General discussion on the recent balance

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JimQwilleran
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General discussion on the recent balance

Postby JimQwilleran » 20 Jun 2017, 01:34

-------------------------------------------------------------------------Introduction------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We often create topics that point out very specific matters or suggestions, like particular prices, abilities or values. Today I would like to speak about something more general. My point is to ask you, community, if you have the same feeling as me. I would like to invite you to more open discussion, so we won't actually get off-topic, as we always do anyway.

My general feeling is that game as a whole is more or less balanced. What a surprise.... BUT, this is not an even balance. Oxymoron? Let me explain.

In my opinion there are 4 stages of the bk game:

- Starting off: Contains sappers rush + shwimm/jeep + small pak - everything that comes in basic tier - so it's easy to see it takes only around a few minutes or so of the whole game.
- Early game: Everything that comes with first tier: volks ; rifles ; assault pios ; scout car ; dingo
- Middle game: With first "more" armored vehicles like: Puma ; Recce ; US halftracks and more elite inf like early paratroopers etc (and recently mortars.)
- Late game: Everything coming since first shermans, panzer IV - in other words, things that need a big gun to get killed.

The balance comes from all stages being combined. But is every staged balanced itself? For a quite some time I am getting a feeling that the starting off and early game are not balanced. Yes, I am openly saying that Brits are too strong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------The Main Issue----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Delaying mortars & making boys come earlier made a huge impact on this part of the game. It buffed brits in 3 ways:

1. They received the earliest AT in game - also most mobile and unflankable one. That makes any vehicles useless. The clou of using armored units in (early) game is to flank thanks to speed and to use the advantage of armour. The Boys make use of both ways impossible, unlike classic paks. Yet they come the earliest. Shouldn't it be opposite?

2. Two Boys rifles squads can work like 2/3 of rifle section. That gives you camouflagable rifle section that can work as a short range spotter. When boys were still delayed by LT, they didn't act this way. Now I am openly saying that this is op, and I myself used double boys to kill volks/panzergrens without problems. You just let them close to you or pass you, and then attack them from surprise. Or you can stay silent and watch everything that enemy does and prepare a counter. Well done boys-spotter.

3. Delaying mortars is a huge nerf to PE. As long as WH can get a mortar reasonably fast, Pe needs 110 fuel (that is insane) to field their only mortar. This makes it appear in Middle game. It's the most delayed mortar of all. Until this delay, the main way of PE to deal with camping brits was a mortar. How can PE player kill rifle section/sappers behind green cover, supported by 2 hidden/openly firing boys, and all this buffed with LT? Also with more lee-enfields or dingo/bren coming any second.. Please answer me this in your comments. (Stormpioneers die even better to lee-enfield fire than panzergrens ;) )

TL:DR - Boys are the earliest, most mobile, most versatile, unflankable unit that can act as AT, substitute of rifle section and a spotter and also can cap sectors. I can see an issue with this.
Also look at this comparison: US: 15/30 fuel... CW: 45 fuel... WH: 30 fuel... PE - 110... to get a mortar... I can see a balance issue with this too.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Conclusion-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not writing that in a heat of recently played game. I have been wondering about this for a quite a long time. I played many many game to see how things work out, both as Axis and Brits. And I couldn't help myself to notice that there is seriously no point in building cars - thing that PE is famous of - when you play vs brits. There is no way to use the effectively in open maps, and even maps with obstacles require a lot of micro not to simply die, not to mention harming enemy. I noticed how full health volks lose 3 members of the squad while just closing to boys. I have myself laid traps with boys, who got even 3vet from just killing inf.

At this point there comes the paradox: boys are so good at being an AT unit that enemy doesn't build any early armor -> boys become mainly a anti-inf unit. And that is not intended I suppose.

So even if all stages combined are balanced - late game axis seems more powerful than brits to me - if there is a problem in the early game, there will never be the late game. Currently it's either brits are too cost-effective or axis (pe specifically) is too cost-ineffective.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Solution?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not proposing any specific solution on purpose. If I did so, the discussion would focus on this particular idea, not the holistic point of view. I am really looking forward to devs saying what do they think about this.
Cheers.

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Tiger1996
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Jun 2017, 02:30

That's such a very objective list of facts. I admire it!

Even myself, who don't have THAT much experience with Brits, but i can still compete so well against any kind of Axis opponents, and sometimes I could even win with ease... While I can hardly compete against any average Brit player when I am Axis.
I find Brits a little bit over the top to be honest; and I also found out about this not recently.. but since a while. However, I wasn't willing to ever speak about it, just so some people wouldn't call me biased or that I started judging on the game balance again.

