General discussion on the recent balance

[Krieger Blitzer]

About triage center i'd like to say that i disagree it should produce sappers squads for brits: i know flamethrower has been buffed recently, but tell me Tiger, do you really think sappers can do anything in combat comparable to rifles or volks? Would you really get close enough to them when you see they have a flamethrower, when you can just kill them from far away? They can't be upgraded with any kind of mg, they can't throw nades and they even have lower accuracy lee enfields.

I think Sappers can beat freshly deployed Volks, yes. But it's true they can't be upgraded with any weapons though.. however, they can still grab something from the ground... Which actually happens quite often.

And i don't think number of emplacements depends on the number of sappers squads you have on the field, but on the resources and on the territories you have. Your logic seems like "i have 3 sappers squads, i should start spamming emplacements from the frontline to my base".

Given the fact that RE doc never runs out of resources (excepting MP) then I believe that having many Sappers for no MP cost would definitely make it easier for them to spam more emplacements. RE doc ALWAYS have plenty of fuel and ammo... If not 350 fuel and 600 ammo during the whole game! No exaggeration.

Please tell me, how many times any of you guys SERIOUSLY used sappers in direct combat after the first 2 minutes of game?
I was really laughing when you said that even sappers could be a problem. Maybe it should just produce more medics so they'll send back to britain more wounded soldiers and make more families happy. How does this sound to you?

Having some Sapper squads would be still better than nothing, don't u think?
PE inf are also quite expensive.. and medic stations provide nothing at all.

Shall i remind you brits already have the most expansive, by very far, basic infantry in the game (they cost almost as much as storms, even more when made from HT and they don't get any passive/active buff from tech tree)? If triage centers are a problem just focus on destroying them or on killing medics as CW player started using boys to kill inf. Zombie tommies willl magically stop hunting you in your nightmares.

Only the Rifle Section squad is more expensive, since that perhaps they are the strongest inf unit in the game.. and the Commando LeeEnfield is even better. They CAN literally shred Luft inf, who are more expensive btw... And even the Storms can't do shit against them without weapon upgrades!
Often you can see Vet.4 Rifle Section squads with over 50 inf kills, or am I wrong about this? There is noway to deny this fact.

Nonetheless, after all... I was kinda unsure when I said that Sappers should be provided by the medic station. But I think having 3 or 4 Rifle Section squads after about 30 minutes of the game, is absolutely overwhelming.

[sgtToni95]

I think Sappers can beat freshly deployed Volks, yes. But it's true they can't be upgraded with any weapons though.. however, they can still grab something from the ground... Which actually happens quite often.

They CAN, but how many times did you see this happen? Do you really think most of the times, freshly made sappers will beat freshly made volks?
You serious? Wasn't it bad managing of volks maybe when you see it happening?

Please tell me, how many times any of you guys SERIOUSLY used sappers in direct combat after the first 2 minutes of game?
I was really laughing when you said that even sappers could be a problem. Maybe it should just produce more medics so they'll send back to britain more wounded soldiers and make more families happy. How does this sound to you?

Having some Sapper squads would be still better than nothing, don't u think?
PE inf are also quite expensive.. and medic stations provide nothing at all.

You still did not say me how many times you used sappers in direct combat after the first 2 minutes.
And you said easy emp spam is for RE doc, which is based on that as well, but other doctrines usually focus on other things.
Moreover if emps would really increase in number in every game, do you think this would be good for BK pvp games?
PE inf is still cheaper, they can upgrade weapons, and they have that building providing them any sort of passive buff, including vetting up faster, faster cap rate, and 7 members squads.

Shall i remind you brits already have the most expansive, by very far, basic infantry in the game (they cost almost as much as storms, even more when made from HT and they don't get any passive/active buff from tech tree)? If triage centers are a problem just focus on destroying them or on killing medics as CW player started using boys to kill inf. Zombie tommies willl magically stop hunting you in your nightmares.

