Wirbelwind.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Hey everyone. I wannna talk about the wirbelwind price, it's just to high there people agree but don't come to forum so i Do it. First off 500 mp 60 fuel? or 50 and 50 ammo for he is just to much! don't forget there way's better aa tanks like from def doc or british crusader, wich are way's cheaper and has he by default! markr told me wirbelwind does much dmg too emplacement's well crusader does almost same and def doc one does even more then both combined! also wirbelwind dies to every small ht even 37mm's. while other's not. wirbelwind's also are never used who of you ever saw a wirbelwind ingame? maybe every 5-9 game or 4v4 ... tell your opinions.

[Danikas]

I agree that price should be decreased, right now this unit is never used.

[Shanks]

You're right, it should cost less

[MarKr]

Just to put some information to correct perspective. Wirblewind costs the same as Ostwind in BK doctrine (Ost can get cheaper with doctrinal unlocks). The armor of Wirblewind is exactely the same as the one of Ostwind and Möbelwagen, they all have also the same ammount of HP. As for "it dies to even 37mm AT". I did tests - US 37mm AT gun at max range with no vet against Wirblewinds:
1st test:
Miss: 1x; Deflect: 2x; Penetrated: 3x - 3rd pen. destroyed the unit
2nd test:
Miss: 0x; Deflect: 3x; Pen. 3x - 3rd pen. destroyed the unit
3rd test:
Miss: 4x; Deflect: 4x; Pen. 3x - 3rd pen. destroyed the unit
4th test:
Miss: 0x; Deflect 3x; Pen. 3x - 3rd pen. destroyed the unit
5th test:
Miss: 6x; Deflect: 2x; Pen. 4x - 3rd pen. destroyed main gun; 3rd pen. destroyed the unit

So it doesn't really seem like it gets raped hard with these guns. Also as already said Ost and Möbel have the same armor and HP so they will perform the same, at least as far as armor goes.

Compared to Ost and Möbel, it has less damage per bullet but fires way faster, HE can eat emplacements really fast (same as Ost, don't remember Möbel)...it is effective against planes. I don't see what is wrong with it really.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Just to put some information to correct perspective. Wirblewind costs the same as Ostwind in BK doctrine (Ost can get cheaper with doctrinal unlocks). The armor of Wirblewind is exactely the same as the one of Ostwind and Möbelwagen, they all have also the same ammount of HP. As for "it dies to even 37mm AT". I did tests - US 37mm AT gun at max range with no vet against Wirblewinds:
1st test:
Miss: 1x; Deflect: 2x; Penetrated: 3x - 3rd pen. destroyed the unit
2nd test:
Miss: 0x; Deflect: 3x; Pen. 3x - 3rd pen. destroyed the unit
3rd test:
Miss: 4x; Deflect: 4x; Pen. 3x - 3rd pen. destroyed the unit
4th test:
Miss: 0x; Deflect 3x; Pen. 3x - 3rd pen. destroyed the unit
5th test:
Miss: 6x; Deflect: 2x; Pen. 4x - 3rd pen. destroyed main gun; 3rd pen. destroyed the unit

So it doesn't really seem like it gets raped hard with these guns. Also as already said Ost and Möbel have the same armor and HP so they will perform the same, at least as far as armor goes.

Compared to Ost and Möbel, it has less damage per bullet but fires way faster, HE can eat emplacements really fast (same as Ost, don't remember Möbel)...it is effective against planes. I don't see what is wrong with it really.

Ok so it's just the price now luft is already a high mp price doctrine, making a wirbelwind is often a neckbreaker... I saw so often luft without any aa because the price if you make wirbel's but no fallis your wirbel get instand rekt by tanks and stuff so you lost it, and also the mp to make fallis, i once asked a mate he was luft to make aa He said, it's to expensive 1 hour later in same game He still said, 'i can't still no mp and if i make it i have no mp for anything else' He also just stopped to use gebirgs keep them back, to get the 500 mp. it then got one shotted in static position and he couldn't stand up the whole game.. So I demand 450 mp atleast fuel price is alright!

[Krieger Blitzer]

I also agree that Wirbelwind is actually too expensive for its current performance.

[speeddemon02]

Maybe if it came with HE rounds already

[Medic Truck]

It is perfectly fine as it is. Very powerful and totally worth it.

[JimQwilleran]

It has the highest suppression of all weapons in game. 2 sec of firing and even elites are pinned. I always keep repeating that if you are not stupid to drive ostwind or wirbelwind right into an at gun, and combine it with falls/storms - it's unstoppable.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Agree to Nami.

And imo, as any PE unit being "powerfull for higher price", it is totally fair to not cut its price, especially if argument for price off, is
unit "surviveability", unless, as Nami said, "ur not stupid to drive it into the AT gun".

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Wirbelwind sucks, I have never seen it reaching vet.2 even. It's a "glass cannon" damage and suppression are high indeed, but usually Wirbelwind dies as soon as it enters the battlefield, it's a free kill for turbo Hellcats and Achilles. Playing as allies I have always considered this unit as a free vet exp. for my tank hunters.