And I would like to add...
For a long time, PE was known to be the faction which is capable of capturing territories quite fast.. but actually, no more.
This has changed dramatically. in fact, now the Brits can capture much faster!
Because since the AT Boys came to be available earlier, now they could be also used for capturing some points meanwhile right at the start of the game.. unlike Paks on the other hand who can't capture any points for sure.
And whenever AT Boys accidentally meet a Ketten who is capturing points too.. the Ketten is most likely dead. It can't defend itself, as the AT Boys would just shoot it!


Even the US can capture faster than PE atm, or at least as fast.. cuz Riflemen squads have the highest capture rate of all inf units in the game... And apparently the same with all the AB units too!
I believe this is one of the very crucial factors that puts huge pressure on Axis players at the start of the game, they start much slower than CW or US due to such a very slow capturing speed compared to Allies in return.

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 20 Jun 2017, 03:16

I would like to add something about Grenadiers since we are on the discussion of General Balance:

Grenadiers are in a really bad spot for when you get them. You get them as soon as the Krieg Barracks finishes. But at that time you really need a 50mm pak, a Puma, or more Volks with LMG34s when you get there. I also tested in-game to see how long it takes to build Grenadiers and it seems like it's 80 seconds, and I've seen Grenadiers come out at the same time a recce or quad is out; if not later.

They are also pretty expensive, with their role as an anti-infantry unit being redundant when you can just spam Volks with lmg34s to do that. Meaning the only reason to get them is because they can be given an lmg, mp44s, and a single shreck. But if you needed the panzershrecks you could just get tank busters instead.

As defensive doctrine the Grenadier is rarely built(I only ever see 1 built from a def player) because you need more Volks for the med bunker to get more Volks from all the wounded guys being carried back by the medics. They get a nice grenade for going def doc, but lmg Volks are just way more cost efficient then they are; especially with the defensive doctrine cover buff.

Blitzkrieg doctrine, you can just replace Grenadiers with Storms. Since Grenadiers have a reinforce cost of 35 while Storms have a reinforce cost of 37. Storms are just overall better as they receive the Storm vet, damage reduction buff, and evasive manoeuvres after unlocking it from the command tree.

Terror is the one place where Grenadiers are buffed directly, but getting those mp44s for 3 cps when you really need the Panther that's behind 7 cps is not worth it. Afterwards, it's better to get the Walking Stuka for 5 cps and leave the Grenadiers for third or last really, depending on how many Grenadier squads you have out when you have panthers on the field.

This leads to the situation where Wehrmacht players at best have 1 Grenadier squad on the field. There might be more than 1 if there are free manpower reserves to spare; but the rest just use mass Volks with lmg34s for capping and anti-infantry purposes as it's far more efficient.

So what to do?

I think the biggest buff Grenadiers can receive is like the Wehrmacht mortar, they are immediately unlocked after escalating to skirmish phase. Rather than building the Krieg barracks, Grenadiers can be built after the Krieg techup is finished. A reduction in build time and a slight decrease in manpower cost and reinforce cost can also make Volk spam with lmg34s not the go-to strategy as the meta.

On Panzer Elite, they have a real problem with a clogged production line. The logistic upgrade being in the same building as the 28mm car and the 37mm anti-vehicle halftrack puts them in a situation to decide whether to get AT first, or upgrade to unlock higher tiers of production. The Logistik Kompanie is also the place where you have to build your scout cars for oping points and the 50mm/75mm paks for anti-tank duty. It would be best if the logistic upgrade could be moved to the HQ to free up some of the clogged production that the Panzer Elite have to work with.
Last edited by MenciusMoldbug on 20 Jun 2017, 05:23, edited 1 time in total.

kwok
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby kwok » 20 Jun 2017, 04:59

I'll probably sound a bit harsh because at my core I'm pretty against posts like these: more problem finding that solution finding. I get the reason and I don't think it's a good reason which I can get into later.

The issues:
TL:DR - Boys are the earliest, most mobile, most versatile, unflankable unit that can act as AT, substitute of rifle section and a spotter and also can cap sectors. I can see an issue with this.
Also look at this comparison: US: 15/30 fuel... CW: 45 fuel... WH: 30 fuel... PE - 110... to get a mortar... I can see a balance issue with this too.