Only the Rifle Section squad is more expensive, since that perhaps they are the strongest inf unit in the game.. and the Commando LeeEnfield is even better. They CAN literally shred Luft inf, who are more expensive btw... And even the Storms can't do shit against them without weapon upgrades!
Often you can see Vet.4 Rifle Section squads with over 50 inf kills, or am I wrong about this? There is noway to deny this fact.

3-4 tommies squads are not so common to see, unless only 1 brit player has built a triage center and all fights are happening around it. Lee enfield commandos are better, but i don't see why you brought them out since they're not provided by triage center.
What if i say luft inf can shred inf quite nicely since they have the best weapons by default, not to mention passive cover for gebirs by default, and i see them vet 4 many times? And same for Assault Grens? You can't deny this fact.
And i bet even with 4 tommies squads, not more than 2 are vet 3 or higher at the same time on the field, since reaching that level means they've been managed quite well and not because they're just sent like rambos on the field.

Moreover to keep up with any kind of enemy inf decently they need a LT and probably a captain, which require some intense manouvering, while all other normal and elite inf you mentioned gets passive buffs from tech tree or buildings, to which you might add officer bonuses.
I hope you realize that when you say they're the best inf unit in the game it's completely absurd.

Can you please tell me what precisely makes them "the best inf in game" so they "shred" every axis elite infantry?

Maybe since, apart from RAF, it's practically the only inf unit brits can count on in combat, it's just the one used better, while when you play axis you just rely so much on your infantry power that you just use it recklessly.

[Lionelus]

Only the Rifle Section squad is more expensive, since that perhaps they are the strongest inf unit in the game.. and the Commando LeeEnfield is even better. They CAN literally shred Luft inf, who are more expensive btw... And even the Storms can't do shit against them without weapon upgrades!

Any infantry could shred any other infantry. Engineers could wipe out a stormtroopers squad, even though that is very unlikely to happen. But it can still happen, if you get out manoeuvered, and especially of you're too bold and not cautious enough. That's the thrill of BK.

Thus, Tiger, this sounds a bit over exagerated. "Absurd" would be a good word too, as Toni said it.

Maybe you should have a look to numbers in Corsix, weapons and troopers stats. You'll get a measure of the absurdity of your statement.

edit : as for the caping speed of Boys, CW will have hard time seizing territory. But sounds good maybe player will get dingo / bren carrier for capping purpose.
All in all, until lieutenant and riflemen are out, CW will struggle at capping. This could end up CW playing very safely and defensively early stage, seeking to secure some ground at first, instead of rushing mid map, as it's the case most of the time nowadays.
Sounds fair to me.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

I think Sappers can beat freshly deployed Volks, yes. But it's true they can't be upgraded with any weapons though.. however, they can still grab something from the ground... Which actually happens quite often.

They CAN, but how many times did you see this happen? Do you really think most of the times, freshly made sappers will beat freshly made volks?
You serious? Wasn't it bad managing of volks maybe when you see it happening?

Please tell me, how many times any of you guys SERIOUSLY used sappers in direct combat after the first 2 minutes of game?
I was really laughing when you said that even sappers could be a problem. Maybe it should just produce more medics so they'll send back to britain more wounded soldiers and make more families happy. How does this sound to you?

Having some Sapper squads would be still better than nothing, don't u think?
PE inf are also quite expensive.. and medic stations provide nothing at all.

You still did not say me how many times you used sappers in direct combat after the first 2 minutes.
And you said easy emp spam is for RE doc, which is based on that as well, but other doctrines usually focus on other things.
Moreover if emps would really increase in number in every game, do you think this would be good for BK pvp games?
PE inf is still cheaper, they can upgrade weapons, and they have that building providing them any sort of passive buff, including vetting up faster, faster cap rate, and 7 members squads.

Shall i remind you brits already have the most expansive, by very far, basic infantry in the game (they cost almost as much as storms, even more when made from HT and they don't get any passive/active buff from tech tree)? If triage centers are a problem just focus on destroying them or on killing medics as CW player started using boys to kill inf. Zombie tommies willl magically stop hunting you in your nightmares.

