nerf 88 arty

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Oneiros
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nerf 88 arty

Postby Oneiros » 14 Sep 2017, 01:00

50 ammo, almost no cooldown & it defends itself vs mortars tanks and infantry over a ridiculous range. just spam 88's and anti inf flaks and the enemy is FORCED to use arty against it.

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Warhawks97
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Sep 2017, 01:40

Whats new about it?

Well, first welcome to BK from my side. Guess you played against def doc right? Yeah, you should have an RA player i would say.

Also using smoke and rushing the gun with inf might help as well now in this patch version.

kwok
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby kwok » 14 Sep 2017, 01:47

Fighting 88s has only 2 counters: arty or resource management with aggression. The first way is easiest as 88s stand still. The second way takes timing and understanding of unit build order.

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Redgaarden
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Redgaarden » 14 Sep 2017, 02:17

Also using smoke and rushing the gun with inf might help as well now in this patch version.


Smoke works now? I wouldn't advice to rely on smoke since most units will still just kill you in it. With few exceptions like bolt action and pistols, everything else will pretty much still kill your stuff, albeit a little slower than usual, but your stuff is still going to die.

Fighting 88s has only 2 counters: arty or resource management with aggression. The first way is easiest as 88s stand still. The second way takes timing and understanding of unit build order.


I have no idea what he is saying. But bombing it from a safe distance is my adivice. Not having arty or any other means to bomb it to hell from a safe distance, will not only kill all your units, it will also hurt you some way in real life.

P.s Arty is the answer to everything. Enemy uses arty? kill it with arty. Inf charging you? bomb it. Your tanks can pen enemy tanks? bomb it. Enemy planting mines? bomb the engineers together with the mines.

Quick tips to the mod. Dont build big things that can be bombed, dont build infantry since it gets wiped instantly by thing that isn't supposed to counter it, and things supposed to kill infantry, does so way too fast. Light vehicles die to stray fire, medium tanks become obsolete. Mortars are way too dangerous, seriously, dont underestimate them. (With exception with 60mm mortar) snipers are durable, so dont expect to kill it with rifle fire. Planes will fuck your shit up, deal with it. Arty is king. US "Elite" infantry is comparable to axis basic infantry, so dont whine if they die and you lose the game because of it. US tanks kinda has same deal as US infantry, so dont whine because you lost all your tanks to a single axis tank, it's common. HMG42 doesn't suppress, it kills. (That means smoke doesn't work) other HMG are fine early game but terminators will kill them in a head to head fight. I think that are the basics, have fun.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

kwok
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby kwok » 14 Sep 2017, 05:04

Lol what red says is true on small maps. But on big maps it's different. He even plays different on big maps.

What I mean to say about killing 88s is ASSUMING you played on a big map: The counter to 88s instead of bombing it is realizing that they spent at least 4 cp on it and at least 400-550 mp plus whatever build time. Depending on the type of 88 (emplaced or non) you CAN counter it with more than arty and I have plenty of replays doing just that. Your trade would be that one 88 is equivalent to roughly two or three allied units plus any other CP support you can provide. Give me any doctrine and I can tell you a way to kill 88 or at least make the 88 useless using the same amount of resource.

but actually, if I were honest there is ONE thing about the 88 that I believe makes it OP. I only recently realized its vision plus range is what makes it so powerful. If the vision is nerfed, it would greatly increase the chance of successfully assaulting it. The 88 is near independent of vision from other units unlike AT guns which have near same capability but can still be assaulted by tanks.

Oneiros
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Oneiros » 14 Sep 2017, 08:36

Wtf guys. wtf.

I Played usa with tank doctrin on beaux, and the wehrmacht player just placed around 6 flaks in his base and it would still cover almost half of the map against tanks and snipers, and if i had a calliope he would just use victor-aim with his one of his scouts. anyways he used them to destroy my base.
and well, it has ridiculous range, shooting like 30 sec with a cooldown of ~25sec (?) for 35 or 50 ammo, while i have to pay 60/90 for one calliope volley that has~500seconds cooldown. 500 SECONDS! And I can spawn A SINGLE ONE. Wanna rush with crocs? OH SORRY U CAN ONLY BUILD 2, EVEN IF THERE IS NO UNIT LIMIT and the WEHRMACHT PLAYER CAN SPAWN INFINITE AA Guns. One Single Grenade hit from 88 arty destroyed a Sherman Jumbo Tank in one hit. ONE HIT. if u try to use mortars he will just use one of the 88's to shut it almost instanly down - BECAUSE IT HAS NO COOLDOWN.

try to rush with inf - no chance against the anti infantry guns. Thats btw the next suggestion. Why its not possible to snipe people out of it?
and why the heck germans can even built them? playing brits is useless now because german 88's arty have the same fucking range as a normal brit arty.
why should i even play allies? they are so fucking weak.