Firstly, I'm pretty sure fuel costs for mortar halftracks for each of the factions is NOT that little compared to PE...
for example USA needs 10 (barracks) + 15 (wsc) + 20 (motor pool) + 30 (mp upgrade) + 35 (mortar ht) = 105fu
WM = 10 (first barracks i forgot the name) + 15 (t1 upgrade) + 25 (kriegs barracks) + 35 (t2 upgrade) + 35 (mt ht) = 120
PE = 10 (first barracks) + 15 (logistiks) + 15 (that little building thing) +35 (logistik upgrade) + 35 (mt ht) = 110
So I'm not sure how you did your fuel comparisons... I can take a guess why it takes longer for PE to get MTHT compared to others though, it's because they get early logistiks where they get cars early game which is inherently a good advantage, the option exists which others do not have.

The counter to ATboys as PE is pretty simple I think: pretty much any other infantry. Brits only have 1 prod building, PE gets 2. Even though there's an MP difference in unit cost, timing wise just do the new wurf opening and make a sturmpio which breaks that new meta. The time it takes for CW to get a counter (1 LT then 1 tommy/mg) you should def have an option to take on that new CW inf... else you (generic you not you specifically illa) need to learn to break your formula and adapt.

But EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY: even if there is a true balance problem a solution included is extremely important. What's the solution? Again, play a bigger fucking map guys.... The reason why AT boys are so strong is because the same reason why MG42s were so strong a long time ago back when rifles and jeeps didnt do shit, you can move a single unit into one spot and lock down the entire map. The whole purpose of vehicles is mobility and if you play a tiny map where mobility means nothing because you can have sight on everything from one point, then your vehicle and playstyle honestly deserves to get wrecked.

For a long time, PE was known to be the faction which is capable of capturing territories quite fast.. but actually, no more.
This has changed dramatically. in fact, now the Brits can capture much faster!
Because since the AT Boys came to be available earlier, now they could be also used for capturing some points meanwhile right at the start of the game.. unlike Paks on the other hand who can't capture any points for sure.
And whenever AT Boys accidentally meet a Ketten who is capturing points too.. the Ketten is most likely dead. It can't defend itself, as the AT Boys would just shoot it!


What?? PE is one of the most capture-friendly factions. It has 3 options of units that can capture of varying quality while other factions only have infantry. The sct car, basic inf, kettin, soooooo many. The reason why it was so powerful before was because AT boys came late and all other AT options are so immobile that you could capture risk free. God forbid an opening has any sort of weakness or tradeoff now... The solution to make panzer-elite which are modeled after panzergrenadiers which means motorized infantry act more like motorized infantry is to play a bigger map. Otherwise no duh motorized units are countered by AT... it's literally what AT is designed for. I'd like to see a brit early game keep up in mobility and capture rate on a big map against PE... If anything that would enrage a brit player more.

Mencius proposed a solution so I'll let that argument develop first and give myself time to think about the impacts before I disagree lol. I think it might be worth thinking about what if grenadiers came a bit earlier... Does it give WM more options without breaking balance? I would be all for that.


Why I think these posts are bad?
Because it's easy to find problems and not answers and this community is filled enough with problem seekers with elitists turning to lobbying and focusing only on metas instead of learning to adapt. Offering problems gives no insight to the devs on how to fix it, which they openly admit to looking towards players to find answers which I think is responsible of them. It doesn't always take a doctor to diagnose a illness, but it definitely requires a doctor to cure it. I'd rather analyze a poor solution than read another "objective and holistic" complaint.

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Devilfish
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Devilfish » 20 Jun 2017, 09:51

So to clarify right from the beginning, I don't find boys OP and never had any real issue playing against them.
To your specific points;
Even though they are very mobile and cannot be flanked, they've got 2 weaknesses. They accuracy is a gamble, you can hit every single shot in game same as you can miss all of them. Secondly, they are fragile as newborn babies. Unless they are in green cover, they die very fast, if they have no cover, they die like flies.
I fail to see how them being a "mini spotter" is OP, when all other faction can get a spotting unit with binoculars right from the start. Yes they can shoot, but they cost 250MP vs 160MP for spotters (+ spotters have binocs and hidden unit detection).
I have personally never had a problem, hopelessly losing volks/pzgrens to boys. But honestly, if you lay an ambush worth of 500MP and someone just walk right into it with 265MP volks and gets killed, well....deserved? Though I'm sure that if you are quick with retreat button, you have a good chance of making it still.
Now how to counter "this" with PE? Depends heavily on the map really. Even scout car tactics can work depending on terrain, thanks to its excellent agility and super-quick-slaughtering mg42. You can put it into position out of LoS of boys, killing camped sappers really quickly. If boys start to move, they are super vulnerable to pzgrens crossfire + scout can take a hit always and without cover kill they before they reload. Or you can just pass their position and destroy the "more lee-enfields incoming". You can use obstacles to close distance with sturmpios. You can go for 3x pzgrens. You can use grenades.
Now of course, if you play on open narrow map that is too small for flanking and then camp it out with double boys, sappers, section in green covers, then sure. But really, if axis do the same with mg,at gun, mortar/sniper. What can you do against such a douche play.

