio doing so. bitching and camping that is... else i turn down like 80% of the games i get asked to join cuz it's ANOTHER 3v3 la fiere or cherbourg arty camp fest. Ugh... high valley is a new one... but people dont like to 2v2 anymore cuz surprise surprise the meta is turning more into a camp fest.

don't take me out of context again. again... why do you and tiger always do this?

i dare any arty player to play on a big map and feel the difference in play. they'll find whatever "skill" they have becomes MUCH harder to do... because it hardly takes any skill on a small map.

La Fiere is a good map imo, why should anyone wonder why you play that map? lol
And we camped in middle, which we took from you after wurf made barracks in every possible building (which i'd call camping too) but your side was constantly falling to bob's attacks, so no need to come here and complain for a game bringing out random names.

Regarding achilles, did you ever try not to blob your infantry but sending 2 at (paras count too) squads from different directions? HE shot have cooldown and their blast is smoller than ST's one, so that could not oneshot both of your squads... It's quite a hard solution and requires lot of thinking but you might try that

Wait. You do know achillies is cheaper than infantry? And even more infantry wont solve the problem, since the infantry will have a hard time killing the tank and the tank will just scuttle away. And you can just get more achillies combined with any other unit to finish off enemy infantry.
I'm just saying your tactic defeats its own purpose and that its extremly innefficent.

why are you bringing me into this? why are you taking me completely out of context again?

Dont whine, he is just using you as a example.

i dare any arty player to play on a big map and feel the difference in play. they'll find whatever "skill" they have becomes MUCH harder to do... because it hardly takes any skill on a small map.

I thougth small maps were bad because emplacements, chokepoints, and limited resources which stall the game. I find arty to be much better on big maps.

Redgaarden wrote:

why are you bringing me into this? why are you taking me completely out of context again?

Dont whine, he is just using you as a example.

and misusing me as an example as if i agreed la fiere was a fine 3v3 map. i don't think it is. and when you're constantly being used in an argument/example in ways that you don't agree with then it gets annoying.

Redgaarden wrote:I thougth small maps were bad because emplacements, chokepoints, and limited resources which stall the game. I find arty to be much better on big maps.

much better as in more effective? i find arty too easy on small maps because the chokepoints and limited space make it easy to just blind arty with great efficacy. meanwhile on bigger maps, it's easier to avoid arty by either dodging, playing outside its range, or spacing out <-- all difficult options on a small map.

One thing i can think off is that now people now have to combine armor and inf. Apparently of what i can read, allis do it:

there alway's inf behind it. mg or anything else so how can i do anything with this 3-2 man then run away and repeat this whole crap? it was pretty sad to see that a line of freaking Achilles could hold inf and also tanks.. and then the next reason dev's will say 'why you Play lafiere'. Now i tell you this map is played by everyone ! also kwok:)

I just agree about this stupid he at shit... i've recently played a 3v3 where toni was in where allies went total camp with arty and Achilles on la fiere.. they just spammed freaking Achilles with he and nothing came trough.

Damn.. that sound so.... wait... i know this.... this is what happend over years in every damn game. Solution: Priest!

Counter question: Ever tried Hetzer+ 20 mm vehicle and Pgrens? Or Hetzer plus Wirbelwind? There are countless combos with which you could counter entire armies "just by spamming" a unit. Ask Kwok.... def doc, one Jagdpanzer IV and lots of Volks with def doc buff.... Two unit types and well... armies couldnt really pass. You could do the same with 88 and little support nearby for example.

I mean honestly. for how many centuries was "single unit spam" the meta of axis. Grens/Panther, Pgrens and krad with 88?

So technically you say they spam one unit but then you say "the one unit army is not alone". As for this particular camp situations. It seems that allis have just learned from the axis and they got the tools for it. I stopped playing Bk for the exact reason you describe here, just there it was "normal" bc axis did it.



Regarding this matter in general. I wouldnt reccommend to "fall back" into "HE work sometimes" times, considering their cost to equip and use (upgrade and first use is at least 50 ammo, certain guns like even 65). With the new maps came maps that are not so overfilled with res so having HE shots as gambles again wouldnt be that great.

1. So in first place i would increase the cooldown of TD´s with HE rounds as mentioned, esspecially 17 pdr tanks which mainly serve the purpose to kill tanks.

2. A real rethinking of the armor/infantry relation in the game. That tanks killing inf that is trying to "overrun" tanks is a damn good thing. Also that pure inf assaults in the open are repelled by tanks is also fine. Just its not fine that tanks are often much cheaper as the infantry. Sure there is the fuel cost thing but still, those are often not higher than those of vehicles. We have many examples here.... Stugs, Tank IV´s in (BK doc in particular), Shermans (armor doc in particular), CW sherman that cost less than a inf squad etc.

So my point is to reshape the landsacpe of BK Infantry/tank cost and performence relations, but also those of arty. The main goal should be that the pure production of an inf squad is the cheapest, esspecially basic inf. The max cost of production 400 (absolute max approx 425), the reinforce cost arent the issue and should stay high for elites in particular. Vehicles costing approx that or a bit more of an regualr inf squad, depending what vehicle with current fuel cost. In line with that can be light arty (75 mm). Medium armor or main armor should definately not cost less as an elite inf squad in terms of production and a bit more fuel (I find the basic cost of the Tank IV H are the only of all medium tanks that is fairly placed and reflecting the performence correctly to be honest).
Medium arty or everything above 90 mm is in my opinion also quite cheap to get, esspecially when again compared to the cost of several infantry units.

kwok wrote:don't take me out of context again. again... why do you and tiger always do this?

Aaaaand here we go.. my name - out of nowhere - was suddenly planted into the flood, hoping it would drown... Again.

I think it's Lehr who you are arguing with right now, so please don't simply involve my name into the trouble like that next time!

Anyway, I will simply get over it.

As for playing on bigger maps... There is something I always wanted to say btw; Bk Mod at the moment does not exactly seem to be designed for big maps, neither for small maps.. but rather for medium sized maps. You see, this mod definitely has extended shooting ranges compared to vCoH.
However, when you compare Bk Mod to other mods such as Wikinger for example, then I guess you would quickly realize that Bk Mod does not really feature extended ranges. This actually makes it a little bit hard to decide sometimes whether if big maps are better for Bk Mod or not!

So in my humble opinion, if the Bk devs REALLY want to ENFORCE the players to play on bigger maps.. then I think they would have to extended the ranges even further.. almost being as much as Wikinger. Tanks in Wikinger usually have a default range of 75, if not 80, while in Bk Mod it's just 60 tho.