AT teams

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mofetagalactica
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AT teams

Postby mofetagalactica » 09 Aug 2017, 02:56

I would like to suggest a little descrease change to prices for AT teams like Bazooka's and Panzerschreck team since after changes to HE and 2 Sec. Aim time, they have been feeling a bit overpriced for me.

I know i understand that they are designed for ambushes but still, i would like to see a slight descrease in their price. Please leave opinions and concerns about this.

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Tiger1996
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Re: AT teams

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Aug 2017, 03:50

Fully agreed.

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: AT teams

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 09 Aug 2017, 06:44

mofetagalactica wrote:I would like to suggest a little descrease change to prices for AT teams like Bazooka's and Panzerschreck team since after changes to HE and 2 Sec. Aim time, they have been feeling a bit overpriced for me.

I know i understand that they are designed for ambushes but still, i would like to see a slight descrease in their price. Please leave opinions and concerns about this.


You said it all, you answered your question, they aren't overpriced, if we touch that, it will Atilla rushing armor style and bk will be doomned, just with this simple price change.
Panzershcrecks, reoiless guns, piats, bazzokas are set that way for a real purpose.
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sgtToni95
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Re: AT teams

Postby sgtToni95 » 09 Aug 2017, 10:09

I wouldn't honestly disagree on such a change. PIATs have been nerfed and buffed recently, while keeping their price, but all other handheld AT weapons have been nerfed, and, expecially because you can now use them pretty much only from ambush, they lost some of their "aggressive" purpose and are now more defensive/passive units, being not anymore that good investiment they were.

I think dropping the prices of shreck squads to 340 wouldn't be that bad, while keeping zooks and piats as they are since already cheaper.

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: AT teams

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 09 Aug 2017, 11:23

Regarding the Panzershreck its true that i wouldn't be against it.
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Warhawks97
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Re: AT teams

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Aug 2017, 11:56

Why only for panzerschreck cost. If i remember correctly there was a huge discussion that Bazooka AT squad and Schreck AT squads should keep some differences in cost simply bc the weapons are different in strenght. Dropping just schrecks would put them on more or less on a same cost lvl as zooks are for completely different penetrattion and damage.

What about 320 for US, 330 for PE and 340 for WH if there should be any cost decrease? Coz i feel not that their prices are that wrong. They lost the aggressive potential but that was the intention. From ambush they are capabale of destroying actually any armor unlike their heavy AT gun counterparts in many cases. Also their advantages in urban combat. Going from house to house and shoot at targets.

In all i dont think a cost change is necessary. And if then i would prefer it the way i suggested.

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Tiger1996
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Re: AT teams

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Aug 2017, 15:30

I would say 300 MP for WH AT teams, 290 MP for US AT teams, 310 MP for PE AT teams... And the prices of PIAT teams are untouched.

Note:
Currently the WH AT team costs 360 MP, US AT teams cost 330 MP (and 250 MP after inf doc cost reduction unlock), and PE AT team also costs 360 MP.

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sgtToni95
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Re: AT teams

Postby sgtToni95 » 09 Aug 2017, 15:37

Because......... "reasons"

To be clearer, why do you think PIAT should be more expansive than any AT squad?
Last edited by sgtToni95 on 09 Aug 2017, 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Redgaarden
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Re: AT teams

Postby Redgaarden » 09 Aug 2017, 16:12

I agree anti tank squads are way to expensive. 4 man squad that has insane reinforce cost with no real benefit over 6 man squads that picked up some personal anti tank.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

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Tiger1996
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Re: AT teams

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Aug 2017, 16:40

sgtToni95 wrote:To be clearer, why do you think PIAT should be more expansive than any AT squad?

Currently the PIAT team costs 320 MP and the Commando PIAT teams costs 400 MP.

Well, maybe I wasn't correct about PIAT teams, I honestly thought they cost less than that...
So if the prices of AT teams were to be ever changed accordingly:
Tiger1996 wrote:I would say 300 MP for WH AT teams, 290 MP for US AT teams, 310 MP for PE AT teams... And the prices of PIAT teams are untouched.

Note:
Currently the WH AT team costs 360 MP, US AT teams cost 330 MP (and 250 MP after inf doc cost reduction unlock), and PE AT team also costs 360 MP.

Then I would say that the PIAT team could also cost around 300 MP and the Commando PIAT team could be 350 MP.

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sgtToni95
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Re: AT teams

Postby sgtToni95 » 09 Aug 2017, 17:01

I think PIATs are still generally worse to other handheld AT.
They have been buffed so now they don't need 3 shots, or better, 3 hits to kill an halftrack (imagine having to hit an halftrack 3 times with zooks or shrecks), but their shell velocity is still fast enough to avoid its shells, and even if they get in range, I saw PIATs missing a lot of shots even from close distance since they still have the worst accuracy.

They CAN score critical hits on tanks, even the biggest ones, but from PZ4 up they bounce most of the shells (when they hit), and yet they need more than the 2-3 penetrations that a zook/shreck would need against a tank of the same tier (usually 4 maybe 5) and sometimes you see them scoring a critical after the other when the target has only 1 HP remaining.

