delivering reinforcement to our allies

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fulcrum709
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delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby fulcrum709 » 01 Sep 2017, 23:50

I wanted suggest the possibility to deliver reinforcement to our allies in multiplayer game. this option would be : if your allies is in difficulty and urgently need help you can of course bring some troops and armor vehicles or tanks but I guess it would interesting that once the reinforcement is delivered you can decide with a command button that these reinforcements become under the command of your allies and from that decision it is your allies who benefit directly of the reinforcement and use them as their own forces. In that way it will avoids that you disperse your energy and attention from your own front line and bring too much attention to the front line of your allies.

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Warhawks97
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Sep 2017, 00:07

well. Think twice about it maybe. Armor doc would spam shermans and give them to allis. Meanwhile the inf doc guys spams rangers for the armor doc players. Now think that with arty or whatever. It would be all about spam since we have quite a few spam docs. Shermans, Hetzer, Tank IV´s, rangers/rifles.

I think this is one of the interesting parts of the game that players have to pic their docs carefully (mostly) and that players are able to see more than "just their own frontline". Basically armor doc would become a potential "Supermarket" where "tanks are on sale". Same would go for TH doc. Other players would just "place orders"... why bother to build own units?

This could actually only work when there are no mass production upgrades in the game. And even then many basic things would have to be in common which is not the case (unlike in vcoh where at best a doc could get 1-3 more doc specific units that others couldnt get).

kwok
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby kwok » 02 Sep 2017, 02:15

on a less extreme scale of what warhawks mentioned, it is against the basic game design discouraging teamwork with combined arms. what it sounds like to me is that on principle you'd rather all doctrines be well balanced so don't have to depend on other teammates to bring those "urgently needed reinforcements". there's a topic for that if you wanted to make an opinion there. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2223

technical constraints make this impossible anyways. for example, how would the game know who you've given the reinforcements to in a 3v3 or 4v4 game?

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Redgaarden
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby Redgaarden » 02 Sep 2017, 12:12

The team should behave like one mindmass. And they aren't adding or removing any units, They are just putting them in someone elses care like "Hey sending you some help, can't micro it atm since I'm getting attacked, could you do it for me?" and since 90% of units need intensive micro to keep them alive where looking away for 2 seconds will get the unit killed, I think it's only logical since the latency makes it impossible to micro 2 screens at once.

But then again they need to change the UI and add a button and a shiton of other stuff I would presume.

But I think units changing control is already a thing in the campaign, so I dont think it's entirely impossible?

well. Think twice about it maybe. Armor doc would spam shermans and give them to allis. Meanwhile the inf doc guys spams rangers for the armor doc players. Now think that with arty or whatever. It would be all about spam since we have quite a few spam docs. Shermans, Hetzer, Tank IV´s, rangers/rifles.

I think this is one of the interesting parts of the game that players have to pic their docs carefully (mostly) and that players are able to see more than "just their own frontline". Basically armor doc would become a potential "Supermarket" where "tanks are on sale". Same would go for TH doc. Other players would just "place orders"... why bother to build own units?

This could actually only work when there are no mass production upgrades in the game. And even then many basic things would have to be in common which is not the case (unlike in vcoh where at best a doc could get 1-3 more doc specific units that others couldnt get).


Infantry doctrine and sherman doctrine are already doing that atm. Shermans get a 25% price reduction, so saying that they are on sale seems pretty accurate. I dont think it really changes much. Other than making it more fluid in moving them and stuff.

But I do agree that mass production upgrades are a pest. I know you never said anything bad about mass production upgrades, but do catch my drift.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

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Kr0noZ
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby Kr0noZ » 02 Sep 2017, 13:34

I'm not even sure if the engine allowed that feature, and even if it did - I think it would be horrible for balance, so I'd vote against it.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby mofetagalactica » 02 Sep 2017, 14:53

Kr0noZ wrote:I'm not even sure if the engine allowed that feature, and even if it did - I think it would be horrible for balance, so I'd vote against it.


What does balance has to do with something like that, its the same game of always just with better micromanagement. Mow has something like that and it works wonderfull.

kwok
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby kwok » 02 Sep 2017, 18:17

It wouldn't be an attribute thing, it'd require some level of scripting. Not sure what the dec team's lua/scar skill is.

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Warhawks97
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Sep 2017, 19:46

mofetagalactica wrote:
Kr0noZ wrote:I'm not even sure if the engine allowed that feature, and even if it did - I think it would be horrible for balance, so I'd vote against it.


What does balance has to do with something like that, its the same game of always just with better micromanagement. Mow has something like that and it works wonderfull.


bc same units have different cost depending on doctrine. We would have "supermarket" doctrines that supply the entire team. One dude spams shermans, the other rangers. At the end both would have an huge ammount of rangers/shermans at their disposal. Res managment would become obsolet bc of the spam abilities and the teamplay would become a sole word standing for nothing.


@red: I never said something against it, but overall i do think we would be better without any mass prod upgrade in game and instead focusing a doc on lets say armor by giving them different armored tools/support instead enabling it to throw the same shit against whatever + we would solve many early->late game balance issues.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby mofetagalactica » 02 Sep 2017, 20:50

Warhawks97 wrote:
mofetagalactica wrote:
Kr0noZ wrote:I'm not even sure if the engine allowed that feature, and even if it did - I think it would be horrible for balance, so I'd vote against it.