Only the Rifle Section squad is more expensive, since that perhaps they are the strongest inf unit in the game.. and the Commando LeeEnfield is even better. They CAN literally shred Luft inf, who are more expensive btw... And even the Storms can't do shit against them without weapon upgrades!
Often you can see Vet.4 Rifle Section squads with over 50 inf kills, or am I wrong about this? There is noway to deny this fact.

3-4 tommies squads are not so common to see, unless only 1 brit player has built a triage center and all fights are happening around it. Lee enfield commandos are better, but i don't see why you brought them out since they're not provided by triage center.
What if i say luft inf can shred inf quite nicely since they have the best weapons by default, not to mention passive cover for gebirs by default, and i see them vet 4 many times? And same for Assault Grens? You can't deny this fact.
And i bet even with 4 tommies squads, not more than 2 are vet 3 or higher at the same time on the field, since reaching that level means they've been managed quite well and not because they're just sent like rambos on the field.

Moreover to keep up with any kind of enemy inf decently they need a LT and probably a captain, which require some intense manouvering, while all other normal and elite inf you mentioned gets passive buffs from tech tree or buildings, to which you might add officer bonuses.
I hope you realize that when you say they're the best inf unit in the game it's completely absurd.

Can you please tell me what precisely makes them "the best inf in game" so they "shred" every axis elite infantry?

Maybe since, apart from RAF, it's practically the only inf unit brits can count on in combat, it's just the one used better, while when you play axis you just rely so much on your infantry power that you just use it recklessly.

Tbh i'll See quite often fresh made sapper's beat fresh made volks..but you all forgot sapper's/boy's section pretty much shred pg's like they would be pionieers lol, i played yesterday brits quite often. I even saw 2 man boy's in green cover with leutenant shred 4-3 pg soldier's while only one enfield was shooting them.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

I think Sappers can beat freshly deployed Volks, yes. But it's true they can't be upgraded with any weapons though.. however, they can still grab something from the ground... Which actually happens quite often.

They CAN, but how many times did you see this happen? Do you really think most of the times, freshly made sappers will beat freshly made volks?
You serious? Wasn't it bad managing of volks maybe when you see it happening?

Having some Sapper squads would be still better than nothing, don't u think?
PE inf are also quite expensive.. and medic stations provide nothing at all.

You still did not say me how many times you used sappers in direct combat after the first 2 minutes.
And you said easy emp spam is for RE doc, which is based on that as well, but other doctrines usually focus on other things.
Moreover if emps would really increase in number in every game, do you think this would be good for BK pvp games?
PE inf is still cheaper, they can upgrade weapons, and they have that building providing them any sort of passive buff, including vetting up faster, faster cap rate, and 7 members squads.

Only the Rifle Section squad is more expensive, since that perhaps they are the strongest inf unit in the game.. and the Commando LeeEnfield is even better. They CAN literally shred Luft inf, who are more expensive btw... And even the Storms can't do shit against them without weapon upgrades!
Often you can see Vet.4 Rifle Section squads with over 50 inf kills, or am I wrong about this? There is noway to deny this fact.

3-4 tommies squads are not so common to see, unless only 1 brit player has built a triage center and all fights are happening around it. Lee enfield commandos are better, but i don't see why you brought them out since they're not provided by triage center.
What if i say luft inf can shred inf quite nicely since they have the best weapons by default, not to mention passive cover for gebirs by default, and i see them vet 4 many times? And same for Assault Grens? You can't deny this fact.
And i bet even with 4 tommies squads, not more than 2 are vet 3 or higher at the same time on the field, since reaching that level means they've been managed quite well and not because they're just sent like rambos on the field.

Moreover to keep up with any kind of enemy inf decently they need a LT and probably a captain, which require some intense manouvering, while all other normal and elite inf you mentioned gets passive buffs from tech tree or buildings, to which you might add officer bonuses.
I hope you realize that when you say they're the best inf unit in the game it's completely absurd.

Can you please tell me what precisely makes them "the best inf in game" so they "shred" every axis elite infantry?