Considering mortars. At the first glance, it's a great hit to PE meta, sure. But on the other hand, now WH super-early mortar can be quite dominant. It can outrange everything except US inf twin brother, but people usually don't rush docs this early, not even speaking about inf doc itself, while WH has it for all. So if you do at least a little teamplay with your mate, one mortar can completely eradicate british green cover unbreakable paradise.

How exactly is PE not king of capping anymore? Double ketten for 320MP and entire friendly half of them map is capped in a snap of the fingers and I also got myself 2 spotters.


@Grenadiers
What I understand from post is that Grenadiers are not worth it because Volks and Storms are more cost effective. How exactly is them being available after skirmish upgrade solves this issue?
@LogisticUpgrade
So PE has clogged production while upgrading logistics. Same has US in Motor Pool. Same as British trucks while building new trucks and officers (as tech up). WH is the only exception.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 20 Jun 2017, 10:04

I agree with everything Illa mentioned in the first post, these are a few reasons why I quit BK, early game became extremely stalled due to all axis nerfs and allied buffs. Especially PE got hurt a lot, their opening is super weak, all vehicles are useless due to AT boys, infantry is not cost-efective in compare to other armies (no quick access to volks or rifles for caping\holding the line\flanking).

The biggest issue in my opinion is that axis have lost their agility and flexibility, it always felt to me like axis never ever atack, they just push further with the defence (pak 38, mg42, mortar camping, later luft inf and parking Panthers in the middle of the map), that happens due to very high risk which you take when you advance with all this expensive units, so axis gameplay seems to be "gamble rush" or "anal defence".

While allied style can be super agressive having nice back up at the same time. Moreover Brits and US have crazy good synergy at the early stage of the game, CW player quickly occupy key point with sappers + boys + Leutnant ( min later bringing vickers\inf section basically locking down the area till axis will get there mortars ) while US player can be agressive rusher with Jeep + 2 rifles squad + sniper, this combo is almost impossible to counter if it get performed correctly.

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby sgtToni95 » 20 Jun 2017, 10:17

About Boys being so "balance breaking" in early game i agree with kwok and dun, they're very good when your opponent uses cars, but if PE starts with Grens+sturmpios+mg brit is quite in trouble due to the fact he is facing very good anti inf units and weapons which you can counter only with lee enfields (and sniper shot to spend all your initial ammo to MAYBE kill mg gunner).

I've tried starting as brits with a vickers many times, but you can just set up mg42 under its fire, and vickers will have to retreat very soon, not to mention how good green cover mg 42 can be against infantry inside buildings.

If then CW gets bren, PE can probably have a pak already.

this is why i think it's still a matter of right chices and good micro/strategy over a problem with unit balance.

I guess mortar halftrack has been delayed because it was literally overused. How many times did we see PE player just sitting behind his mortar halftracks destroying all inf, emplacements and covers without having to use anything else? People boasting of their insane skills with mortar halftracks? I wouldn't really like that.

I think bringing them down 1 tier again would just lead PE back to the old meta which killed any kind of fun and strategy (from opponent's side at least).

About WH Grenadiers i'm not very used to playing it, but i can say I get this feeling they have an insanely long production time every time i used them.
I always thought that is because WH officer can speed up production of any building, tho i rarelly see this ability being used.
About price and tiering up unlock i can't really say anything since i'm not so experienced with wehr, but i get 3 of them every time i play terror and they never disappoint me.

EDIT:
@Sukin : i think even pzgrens + sturmpios + swimm +pak + volks can be unstoppable if well managed, this conversation is going nowhere i think. The units you mentioned on allies side have always been there, and same for those on axis. Boys anti infantry capabilities have not been buffed recently, and they now come earlier because otherwise brits could have been forced to retreat their sappers with just swimm and pios while they were still producing Lt (i'm exagerating here but boys really came little late making the "no building" advantage just an auto trap by rushing too forward=middle).