The list of anti-inf vehicles considering cost/effectiveness ratio according to my opinion.
1) M16 Quad cal - very fast, very cheap, early available, no ammo required, the only vehicles of its class with which I had crazy kill counts (up to 100 inf kills), also shreds PE trucks like nothing.
2) Crusader - no ammo required, available in each doc, extremely good in RE doc, just 400 mp.
3) Ostwind - good after tech unlock which decreases price, but requires ammo, fragile because of long reloading time.
4) Wirbelwind - absolute outsider, hard to get because of insane tank factory price ( is it still 550mp? for tank factory with the weakest units in compare to other factions, lol), high cost for unit as well.

But the biggest reasons why cheap allied AA's are dominating the battlefield and axis AA's suck (though they are supposed to be better) are overrepair ability and fast allied tank hunters. Overrepair allows Crusader to absorb up to 3 schreck shots, HE m4 can take up to 4 rockets, while axis AA's are super sweaty targets for fast allied TH's, while axis can't deal with allied AA's because they don't have similar units, their TH's are slow ass and have no turrets.

[MarKr]

@sukin: Once I saw you reading this topic I was thinking "if he writes a reply here, he is definitely gonna mention Tank factory cost"

Anyway:
- M16 is cheaper and faster but also has no HE so it doesn't do much vs emplacements and pretty much every shot from anything that can penetrate armor penetrates it
- you say that Wirble has good damage but is too fragile, while Ostwind is fragile because of reload times...they have same HP, same armor. Thus if you mark Wirble as "glasscannon" then you should do the same with Ostwind
- "insane tank factory price ( is it still 550mp? for tank factory with the weakest units in compare to other factions, lol)" "other factions" usually have TDs and tanks in one building but PE has tanks here and TDs in the other building. TD building is cheaper but for SE and Luft most of your special units are in tank factory - flammenhetzer, Wespe, Beobachtungspanzer, Stubby PIVs, Wirblewind, Panther and also Bergetieger (which is the most durable and fastest repairing unit in game (which can overrepair? not sure now), and it is the only way for PE to scavenge wrecks for resources). So 2 out of 3 factions have most of their toys here. Ironically enough TH doc has most of their toys in TD factory so for them the tank factory can be considered too expensive as they only have there PIV F1 and bergetieger but it is up to the player if he decides to invest into the building or not in this case.
- Cost of Wirble is same as cost of Ostwind (Ost can get price reduction with doctrinal unlock though)
- and this one:

But the biggest reasons why cheap allied AA's are dominating the battlefield and axis AA's suck (though they are supposed to be better) are overrepair ability and fast allied tank hunters. Overrepair allows Crusader to absorb up to 3 schreck shots, HE m4 can take up to 4 rockets, while axis AA's are super sweaty targets for fast allied TH's, while axis can't deal with allied AA's because they don't have similar units, their TH's are slow ass and have no turrets.

This comparison makes little sense. You compare overrepaired HTs/Crusaders being attacked by schrecks to non-overrepaired medium tanks being attacked by tank hunters. In this sense an overrepaired Wirble would also soak 3 or 4 zooka rockets just as well as overrepaired HT would not survive direct hit from Axis TD, overrepaired Crusader would maybe survive 2 hits? not sure now.
So from my point of view, this comparison is misleading.

[kwok]

Lol, Markr kills with numbers. Exposing the failures of anecdotal players with facts, I always I love it.

I completely disagree that the wirbelwind should be adjusted in price or balanced at all. I think there is zero problem with it. I only want to bring up some reasons why I think it's not being used in case that makes any difference to you, markr.

I think a big factor is that luft have SO many other options in anti inf and anti air, that it makes the wirbel obsolete. A player would rather pay for the newly hyper durable over drive dps terminator fallsj that can collect better scaling veterancy than a wirbelwind which costs fuel that delays the questionably out-of-place panther. On top of that, the wirbelwind, unlike the hyper durable fallsj, is vulnerable to AT which exposes them to giving the enemy more options to attack. It's not an intuitive concept, but basically by having a vehicle you expose your composition to being vulnerable rather than balanced becuase now AT units can do damage to the total investment made into an army composition. This is partially why AB is "so strong", becuase it is predominately an inf only doctrine which limits the reasonable assortment of units an opponent can build against it. This effect is magnified by the fact that players in this community just LOVE to do THEIR units and impost THEIR way instead of building to adapt.

So I don't think it's a problem of the wirbelwind more so it is a problem of the doctrine as a whole with many out of place units, making the wirbelwind pretty much obsolete. Should that be fixed? I dunno. But can it be fixed? Ironically the best way I think to fix it is by literally nerfing the rest of luft as well as all the other doctrines. I think we talked about this general idea a while back when terror doc was a huge talking piece. I think Toni and Kronoz would have actually thought more about this "blanket nerf" as well. Seems like this "balanced vs specialized" convo is coming back up again.