About immobilizing, you can understand they're not so reliable, and there's not always arty ready to support, or any weapon to safely finish the immobilized target, while with a zook/shreck squad you might be able to flank or to kill the target with the first two hits. And usually axis side has rockets which can kill the tank without needing to immobilize it first. And basically I honestly think that killing a tank, is still better than immobilizing it, since it's a critical that deals pretty much no damage and it could be repaired almost instantly.

Moreover PIATs are a basic handheld AT unit for CW, but in no doc they have the possibility to use or upgrade AT weapons to the "core" infantry as it is possible with rangers, with volks and grenadiers in WH doctrine, so they're more necessary than in other factions in my opinion.

Theese are the reasons why i think that PIATs should maintain the lowest price between all handheld AT squads, and i honestly think that trying with a smaller price decrease would be a more careful choice instead of decreasing the price so much and making all squads prices so close to each other, like not considering the still present difference in performances.

So I think 340/335 for shrecks squads, 320 for zooks and 310 for PIATs could be a reasonable price drop IF that has to happen.

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Tiger1996
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Re: AT teams

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Aug 2017, 17:30

sgtToni95 wrote:imagine having to hit an halftrack 3 times with zooks or shrecks

Hehe, it can happen... The Quad AA half-track can survive 2 rockets. Which is not even an armored car but just a half-track!

Anyway, what if you imagine Shrecks and Zookas shooting above obstacles? ^^

PIATs are not necessarily the worst.. just they are unique\different.

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sgtToni95
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Re: AT teams

Postby sgtToni95 » 09 Aug 2017, 18:21

1. I said it used to happen before the buff, now they can kil in 1-2 shots, while performances against tanks, expecially when it comes about killing, makes them need to hit+penetrate many more times than zooks or shrecks.

2. how many times did it happen to you that you had to hit an halftrack 3 times? more than the times you needed just 1 or 2 that usually strike together? I honestly doubt that.

3. When you have obstacles in PIATs range, your view range is surely longer, so you mist be very distracted usually to let them hit, and they still have the worst accuracy and shell velocity.
I think they had the lowest price for a performance reason, and not because..... well there are not many other reasons.
PIATs have always been able to shoot over obstacles, but they still had the lowest price and performances. And i guess since you didn't even know their current price you must not be very aware of their accuracy That's why i'm suggesting to keep the price scale similar, just reduce all prices.

5. This is an off topic where i stubbornly try to make tiger understand how absurd his behaviour and reasoning is on forum sometimes (tried many times and it never worked due to subject being too stubborn and not listening to what is said to him):

You should stop suggesting balance based on what CAN happen (I myself wrote it in caps when i used it, so it'd be taken carefully, knowing you're one that really likes theese examples): one of your arguments to nerf boys was "they can shred infantry", which is true, but it's a very rare, and surely rarer that boys dying to infantry in a 1v1 engagement fought in equal conditions of cover and movement.

Quick example: you said many times that tommies coming out of triage center CAN shred luft infantry and they're the best inf unit in the game. I can here challenge you to make a video collecting all engagements that your freshly made tommies from triage center "SHRED" luft infantry, and how many times it's the other way around. I can bet my ass luft paras will win ALL the times against a rifle section with no upgrades or officer bonuses, chance might go up only if you get rile section veted and with upgrades. But in this case you make it happen, which is different from "CAN HAPPEN".

To show you better what i mean: in the last video you posted, you send glider in my base and volks equipped with mp40 SHRED them. Now: do you think i should start a balancing topic on forum saying that volks should not be provided by trige center since they CAN SHRED close quarter commandos? Because this is exactly the same that you did with tommies and triage center, and this seems your logic sometimes.

The post started good, and it seemed to have some logic, but then you screwed it with theese
I asked you the reasons on which you base your suggestions, and all you did was changing your suggestion in price and then making little useful comments on what i wrote. NO REASON, and my post was:

Because......... "reasons"
To be clearer, why do you think PIAT should be more expansive than any AT squad?


The aim of this part is not getting an answer, which would be of no interest for others, it's just making you try to understand other people's point of view (yes might happen they have one, and might happen it differs from yours), and to try to make you understand how absurd certain posts you make are by showing you other equal examples that might "touch" you.

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Tiger1996
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Re: AT teams

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Aug 2017, 18:47

sgtToni95 wrote:1. I said it used to happen before the buff, now they can kil in 1-2 shots, while performances against tanks, expecially when it comes about killing, makes them need to hit+penetrate many more times than zooks or shrecks.

2. how many times did it happen to you that you had to hit an halftrack 3 times? more than the times you needed just 1 or 2 that usually strike together? I honestly doubt that.

3. When you have obstacles in PIATs range, your view range is surely longer, so you mist be very distracted usually to let them hit, and they still have the worst accuracy and shell velocity.
I think they had the lowest price for a performance reason, and not because..... well there are not many other reasons.
PIATs have always been able to shoot over obstacles, but they still had the lowest price and performances. And i guess since you didn't even know their current price you must not be very aware of their accuracy That's why i'm suggesting to keep the price scale similar, just reduce all prices.