Btw i think this is just becoming another "early game hypothetical written game", so this is my last post here.

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Tiger1996
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Jun 2017, 11:55

kwok wrote:What?? PE is one of the most capture-friendly factions. It has 3 options of units that can capture of varying quality while other factions only have infantry. The sct car, basic inf, kettin, soooooo many. The reason why it was so powerful before was because AT boys came late and all other AT options are so immobile that you could capture risk free. God forbid an opening has any sort of weakness or tradeoff now... The solution to make panzer-elite which are modeled after panzergrenadiers which means motorized infantry act more like motorized infantry is to play a bigger map. Otherwise no duh motorized units are countered by AT... it's literally what AT is designed for. I'd like to see a brit early game keep up in mobility and capture rate on a big map against PE... If anything that would enrage a brit player more.

All CW inf can capture faster than PE inf, only until you upgrade "fast capturing" as they would finally become equally fast. Sappers also capture faster than WH Pioneers.. if not faster than Volks!
At the start of the game, you have Sapper squad, one Lt, Rifle Section and 2 AT boys. All these are fast capturing units... But as PE on the other hand, what would u get? 2 Kettens? Or well.. perhaps a Scout Car? Once you accidentally meet AT Boys, you would immediately have to run away. And the AT Boys now are always available earlier than any Scout Cars!

Not to mention that US Riflemen squads, including all AB units.. can capture points insanely fast. And don't forget that Brits have Dingo which can capture points, as well as Bren Carrier... Of which is also able to capture points too.

I guess AT Boys should be at least unable to capture points... Paks can't do that!
It's enough how they shoot 360 degrees, which is already a great advantage.. and they also gain more sight range from static mode.
AT Boys can also embark vehicles, such as Kangaroo.. they can get into trenches too and are able to go inside buildings...

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 20 Jun 2017, 16:16

Agreed brits are total bs right now.. they even can 20 mm pe car in green cover with 2 brens o.o

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 20 Jun 2017, 17:10

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:Agreed brits are total bs right now.. they even can 20 mm pe car in green cover with 2 brens o.o


Edit: i would love to write more but almost all got said, and i am in a hurry but i will do in few day or hours

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Tiger1996
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Jun 2017, 17:50

Yup, I guess I have the time to say more from my side. As I haven't played for more than a month due to being busy as u may know.. But now; I resumed playing. And each time I get to play against Brits, I honestly just feel like I want smash my keyboard.
They are just insanely OP, even in late game!

RE doc for example has all kind of options available to defend and attack aggressively, achieving both tasks at the same time.. indestructible emplacements everywhere. As well as Comets in late game, and Achilles and Firefly in mid game, not to mention Churchills and Tulip Shermans in early game. This 95mm Churchill is also pretty lethal against all type of targets.. it's just so precise, often one-shots Vet4 squads. So it works perfectly as hardcore arty unit...

Just... Take a look at this game:-
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2045

I am aware Wurf could have played more aggressively in mid game.. but he sort of out-played his opponent very well in early game, as he captured the whole map basically. But then he probably camped in mid game a little bit. Nonetheless, doubtlessly this doesn't deny the fact how the CW tanks were actually much more superior compared to Wurf tanks...
Comet and Achilles killed Tigers and Panthers with ease, FRONTALLY. I really don't think that this should ever happen. Considering the fact that Axis tanks are way more expensive...
RE doc can also generate A LOT more res after the doctrinal unlock, often having 350 fuel and 600 ammo the whole game, with only few points captured! I can't even imagine how much res RE doc would have if they secured just half of the map.. it's insane how RE doc could collect this massive amount of resources without having to capture any significant amount of territories.


Also, I think Axis lost a lot of their infantry power... Generally the Allies arsenal seem to have the upper hand in inf combat atm.
Let's just have a look at what happened;
KCH were removed, Grenadiers were given MP44s in return.. but they were nerfed lately, Zeal upgrade for example does no longer provide HP bonus, their 3 MP44 unlock was delayed by 1 CP, and their price was increased. Not to mention delaying Stuka with 5 command points, instead of just 3 command points.. three points could have been more than enough. And at the same time, giving RAF doc 95mm Cromwell without requiring any command points at all, devs shouldn't have listened to this suggestion, or at least they should have added some command points to it.
Anyways, then we saw how the StormTroops were nerfed as well, no more crawl by default.
However, now we see Infiltration Rangers gaining the ability to crawl by default!! With even better weapons at close range.
And the new Marine Commandos are also on the way! This brings me to the question... Which is;
If you were planning to add Marine Commandos and also improve infiltration Rangers like this, then I wonder why Storms were nerfed in the first place??!! If the Storms were really OP back then due to being able to crawl by default, then I could actually tell that infiltration Rangers are now becoming OP the other way around. So, you just moved the "OPNESS" from Axis side to the Allies side on the other hand, instead of keeping it balanced!