Oneiros
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Oneiros » 14 Sep 2017, 08:42

kwok wrote:
they spent at least 4 cp on it and at least 400-550 mp plus whatever build time.





they cost 375mp and ~35 fuel?

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MarKr
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby MarKr » 14 Sep 2017, 10:22

Hi,

there are several problems with what you described here:
Image
BK mod is made for team games of at least 2v2 or 3v3 on BIG maps. We keep telling this to people for a reason. On small/medium maps you can easily reach over entire or huge part of a map with a single arty unit, thus arty becomes very powerful and hard to counter. You just proved it yourself in this sentence:
Oneiros wrote:the wehrmacht player just placed around 6 flaks in his base and it would still cover almost half of the map against tanks and snipers

On big/huge maps one arty unit covers way smaller part of the map so arty needs proper placement and not just "I can build it anywhere and it will reach everywhere". Similar goes for camping with emplacements - on smaller maps you can build only few of them and cover passage over entire map but on bigger maps this takes more time and resources and building and emplacement wall over the entire map is harder, especially if opponent keeps harrassing you and doesn't give you enough time to build those. Not to mention that shooting down planes is very hard on smaller maps while the effectivity of AA on bigger maps goes up with proper placement.

Playing in teams is required because some doctrines are very good at countering other doctrines (e.g. Def/TH doc vs Armor). Armor doc can win against them but it requires more effort than playing against some other doctrines. When you play in team and choose correct doctrine combination, your team mate can take care of things which cause you trouble.

As for 88s - you have mortars and mortars have smoke barrage (smoke barrage has way longer range than normal HE rounds), shoot that barrage on the 88. As long as the 88 is in smoke, it has accuracy lowered by 75%. 88s have very high accuracy at all ranges (about 90% at max range), when in smoke it drops to around 22% if you then attack with infantry, then they can get close and throw grenades at it. Even if 88 has HE loaded it will have trouble hitting your approaching infantry.
I am NOT saying that smoking the emplacement makes the approach to it absolutely safe! It can still hit you, but your units will not be doing "suicide run".

Oneiros wrote:playing brits is useless now because german 88's arty have the same fucking range as a normal brit arty
WM flak36 88mm barrage range: 200
25pounder barrage range 225 (275 with Supercharge upgrade) :?
Image

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Warhawks97
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Sep 2017, 14:42

Redgaarden wrote:
Quick tips to the mod. Dont build big things that can be bombed, dont build infantry since it gets wiped instantly by thing that isn't supposed to counter it, and things supposed to kill infantry, does so way too fast. Light vehicles die to stray fire, medium tanks become obsolete. Mortars are way too dangerous, seriously, dont underestimate them. (With exception with 60mm mortar) snipers are durable, so dont expect to kill it with rifle fire. Planes will fuck your shit up, deal with it. Arty is king. US "Elite" infantry is comparable to axis basic infantry, so dont whine if they die and you lose the game because of it. US tanks kinda has same deal as US infantry, so dont whine because you lost all your tanks to a single axis tank, it's common. HMG42 doesn't suppress, it kills. (That means smoke doesn't work) other HMG are fine early game but terminators will kill them in a head to head fight. I think that are the basics, have fun.


Thats pretty much it

I was bwt refering to the case 88 is absolutely alone. Surrounding units would kill your shit in smoke anyways.
And i am absoultely with you when you said that all the mass prod unlock stuff is nonsense. I would also perfer rangers not getting cheaper and instead being elites. I would also be with you when shermans would be medium tanks (and not stuarts with a bit more HP) and able to bounce most 50 mm AT shells. That way US armor wouldnt be lock down by any little piece of shit AT.