What does balance has to do with something like that, its the same game of always just with better micromanagement. Mow has something like that and it works wonderfull.


bc same units have different cost depending on doctrine. We would have "supermarket" doctrines that supply the entire team. One dude spams shermans, the other rangers. At the end both would have an huge ammount of rangers/shermans at their disposal. Res managment would become obsolet bc of the spam abilities and the teamplay would become a sole word standing for nothing.


@red: I never said something against it, but overall i do think we would be better without any mass prod upgrade in game and instead focusing a doc on lets say armor by giving them different armored tools/support instead enabling it to throw the same shit against whatever + we would solve many early->late game balance issues.


Res management its already a clusterfuck of inbalances anyway, i dont even know if devs are balancing upkeep if units, because i have seen some units eating too much MP.

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Warhawks97
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Sep 2017, 22:23

Well. Upkeep is a different story. But yeah, glad people notice it. The lowest MP upkeep has WH followed by brits (brits tank have sometimes lower less MP upkeep but much more fuel). Then comes PE and finally US which get on a same level with PE when supply yard is up and on same level to WH when first upgrade is up and usually the best when all are up except in terms of fuel upkeep of tanks where axis remain vastly superior. Snipers and recons however keep more expensive than axis one.

Still, the scenario i get is: Armor spams shermans and distributes the one or other pershing to mates. Inf spams rangers, arty doc shares the priests and RAF boosted commandos. Same goes then for axis.... gebirgs, Panther G, Hummel, TD spam and so on. The game would be even more reduced when it comes to unit varity and special doctrinal gameplay bc everybody would always have the finest stuff.

If people could send ressources to each other that would be more favored by me. The team as such would have a lot more benefits and effective ressource usage.

Also one thing i could imagine is that some basic units could be swapped. Usually non doctrinal units of a faction that require no unlock (rifles, volks) or which are shared by an entire faction (eg 76 sherman, hetzer). But then only if all mass production upgrades would be removed from the game.

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Redgaarden
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby Redgaarden » 03 Sep 2017, 00:50

If people could send ressources to each other that would be more favored by me. The team as such would have a lot more benefits and effective ressource usage.


What does it change? You send priest to allies so they can spend their munitions to use it, or they send munitions to you so you can use it? the total number of units shoud still stay the same.

Ok this concept doesn't work at all. Neither sending resources nor sending units. Since both will be abused. So how does shared control sound? The player doesn't lose the unit, you still pay for it and all the upgrades you have affects it, just your unit but controled by you and your teammate. But THAT I think is not possible to do with the coh engine.
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MarKr
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby MarKr » 03 Sep 2017, 01:31

The feature of transfering units to allies would require external scripts and even then I think it would create troubles - some units require specific entity earby to get upgrades and if this entity is in US faction and not in CW, then you are simply without upgrades. It would be possible to recode it but it would take long time finding all upgrades and adjusting them. Another extreme fuck up would be the units that are currently limited by certain number. The game works the way that it checks if the player that builds the unit has the maximum number or not and based on that allows or disallows to build more. So if this "unit swapping" would be possible, then each player could have one JT or one Tiger Ace or one ST, each player could have SAS unit and priests and Marine commandos etc. I am not sure if the game actually allows to check if your allies have some units and based on that limit building of own units...probably not because this concept was never intended for the game in the first place. Maybe it would be possible, again, with external scripts but it sounds as a hell of a lot of work for something that would throw the current ballance out of window.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby mofetagalactica » 03 Sep 2017, 03:08

Warhawks97 wrote:Well. Upkeep is a different story. But yeah, glad people notice it. The lowest MP upkeep has WH followed by brits (brits tank have sometimes lower less MP upkeep but much more fuel). Then comes PE and finally US which get on a same level with PE when supply yard is up and on same level to WH when first upgrade is up and usually the best when all are up except in terms of fuel upkeep of tanks where axis remain vastly superior. Snipers and recons however keep more expensive than axis one.

Still, the scenario i get is: Armor spams shermans and distributes the one or other pershing to mates. Inf spams rangers, arty doc shares the priests and RAF boosted commandos. Same goes then for axis.... gebirgs, Panther G, Hummel, TD spam and so on. The game would be even more reduced when it comes to unit varity and special doctrinal gameplay bc everybody would always have the finest stuff.

If people could send ressources to each other that would be more favored by me. The team as such would have a lot more benefits and effective ressource usage.

Also one thing i could imagine is that some basic units could be swapped. Usually non doctrinal units of a faction that require no unlock (rifles, volks) or which are shared by an entire faction (eg 76 sherman, hetzer). But then only if all mass production upgrades would be removed from the game.


You should make a post about upkeep cost, maybe mark or panzer would explain us why it is like that.

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MarKr
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Re: delivering reinforcement to our allies

Postby MarKr » 03 Sep 2017, 10:22

I wasn't there when the upkeeps were set in the first place but in general I would say they are set to keep playing viable for all factions in connection to their units costs and intended playstyle. WM and CW have expensive units but lower upkeep, while US have higher upkeep and cheaper units, PE being between. If you set upkeep the same for everyone, let's say the high US upkeep, then in early game WM/CW will have expensive units and high upkeep and so they will be able to field less units and every loss will be more painful than now, and later in the game US will upgrade upkeep and gain huge advantage in this field compared to other factions. On the other hand if you set it low for for everyone then again US will be able to spamm even more and later again with upgrades.

Some upkeep values are however set wrong due to mistakes - e.g. Hetzers take 1MP upkeep instead of 10 or Comets have about 7MP upkeep. This was reported to us recently and it will be fixed in the next patch.
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