And it's just insane in late game how Brits could have endless number of Rifle Section squads, thanks to medic stations. It's simply overwhelming... Because the Rifle Section squad is in fact one of the best infantry units in the game.. and having it in such high numbers, is rather insane. They could even shred Luft inf into pieces!

>>> Let's have a look at the remaining elite/specialized Axis inf in the game who can be used in large scale battles...
3 Storms, 2 Gebirgs, and 2 Reg5, anything I missed???
Def doc relies on Grenadiers, Terror doc same. SE doc has 1 specialized demo unit...
Oh, and the SS squad by the PE officer squad.. limited to 1 and extremely expensive tho.

Now, let's have a look at the Allies...
>>> inf doc - alone - has 2 infiltration Rangers, 2 CQB, and endless Combat Engineers...
Not to mention that ordinary Rangers get cheaper and ambush tactics later.
- AB doc has 4 101st, 2 82nd and the HQ squad... That's already 7 squads who can keep reinforcing themselves from the air, not to mention the air support they have, thanks to AB planes.
- CW has 2 Sten Commandos, new Marine Commandos, 2 LeeEnfield Commandos and finally 2 SAS.
Oh, and 2 RE Sappers...

See?? 7 AB squads... Which means that just 1 US doc, already has as much specialized inf as ALL other Axis doctrines!!!
3 Storms + 2 Gebirgs + 2 Reg5 = 7 squads.....
By adding the HQ Storm squad, then hardly you have 8 squads, and if you add the SS squad.. then hardly you could reach 9 squads. Only 4 ones are able to keep reinforcing themselves from the air tho.
Keeping in mind that Allies still have all elite inf provided by RAF doc as well as inf doc.......

So, obviously the Allies have more options and versatility, as well as much more units to spend their resources on... And they might even have better and more cost effective tanks btw, Axis hardly have any kind of versatility at all.

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby MarKr » 20 Jun 2017, 18:03

Crawl again :roll: do you remember anything I said about that topic?...just...whatever.... :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Tiger1996
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Jun 2017, 18:07

I am not pointing at Shrecks in crawl mode again.
But I was generally speaking how Storms were nerfed, while at the same time... Allies inf are getting buffed to be as good as Storms in the past! Keeping in mind Axis elite inf are already less in numbers.
So, if you are buffing Allies inf; then there is just no point how Storms were nerfed!
Tiger1996 wrote:If you were planning to add Marine Commandos and also improve infiltration Rangers like this, then I wonder why Storms were nerfed in the first place??!! If the Storms were really OP back then due to being able to crawl by default, then I could actually tell that infiltration Rangers are now becoming OP the other way around. So, you just moved the "OPNESS" from Axis side to the Allies side on the other hand, instead of keeping it balanced!

Hope u get what i mean, not talking about the Shreck here...

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 20 Jun 2017, 19:47

Tiger1996 wrote:Yup, I guess I have the time to say more from my side. As I haven't played for more than a month due to being busy as u may know.. But now; I resumed playing. And each time I get to play against Brits, I honestly just feel like I want smash my keyboard.
They are just insanely OP, even in late game!

RE doc for example has all kind of options available to defend and attack aggressively, achieving both tasks at the same time.. indestructible emplacements everywhere. As well as Comets in late game, and Achilles and Firefly in mid game, not to mention Churchills and Tulip Shermans in early game. This 95mm Churchill is also pretty lethal against all type of targets.. it's just so precise, often one-shots Vet4 squads. So it works perfectly as hardcore arty unit...

