Replacing 75mm emplacement with 88mm emplacement

[MarKr]

Hi,

I have a question for those of you who play Defensive doctrine. Do you use the 75mm L48 AT emplacement? Or maybe the question should rather be: Would you like to replace this emplacement with 88mm PaK43 emplacement?
ATM the 75mm emplacement is available with the Pantherturm unlock and by the time you get this thing there are usually Churchills and other stuff that the 75mm AT gun is too unreliable against. PaK43 is the AT gun that Def doc can deploy from 2nd building or 28mm Halftrack and also it is the same gun that is mounted on e.g. KT. So the emplacement would pose serious threat even to late-game tanks.

Of course the emplacement would need to adjust its cost and would be unlocked later with flak36. All in all it would simply be stronger 17 pounder emplacement.

So, would you welcome such change or do you think it would be rather useless?
EDIT: just to sum up the differences between flak36 88mm and PaK43 88mm:
Flak36:
Can rotate automatically in 360°
Can attack planes with good efficiency thanks to accuracy
Can switch between AP and HE ammo making it viable vs both infantry and vehicles
Has less penetration vs stronger allied tanks such as Churchills (especially Croc), Pershings etc.

PaK43:
Strong penetration potential vs pretty much every allied tank
Only fires in set arc infront of it and needs to be rotated manually
Cannot attack planes

So if this AT emplacement were to be implemented it would probably take less time to build and cost less than flak36 since PaK43 would require more babysitting (manual turning) and is purely AT while flak has more utility (AA, AP/HE, can shoot barrages, participates in VT)

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Yes! Just yes! 88 pak is useless lategame, so it gets usefull atleast you guys make cry with all these good changes!. *sorry if double post phone jerks around*

[Warhawks97]

Makes sense. I didnt play def doc really. And i dont have the full tectree pic in mind. But sure that the 75 mm emplacment comes with Pantherturm? Isnt there this unlock in the second column bottom? Or is that just making emplacment stronger.


But generally yes it makes sense.

Maybe take a look at other stuff that might be changebale. For example that pioneer upgrade comes is in the branch with the infantry defensive upgrade. Atm the def doc branches are just weird mixes and unlock lines that often dont fit together in my opinion.

[Krieger Blitzer]

YES from my side as well...

[Kr0noZ]

If you want to mess up def doc I'd like a crack at it as well. Some things never sat well with me but Xali did what he thought was best. Markr, are you on discord sometime? I have a few ideas to make def doc work a little better / differently.

Seeing how i was the only betatester who played that doctrine a lot ( to my knowledge) i think i'm somewhat entiteled here

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Kronoz what the fu**? how it kill's def? or break it lol... it's a very good idea. and people like it. some even hype for this i count to this.

[speeddemon02]

if it could be toggled as a reward unit between the 75mm and 88mm then I would be very excited with the addition.

When I first started out I used the 75mm emplacement all the time. I do not use the emplacement much anymore as all the pros plus the arty ability is too useful and typically only use flaks. I've tried the pak43 and with the limited cone and movement speed now never use it. I would rather have the 75mm w/wolfram and HE flak36 to disable heavy armor. I would assume the cone would stay extremely narrow on the emplacement. While the ability to get a pak43 to the front quickly in this form I like, I still do not like having to worry about moving it as it is easily out maneuvered.

[kwok]

I thought about it and I don't think it will make much difference. I don't think it will make any difference at all as the marginal benefits of Axis AT are very quickly diminishing as the the caliber gets bigger; Allied tanks just don't require that gigantic of guns to slay (hence why the elefant is rarely used even by me. Too many other tradeoffs in mobility and anti infantry for a not so bad problem and high cost). Ceteris paribus, they will both play the same role and because of how late they come, they will be bombed out. Since a lot of the artillery in doctrines are being shuffled around this patch though, I can see it coming back as a reasonable unit but people probably won't know to use it.

By making the change it will call attention to it from people who will "test" it and the most extreme outcome of the change is that it starts up a rise in def doc sim city strategies. But that's a more meta thing than a balance thing and not necessarily a BAD thing. Just a thing.