Maybe since, apart from RAF, it's practically the only inf unit brits can count on in combat, it's just the one used better, while when you play axis you just rely so much on your infantry power that you just use it recklessly.

Tbh i'll See quite often fresh made sapper's beat fresh made volks..but you all forgot sapper's/boy's/section pretty much shred pg's like they would be pionieers lol, i played yesterday brits quite often. I even saw 2 man boy's in green cover with leutenant shred 4-3 pg soldier's while only one enfield was shooting them.

[sgtToni95]

You're saying "i saw this", but you're not saying "it happens every time". I saw many weird things to be honest, but the vast majority of them had some logic explanation the the remaining part was very likely to be logic combined to RNG. Not sure how likely it is for a lee-enfield to one-hit-kill a pzgren, but i guess that lee enfield boys with LT must have hit all of its shots while pzgrens were closing distance.

If you'll provide replays of boys always/most of times shredding inf i guess i will have to agree with you.

I just find it weird that boys did not get any weapons buff recently, they have just been made available earlier, which has nothing to do with them being so deadly against inf. When they got stationary position i can't remember anyone really complaining about them.

[Panzerblitz1]

Humans been aren't reliable, especially if they play COH and often biased by their wins/losses, if something weird, non logic, not fair is happening from time to time during a play, its unfortunate, but shit happens, especially with the COH engine, and thats why its often extremely hard to have a clear view of whats real, whats not, when people say << Argh the Boys squad snipes all Axis infantry, please fix that>>, im still searching and testing that problem, and nothing similar happend to me yet...

Regarding the balance in general, its simply impossible to balance the game depending of players gameplays, BK is like a safe with millions of codes, and codes are increasing with the others players gameplay style, Bk at the moment is balanced if you are smarter than your opponent you'll win, if your opponent is smarter, you'll get rekt, we as devs we will improve the "general fairness of units", but we will never replace gaming experience, gaming logic, gaming strategy or engine "lucky/non lucky moments".

[drivebyhobo]

it in such high numbers, is rather insane.
1 US doc, already has as much specialized inf as ALL other Axis doctrines!!!

Having to overwhelm with quantity is a massive disadvantage in CoH. But as always Axis main players write this off as a non concern.

First off, the micromanagement overhead which when taken to the extreme situation of managing 6-7 specialized inf simultaneously as you just mentioned becomes untenable. Even the best player will suffer losses from having his attention so divided.

Mechanically CoH and Blitzkrieg both punish quantity tactics. CoH has always issued heavy debuffs to infantry blobs. It also takes much more time and micromanagement to vet up multiple squads. It's also much easier to lose all your veterancy progress when your units are squishier.

Economically the upkeep of so many squads becomes a drag in most cases. If you're being greatly outnumbered by British infantry, then he must be an undeniably better player for being so adept at preserving his units. Even triaged British riflemen will stay incur the upkeep fee.

The only time when spamming is rewarded in Blitzkrieg is for spamming 101st Airborne simply so that you can evade the long cooldown timer on flame grenades.

[Krieger Blitzer]

in late game, upkeep costs are almost neglected... But I agree that micromanaging several squads at the same time might not be an easy task.. however, if you separate them into numbered groups and properly command ur troops; then they could be so devastating.

P.S
I wouldn't consider myself one of the "Axis main players" btw.

[Beren]

I want to say something intresting, when Company of hero was lunched the axis was more stronger than allies after that each patch improve and made balance in all doctrines, but recently the axis are disballance in the earlier game, allies have more versatile units. Its happing to me something funny i belived i played better with axis but since few weeks ago i won more with allies, even when i play with PE against Brit is so difficult to me win, but against US i belive axis is ballance. Conclusión british satarted in the original game so weak but now are stronger specially against PE.

[idliketoplaybetter]

What u all call "difficult start against CW" is just not what u'r used to.

Before ATboys change, it was 1strat- scout car push with eventual death for CW player of most key units(unless its played on bigger maps, when u are able to least capture something with Leut before its killed in cap process).
Now for instance, u have few choices instead of 1 abusive strat.And btw, it works for both sides.