Just... Take a look at this game:-
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2045

I am aware Wurf could have played more aggressively in mid game.. but he sort of out-played his opponent very well in early game, as he captured the whole map basically. But then he probably camped in mid game a little bit. Nonetheless, doubtlessly this doesn't deny the fact how the CW tanks were actually much more superior compared to Wurf tanks...
Comet and Achilles killed Tigers and Panthers with ease, FRONTALLY. I really don't think that this should ever happen. Considering the fact that Axis tanks are way more expensive...
RE doc can also generate A LOT more res after the doctrinal unlock, often having 350 fuel and 600 ammo the whole game, with only few points captured! I can't even imagine how much res RE doc would have if they secured just half of the map.. it's insane how RE doc could collect this massive amount of resources without having to capture any significant amount of territories.


Also, I think Axis lost a lot of their infantry power... Generally the Allies arsenal seem to have the upper hand in inf combat atm.
Let's just have a look at what happened;
KCH were removed, Grenadiers were given MP44s in return.. but they were nerfed lately, Zeal upgrade for example does no longer provide HP bonus, their 3 MP44 unlock was delayed by 1 CP, and their price was increased. Not to mention delaying Stuka with 5 command points, instead of just 3 command points.. three points could have been more than enough. And at the same time, giving RAF doc 95mm Cromwell without requiring any command points at all, devs shouldn't have listened to this suggestion, or at least they should have added some command points to it.
Anyways, then we saw how the StormTroops were nerfed as well, no more crawl by default.
However, now we see Infiltration Rangers gaining the ability to crawl by default!! With even better weapons at close range.
And the new Marine Commandos are also on the way! This brings me to the question... Which is;
If you were planning to add Marine Commandos and also improve infiltration Rangers like this, then I wonder why Storms were nerfed in the first place??!! If the Storms were really OP back then due to being able to crawl by default, then I could actually tell that infiltration Rangers are now becoming OP the other way around. So, you just moved the "OPNESS" from Axis side to the Allies side on the other hand, instead of keeping it balanced!

And it's just insane in late game how Brits could have endless number of Rifle Section squads, thanks to medic stations. It's simply overwhelming... Because the Rifle Section squad is in fact one of the best infantry units in the game.. and having it in such high numbers, is rather insane. They could even shred Luft inf into pieces!

>>> Let's have a look at the remaining elite/specialized Axis inf in the game who can be used in large scale battles...
3 Storms, 2 Gebirgs, and 2 Reg5, anything I missed???
Def doc relies on Grenadiers, Terror doc same. SE doc has 1 specialized demo unit...
Oh, and the SS squad by the PE officer squad.. limited to 1 and extremely expensive tho.

Now, let's have a look at the Allies...
>>> inf doc - alone - has 2 infiltration Rangers, 2 CQB, and endless Combat Engineers...
Not to mention that ordinary Rangers get cheaper and ambush tactics later.
- AB doc has 4 101st, 2 82nd and the HQ squad... That's already 7 squads who can keep reinforcing themselves from the air, not to mention the air support they have, thanks to AB planes.
- CW has 2 Sten Commandos, new Marine Commandos, 2 LeeEnfield Commandos and finally 2 SAS.
Oh, and 2 RE Sappers...

See?? 7 AB squads... Which means that just 1 US doc, already has as much specialized inf as ALL other Axis doctrines!!!
3 Storms + 2 Gebirgs + 2 Reg5 = 7 squads.....
By adding the HQ Storm squad, then hardly you have 8 squads, and if you add the SS squad.. then hardly you could reach 9 squads. Only 4 ones are able to keep reinforcing themselves from the air tho.
Keeping in mind that Allies still have all elite inf provided by RAF doc as well as inf doc.......

So, obviously the Allies have more options and versatility, as well as much more units to spend their resources on... And they might even have better and more cost effective tanks btw, Axis hardly have any kind of versatility at all.



Agreed with everything. 5000+

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby sgtToni95 » 20 Jun 2017, 19:48

Tiger1996 wrote:
And it's just insane in late game how Brits could have endless number of Rifle Section squads, thanks to medic stations. It's simply overwhelming... Because the Rifle Section squad is in fact one of the best infantry units in the game.. and having it in such high numbers, is rather insane. They could even shred Luft inf into pieces!

>>> Let's have a look at the remaining elite/specialized Axis inf in the game who can be used in large scale battles...
3 Storms, 2 Gebirgs, and 2 Reg5, anything I missed???
Def doc relies on Grenadiers, Terror doc same. SE doc has 1 specialized demo unit...
Oh, and the SS squad by the PE officer squad.. limited to 1 and extremely expensive tho.