@Kwok: Yes, build orders and knowing all thr CP and cost. Here are guys that dont study the game as we did

@Oneiros: Dont play armor in 1 vs 1 unless you do it on a very large 4 vs 4 map. Large maps are still not such an issue. 6 88 will would lock you even on a 1 vs 1 at goodwood when you play as armor doc. Luftwaffe, def doc, TH doc, probably even SE doc would lock you down quickly. One mistake from your side (like when you dont study the CP and cost of every single unit like kwok does it) and you have no chance of come back. BK doc wouldnt only lock you down, it would shred you since Tank IV´s (esspecially J and H) will come earlier as any of your shitty 76 shermans, boucne most of your 57 mm AT (while your tanks will blow up to every Nazi fart), will cost less upkeep and will also be cheaper, pens your tank easily and will almost shoot twice as fast. But hey, your sherman traverses the turret a bit faster. The better acceleration will help you to run back to your beloved base where you can observe the end of your glorious shermans.... your 76 guns will do shit against 50 mm Turret armor (or 80 mm hull armor) of tank IV´ btw.


all i say at this point: Lets get rid of that US "Quantity shit conscript spam".

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Tiger1996
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Tiger1996 » 14 Sep 2017, 19:55

I think the 88 barrage range is fine, and 88s generally are far from being OP at the moment.. therefore I believe the basic range is also fine and the price is justified as well... However, if anything; then it's the Def doc flak88 emplacements arty barrage that needs to be fixed, specifically before the Steam release. And I'm pretty sure MarKr knows what I am referring to. Maybe other users are also aware! As I reported that bug many times already.

Oneiros
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Oneiros » 14 Sep 2017, 20:24

Tiger1996 wrote:I think the 88 barrage range is fine, and 88s generally are far from being OP at the moment.. therefore I believe the basic range is also fine and the price is justified as well... However, if anything; then it's the Def doc flak88 emplacements arty barrage that needs to be fixed, specifically before the Steam release. And I'm pretty sure MarKr knows what I am referring to. Maybe other users are also aware! As I reported that bug many times already.


Im totally on your side at this point. Imo it's just the arty that needs to be changed. More cooldown would help, maybe more ammo costs... sth like that

kwok
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby kwok » 15 Sep 2017, 02:34

I mean... at this point I think markr said everything perfectly and nothing needs to be changed.

Also I thought the 88 limit was 4, counting emplaced and non emplaced. Any more than that is just exploit

Oneiros
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Oneiros » 18 Sep 2017, 17:27

MarKr wrote:As for 88s - you have mortars and mortars have smoke barrage (smoke barrage has way longer range than normal HE rounds), shoot that barrage on the 88. As long as the 88 is in smoke, it has accuracy lowered by 75%. 88s have very high accuracy at all ranges (about 90% at max range), when in smoke it drops to around 22% if you then attack with infantry, then they can get close and throw grenades at it. Even if 88 has HE loaded it will have trouble hitting your approaching infantry.
I am NOT saying that smoking the emplacement makes the approach to it absolutely safe! It can still hit you, but your units will not be doing "suicide run".

WM flak36 88mm barrage range: 200
25pounder barrage range 225 (275 with Supercharge upgrade) :?


thanks for the info about the smokes.
but we all know that 88's are covered. Mostly with flak-vierling(?). also there are positions in which there is no chance to get in mortar range.
also i am not complaining about the 88's damage or range against land-targets. It's the arty. As Brit I have to build a 17-pounder, anti inf flak & arty.
As for the wehrmacht, their long range anti tank is both, at gun AND arty. and because of the scattering 88's can easily destroy british arty.
but yeah I wouldn't even mind that, if the cooldown was not only ~30seconds. it seems like the cooldown already starts to count off while its shooting, and not after its finished.

kwok wrote:I mean... at this point I think markr said everything perfectly and nothing needs to be changed.

Also I thought the 88 limit was 4, counting emplaced and non emplaced. Any more than that is just exploit


Im pretty sure that there is no limitation.

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 18 Sep 2017, 17:50

88 are limited, 2 naked, 2 fortified.
Image

Oneiros
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Oneiros » 18 Sep 2017, 20:26

also while playing without popcap?

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 18 Sep 2017, 20:28

You're right, 88 arent limited curently.
Image

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Warhawks97
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Re: nerf 88 arty

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Sep 2017, 22:26

yes, because we never considered it as arty. I once asked why it is the only arty (besides hotchkiss maybe) that isnt limited althought its just as good as arty as a 25 pdr. Even better as 88 usually deals more damage per hit to 25 as 25 pdr to 88.

The answer was: Its a defensive tool (defensive gun like AT gun or so). Fact is, this weapon is all: AT, anti inf, anti air, arty. And in every role extremely good. As already noted, it bypasses also the 88 MM L/71 of jagdpanther etc in terms of damage (direct fire).


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