When I play def doc, I am either trying to create super "for the fatherland" soldiers (which i am going to take as a personal jab...) or rain hell from the skies. I typically don't play sim city because I find that boring but others might and would like the change.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

I thought about it and I don't think it will make much difference. I don't think it will make any difference at all as the marginal benefits of Axis AT are very quickly diminishing as the the caliber gets bigger; Allied tanks just don't require that gigantic of guns to slay (hence why the elefant is rarely used even by me. Too many other tradeoffs in mobility and anti infantry for a not so bad problem and high cost). Ceteris paribus, they will both play the same role and because of how late they come, they will be bombed out. Since a lot of the artillery in doctrines are being shuffled around this patch though, I can see it coming back as a reasonable unit but people probably won't know to use it.

By making the change it will call attention to it from people who will "test" it and the most extreme outcome of the change is that it starts up a rise in def doc sim city strategies. But that's a more meta thing than a balance thing and not necessarily a BAD thing. Just a thing.

When I play def doc, I am either trying to create super "for the fatherland" soldiers (which i am going to take as a personal jab...) or rain hell from the skies. I typically don't play sim city because I find that boring but others might and would like the change.

So play bigger Maps as then simcity won't work as you always write, don't be so negative dude

[kwok]

I thought about it and I don't think it will make much difference. I don't think it will make any difference at all as the marginal benefits of Axis AT are very quickly diminishing as the the caliber gets bigger; Allied tanks just don't require that gigantic of guns to slay (hence why the elefant is rarely used even by me. Too many other tradeoffs in mobility and anti infantry for a not so bad problem and high cost). Ceteris paribus, they will both play the same role and because of how late they come, they will be bombed out. Since a lot of the artillery in doctrines are being shuffled around this patch though, I can see it coming back as a reasonable unit but people probably won't know to use it.

By making the change it will call attention to it from people who will "test" it and the most extreme outcome of the change is that it starts up a rise in def doc sim city strategies. But that's a more meta thing than a balance thing and not necessarily a BAD thing. Just a thing.

When I play def doc, I am either trying to create super "for the fatherland" soldiers (which i am going to take as a personal jab...) or rain hell from the skies. I typically don't play sim city because I find that boring but others might and would like the change.

So play bigger Maps as then simcity won't work as you always write, don't be so negative dude

Agreed to an extent. Sim city CAN still work, but not so easily, it'd require skill.
And I didn't say anything negative though? It's almost as if you didn't read what I said, saw the words "simcity" and assumed my whole post. I didn't even write a halfpage block of text like others on the forum...

[Warhawks97]

If you want to mess up def doc I'd like a crack at it as well. Some things never sat well with me but Xali did what he thought was best. Markr, are you on discord sometime? I have a few ideas to make def doc work a little better / differently.

Seeing how i was the only betatester who played that doctrine a lot ( to my knowledge) i think i'm somewhat entiteled here

Ah. Nice to hear it. I am getting excited that we may focus a more defensive organized doctrine with logical unlock trees (the main reason i didnt play def doc much.... in every line was everything. Or it felt like that. There was no branch where i could say: "I want to go for that strategy, i go this branch". It was more like you somehow have to start unlock stuff you dont want untill reaching the stuff you want and then starting elsewhere. I hope you know what i mean.^^

[XAHTEP39]

Good idea! What is the plan of introduction 88-mm Pak 43/41 empl. ?
- Fully instead 75-mm Pak 40 empl. ?
- As reward unit instead 75-mm Pak 40 empl. ?
- As reward unit instead 88-mm Flak 36 empl. ?
- To remove simple 88-mm Pak 43/41 ?

[sgtToni95]

What about the model? Wouldn't it be a bigger gun than the previous one? Do you already have it?

[MarKr]

- Fully instead 75-mm Pak 40 empl. ?

At first I thought this would happen but now I am more in favor of this:

- As reward unit instead 75-mm Pak 40 empl. ?

What about the model? Wouldn't it be a bigger gun than the previous one? Do you already have it?

The model of the gun itself is bigger but still fits the size of the emplacement because the current 75mm emplacement actually had inside a model of 50mm PaK with stats of 75mm PaK.
As you can see the model of PaK43 fits the emplacement model without "reaching out through sandbags"

View from rear:

View from front


So it works, including animations and everything.

[Warhawks97]

Nice work.

What will be the range? Most ATG emplacments have 80 range.

If there is any weapon that deserves 85 range, than this one actually.

[MarKr]

I did not set that up yet. I did not know if people would be interested in this thing so I just tried if the thing works (animation etc.) so that I don't offer for implementation something that cannot be implemented

[Panzerblitz1]

im seing more as a complete replacement of the unused PAk75 emplacement, its more logical to see that heavy Pak emplaced.