PE now has cheaper mp44 sturmpio, which is probably one of the best units in early game, and CW, on the other hand, is able to sacrifice its anti-inf firepower for safety against car push.

I dont know what kind of imbalance u'r all talking about.Its now more tricky, yes, but not as bad, as it used to be.


*and i guess decreasing capping speed for Atboys will make all things right.
**and before i left, here on this topic, or else where, u discussed fact, that PE is now slower in capping than for example US.I tell u what my observation on this is.

Most of people never use kettens.AT ALL.Not a single ketten for game.
So basically, the most important factional unit is not being in use.And now u have to talk about "how unfair it has become for PE"..rrrright

[Warhawks97]

Interesting topics. Read it almost entirely. Good posts from illa, kwok and others.

But it somehow got funny when it ended up with triage center discussion etc.



Sukin was in particular right when he stated that axis are never really attacking but rather "pushing their defense forward" or only more experienced players risking attacks. Thats something that bothered me most in BK. Axis dont attack coz every unit has sky high build cost (which in return had been justified due to their strenght). Meanwhile allied complained about axis defense pushing and lack of arty to deal with such defenses.
The only real attacking combo (i mean aggessive attacks multiple times) was cheap volks with cheap tank IV (H/J and ostwind from BK doc). Saying this i would also say that Tank IV J cant get cheaper unless you want them at vehicle price (which it almost is). If anything allowed aggressive playing from axis in mid to late game then it was this cheap Tank IV/J.
So... An interesting point here.


About WH Grens:
They have HP like commandos, weapon stats stats of Enfield commandos (same or even better accuracy, high damage per bullet), they cap fast and have good abilties and upgrades available. I think that was a reason why in old BK times this unit had "only" schreck and lmg.
So cost are actually very good for the performence and abilties and roles they can fill. Upkeep, reinforce time etc.... nice unit.
But so far i wouldnt consider it as a "basic" unit at all. Rather average elite unit with "basic name" that leads to some confusion.
It could become a upper basic unit when stats would be somewhere between volks and Enfield commandos.


About CW enfields:
I couldnt belive the "issue" that was found here. They are as "healthy" as US rifles. Thats means absolutely unsuited for aggressive offense unless there is vet 5 lt and vet 5 for the unit itself charging on freshly build volks. But to make this happen the axis would have had to waste many of his units is brain dead assaults.

Its stats are worse than that of WH grens. Any range combat would go to Grens due to health, accuracy and bullet dmg. They are at best a propper defense unit against average axis attack. But even a sabotage squad can whipe them when catching them on a wrong food (like when they are on the move and ambushed from a middle distance).
So saying they wreck everything... paras and storms..... duhh... only when all factors are in their favour (perfect green cover with more vet and other bonuses vs advancing (moving) hostile standard inf without major buffs.




About the main issue:
When CW assumes that PE will spam cars.... and you know that as PE.... why not kampfgruppe company and overwhelm CW with inf? You can build two squads at once. Ikd how costly PE inf is atm but i heared its cheaper? What about Pgrens/Pgrens and assault pios? I mean its a thought...
I think it simply depends on the players opening choice now. Go for inf as PE and CW maybe has just anti inf or vise versa.

[Warhawks97]

Yes, i do make a new post to have this topic marked as unread for others. Due to latest experience:

1. They received the earliest AT in game - also most mobile and unflankable one. That makes any vehicles useless. The clou of using armored units in (early) game is to flank thanks to speed and to use the advantage of armour. The Boys make use of both ways impossible, unlike classic paks. Yet they come the earliest. Shouldn't it be opposite?3.

Basically agreed. It neglects most usage of vehicle for axis. At least in an offensive manner. So you rush more or less straight for tanks.


The issue is, that the Boys shall prevent CW from being instant rushed from the field. But in past games its usually that CW player run to the next cover with bunch of sapper, lieutnant and Boys (sometimes also enfield squad). While boys get almost instant invisible they also quickly clear the area from any vehicle use from axis side. And that with very good accuracy. Sooner or later recce comes from their side and put behind their inf.