I never said that I didn't know their actual price. Simply, I mistakenly thought of something different.. and then I remembered. You know people can sometimes forget? Don't you?! Therefore I corrected.
And I just gave my 2 cents here. As I suggested what I think to be fair prices; and with my suggestions, I kept the current price differences with absolutely no changes btw... Except that WH AT squad would cost same as the basic PIAT squad. But the Commando PIAT squad would remain to be most expensive, obviously because of superior abilities.
Do you not like my price suggestions? Well then, who cares! Not like I even care that much what would be the new prices anyway.
So I just told what I think about the prices... Why are you making it a big deal right now?

sgtToni95 wrote:5. This is an off topic where i stubbornly try to make tiger understand how absurd his behaviour and reasoning is on forum sometimes (tried many times and it never worked due to subject being too stubborn and not listening to what is said to him):

You should stop suggesting balance based on what CAN happen (I myself wrote it in caps when i used it, so it'd be taken carefully, knowing you're one that really likes theese examples): one of your arguments to nerf boys was "they can shred infantry", which is true, but it's a very rare, and surely rarer that boys dying to infantry in a 1v1 engagement fought in equal conditions of cover and movement.

Quick example: you said many times that tommies coming out of triage center CAN shred luft infantry and they're the best inf unit in the game. I can here challenge you to make a video collecting all engagements that your freshly made tommies from triage center "SHRED" luft infantry, and how many times it's the other way around. I can bet my ass luft paras will win ALL the times against a rifle section with no upgrades or officer bonuses, chance might go up only if you get rile section veted and with upgrades. But in this case you make it happen, which is different from "CAN HAPPEN".

To show you better what i mean: in the last video you posted, you send glider in my base and volks equipped with mp40 SHRED them. Now: do you think i should start a balancing topic on forum saying that volks should not be provided by trige center since they CAN SHRED close quarter commandos? Because this is exactly the same that you did with tommies and triage center, and this seems your logic sometimes.

The post started good, and it seemed to have some logic, but then you screwed it with theese
I asked you the reasons on which you base your suggestions, and all you did was changing your suggestion in price and then making little useful comments on what i wrote. NO REASON, and my post was:

Because......... "reasons"
To be clearer, why do you think PIAT should be more expansive than any AT squad?


The aim of this part is not getting an answer, which would be of no interest for others, it's just making you try to understand other people's point of view (yes might happen they have one, and might happen it differs from yours), and to try to make you understand how absurd certain posts you make are by showing you other equal examples that might "touch" you.

I honestly don't know from where all this shit suddenly came from now... Anyway, off-topic. Even though I CAN respond each point btw, as I would also "show" you and let you "understand" how "stubborn" and "absurd" your shitty examples actually are.
But I will not respond you here.. u know why? Because it's off-topic!

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mofetagalactica
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Re: AT teams

Postby mofetagalactica » 09 Aug 2017, 21:08

Panzerblitz1 wrote:
You said it all, you answered your question, they aren't overpriced, if we touch that, it will Atilla rushing armor style and bk will be doomned, just with this simple price change.
Panzershcrecks, reoiless guns, piats, bazzokas are set that way for a real purpose.


Well i disagree with this since its limited to 2 squads and i know they are designed to ambush , but remember this is a game where you can have spotters that can see over 20km behind objects and buildings and reveal ambushed units, so ambushes are something really weird and glitchy (most of the times there is one guy outside the cover) since there is no real vision in-game. So a unit that cost this much and can be deleted so easily should be changed. We already have better ambush AT units to use in-game that only cost MP and even cheaper so having a squad armed with AT's that can be used in a agresive way should be fine too. Not everyone wants or like to play defensive mode.

If you still want them as ambush units and stay with the price, then help them and give them more tools, like crawl hability or more range when ambushed or not having aim time penalty , so i dont know.
Last edited by mofetagalactica on 10 Aug 2017, 00:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Warhawks97
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Re: AT teams

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Aug 2017, 21:40

I would be carefull with too drastic drops. Also the noticeable cost difference between zooks and schreck should keep up. Quality/quantity thing if you remember. Besides that WH has so far the lowest upkeep of all factions in general (so i belive for AT squads its the same).

I would drop the cost for each squad by 30 points maximum at first. The units shouldnt be for sale. It would neglect the steps taken to prevent infantry rushes. So people should afterall stay carefully with them.

And not below 300 MP basic cost. 300 US, 320-330 the axis squads with schrecks. PIATs idk.


I wouldnt give them crawl. Otherwise the only way not to run into their ambush with vehicles would be spotters. At the end we would have a "crawl battle". And docs focused on armor would be trapped nonstop. CW would literally only have leutnant for spotting them without wasting a unit like recce or dingo (their spotting units). So pls no crawl or passive camo (they would suddenly ambush in a blink of an eye and shoot althought you already fired at them. TD´s or AT guns are nasty enough already working this way. You are just shooting them and "bling" invisible.

So cost drop without exaggerating would be i think the best solution over crawl and passive camo.


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