[Krieger Blitzer]

im seing more as a complete replacement of the unused PAk75 emplacement, its more logical to see that heavy Pak emplaced.

Agreed.

[Warhawks97]

unless the 75 emplacment would be available after choosing doc and the one or other HQ tec.

If 75 is unlocked together with this one you can remove the 75 mm. If not they can be either reward or both available. In both scenarios the 75 mm would require only doc pick and second HQ upgrade.

[MarKr]

IIRC they cannot be both available at the same time because Def doc Pios have no more free space in their build UI. But even if they did, how often do you see the 75mm emplacement built? And it is hard to say if making the 75mm available without Patherturm upgrade would make people use it more often...

[Jalis]

Make it a reward, it will solve discussion, and also free slot problem. roughly Markr propose, players choose. Everybody is happy.

my opinion, that dont worth so much in pvp matter, is pak 88 is not obviously necessary. you have pak 40 < panther bunker < flak 88 (except if flak 88 is no more really a 88L71). However if it is an unanime players claim to have such emplacement.

[Warhawks97]

(except if flak 88 is no more really a 88L71)

Currently The flak 36 performs better against the Pershing when it comes to penetration.

Also that gun as incredible 150 to 200 damage. The Pak 43 (88 L/71) just "135 to 165" At the end this means that the max damage for flak 36 (actually the weaker 88) is (750-) 1000 damage. For the pak 43 (675-) 825

Another thing that favours the flak 36 still is the range classification.

Flak 88 from short-mid-long-distance:
0-35/35-50/50-65/80 (max 85 range)


Pak 43 (unemplaced) as comparission:
20/35/45/60 (max range 80)....

Thats a significant difference when it comes to the loss of penetration over diastance.


However for some reasons there are also discrepancies when it comes to range classification that confuse me.

As comparision the axis 75mm and 75 mm emplaced and US 76mm unemplaced have
0-15/15-30/30-45/45-55 (max range 75)

US emplaced and CW 17 pounders (emplaced and unemplaced)
20/35/50/60 (max range 80)....


can we get here some more standardisation for the gun types in terms of range classification?

If it helps:

Tiger range classification (short to distant, same gun as flak 36)
0-15/15-30/30-45/45-60

Jagdpanther (pak 43):
0-15/15-30/30-45/45-55 (max range 65 unambushed)

Firefly 17 pdr
0-10/10-25/25-40/40-55



for AT guns i would use this as standard classification of ranges:
0-15/15-30/30-45/45-55



And when the pak 43 comes as emplacment it then needs something it can do better than basic 88. Right now the pak 43 pens Jumbo, SP and churchill crocc much better. Basic targets also but those are killed by the 36 very well as well (eg basic churchill). Even better due to the clear damage advantage of flak 36 over pak 43.

[Warhawks97]

Can i bring back some attention here?

Regarding by previous post and question:

How will ranges, damage and penetration power be for the new pak 43 emplaced vs the flak 36?
Will the normal 88 flak 36 88 mm /L56 (basically a Tiger gun) afterall keep its skyhigh damage and thus vastly superior to the actually superior pak 43 88mm/L71?

Or will it be more like that the 88mm flak 36 will get tiger gun performences (damage/pen/ range classification) but therefore more multirole (anti inf/anti air/arty/360 degree fire angel) while the 88mm pak 43 emplacment will be the better anti tank weapon (vastly superior pen and superior damage)?

I think with this new pak 43 emplacment the standard flak 36 wont need this kind of damage anymore or that kind of "cheated" range classification.
If a player needs damage and pen->88mm Pak 43, if he needs a multipurpose weapon-> 88 mm flak 36

[Krieger Blitzer]

Flak 88s are not over-performing, and their range is not a cheat at all.. it's correct like that and should always be.
And just like the 88mm gun of the Tiger1, flak 88s currently are unable to penetrate the Crocodile Churchill from the front... They are not much better than Tiger's cannon.

[kwok]

I think what warhawks is saying is what will be the difference between the flak 88 and the 88pak, not that anything is over performing. It's a question on game design, not everythign he says is an axis nerf/allied buff balance question.

Warhawks, it could just be a cheap AT purpose only emplacement while the flak 88 is a higher tier more expensive multi role emplacement.