So the offensive potential of Boys became a bit too high for that stage of the game, even till the end of mid stages.

Delaying mortars is a huge nerf to PE. As long as WH can get a mortar reasonably fast, Pe needs 110 fuel (that is insane) to field their only mortar. This makes it appear in Middle game. It's the most delayed mortar of all. Until this delay, the main way of PE to deal with camping brits was a mortar. How can PE player kill rifle section/sappers behind green cover, supported by 2 hidden/openly firing boys, and all this buffed with LT?

yes, but thats how i felt when playing US and not inf doc in older versions. Grens, scout car, at gun combo. You had the upper hand in ranged combat and scout car or schwimm prevented any closing in maneuver. The 60 mm comes late coz a AT gun and rifles and jeep was a must get. And the early PE mortar simply killed you by then.

So here the change is not bad i would say. You will take longer to get through the enemies line directly. But you can swarm arround and controle map (vs US atm)

I am not writing that in a heat of recently played game. I have been wondering about this for a quite a long time. I played many many game to see how things work out, both as Axis and Brits. And I couldn't help myself to notice that there is seriously no point in building cars - thing that PE is famous of - when you play vs brits. There is no way to use the effectively in open maps, and even maps with obstacles require a lot of micro not to simply die, not to mention harming enemy.

yes. And in a recent talk with tiger and frost in discord we discussed it.


The way how i would try to solve it (and how i did for my private version)


I lowerd the damage against vehicles. Taking like 5 shots to kill one (dont have to be like that in BK)
In exchange they start shooting faster the closer the enemie comes. Its basically a bolt rifle, so why not. That means they can harm vehicles, force them to retreat without almost instant killing them. But any rush attempt would die because of the rof and accuracy at closer distances.

I reduced cost a bit, increased unit limit and idk what else. That way you can group them up for maximum anti vehicle power. But at the same time, when enemie gets simply inf and snipers, you will have some trouble.

Lower damage with increasing rof the closer the enemie vehicle gets seems for me the most valid solution. No instant kills at max range and complete denial, but also no rush victories.


I can remember that boys once even worked in such a way. High rof vs lower damage. Accuracy wasnt so deadly at range but deadly at clsoe range.


So damage and the rof/accuracy changes from max-short range are the best options here.

[sgtToni95]

I've tried playing axis quite a few times now, mainly to see how hard it was to play against brits in early game, and I honestly found it pretty unfair.

All brits can build as first 3-4 units is inf-inf-inf-inf (talking about sappers, boys, lt and tommies), while their vehicles are quite delayed.

Now, knowing what brits could make, i only made mg+volks as WH, mg + sturmpios as PE, which were most of the times (unless i made mistakes) more than enough to deal with all brits have in the earliest phases of the game. Then what's the only thing a CW player can do? He will surely build a Dingo/Bren to try to counter such a huge anti-infantry army on your side, and you know what?? You can make a 37mm AT gun right after your 2nd infantry unit, place it wisely to defend your stuff, and you'll simply make any CW early move useless unless you're playing a huge map, or you made some mistakes. I used this most of the times and It worked so, so, so good.

To use the "rock-paper-scissors" metaphor, even with earlier AT boys, brits will play it without 1 option, so let's say no "rock" since you have no early vehicles, and your opponent will know that you'll only play paper or scissors in the first two moves, and then exactly when you'll start using "rock" and so play "paper" (most of the times you'll be forced to do so). When boys used to come later, the situation was "I know my opponent can't use "rock" nor "scissors" in the first two moves, mmmmmh what should i do??" Such a hard choice.

An example was this game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mOKbV3q54 (I know we lost, but that was really the best example of how brits are quite doomed at the start of the game) which sadly didn't show mi side on early game, but i did exactly as i stated, and all CW player was able to do was deploy his HQ truck and try to ram my mg since his early game had been fucked up by simple logical building choices from my side.

I didn't want to bring this up since it seems lot of people have been too blind to realize it, but so much crying on both forum and in-game chat has truly become so annoying and i hope considering a logical new meta would work as a kids' pacifier for them.