Now, let's have a look at the Allies...
>>> inf doc - alone - has 2 infiltration Rangers, 2 CQB, and endless Combat Engineers...
Not to mention that ordinary Rangers get cheaper and ambush tactics later.
- AB doc has 4 101st, 2 82nd and the HQ squad... That's already 7 squads who can keep reinforcing themselves from the air, not to mention the air support they have, thanks to AB planes.
- CW has 2 Sten Commandos, new Marine Commandos, 2 LeeEnfield Commandos and finally 2 SAS.
Oh, and 2 RE Sappers...

See?? 7 AB squads... Which means that just 1 US doc, already has as much specialized inf as ALL other Axis doctrines!!!
3 Storms + 2 Gebirgs + 2 Reg5 = 7 squads.....
By adding the HQ Storm squad, then hardly you have 8 squads, and if you add the SS squad.. then hardly you could reach 9 squads. Only 4 ones are able to keep reinforcing themselves from the air tho.
Keeping in mind that Allies still have all elite inf provided by RAF doc as well as inf doc.......

So, obviously the Allies have more options and versatility, as well as much more units to spend their resources on... And they might even have better and more cost effective tanks btw, Axis hardly have any kind of versatility at all.


This really sounds like trolling. It lacks something, like considering inf together with the entire doc, active and passive buffs and an insane amount of other things... this just can't be a serious comparison.

Only thing i agree with is 95mm cromwell being too much for raf, but as long as all axis and allies docs have some kind of arty/long range indirect fire, it perfectly fits in RAF too.

And i don't think freshly made tommies coming out of triage center without any weapon upgrade, vet and bonus buff are such a problem for late-game vet 2/3 luft paras. Unless you consider vetting up too fast a problem for them (i could understand it since i saw that in many movies: the random guy waking up with superpowers always needs some time to adapt).

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Jun 2017, 19:55

I know you love Brits so much, in fact.. you even said yourself that your opinion might not be objective enough due to being a little biased towards CW... So I totally understand how you disagree with most of what I said ^^

But no, I was serious with my comparison... As I included statements like "large scale battles" and "late game" as well.
in fact, I often had 7 AB squads on the field.. and they are always so dominant, even champions if i may say!

As for the fresh Rifle Section squads, I could only say a very simple response... How about a freshly deployed Volks squad?? Or a freshly deployed Riflemen squad on the other hand?? Or well... How about PE, no squads by medic stations at all.
So, for sure.. having Rifle Section from medic stations, is already a huge advantage.

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby sgtToni95 » 20 Jun 2017, 20:12

Well i guess i could say you love Tigers so much since your nickname is Tiger, so your opinion on "cats" must not be that objective lol
And i was particularly responding to your statement about shredding luft paras and being super good in late game. I didn't say they're not good, and surely they're better than non upgraded volks or than nothing. What would you make them spawn then? Brits already have the most expansive (by far) basic infantry in the game: i hope you realize that giving sappers would be too inutile, while giving AT boys (reading all stuff above) would be even more OP!

And btw I'm just replying ironically, and I will not answer any longer, not because i have nothing to reply, but because this whole post seems so pointless starting from the title, continuing with arguments already discussed many times, and dulcis in fundo popping out with the unmissable off-topics ("General discussion on recent balance" and we're talking about things that haven't been changed for a long time).
Bye ;)

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Jun 2017, 20:30

True, I love the Tiger tank so much, there is not doubt about it! :lol: But to be honest; I love the US Armor doc so much too!
So, I might not be so much objective when it comes to discussing about "cats" but I would say that this applies to the Allies as well...
That's why I don't think I am biased in terms of game balance overall, nor that I am biased to a specific faction in particular.

Also; I didn't suggest here that the CW medic stations should provide Sappers or AT Boys, even though I must say that providing Sappers doesn't sound like a bad idea.. since that Sappers are kinda hard to obtain as Brits, even harder than Rifle Section squads... While they are somewhat very useful, but not very weak either.

Lastly, It's fine if you think this whole topic since the beginning has no point.. but I guess I can still disagree... As I believe JimQwilleran has actually brought some very good points. And I am apparently not the only one here who believes so :)

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby JimQwilleran » 21 Jun 2017, 19:06

Thank you for your opinions guys. It's very interesting to learn how different are people's opinions on this matter. That was mainly the purpose of this topic that anyone could tell his mind about the early game, and boys in particular. Now I want to ask the devs a question.

Are you willing to consider any kind of boys nerf/general axis buff? At least in terms of prices?

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Jun 2017, 19:55

As for myself, I am not really looking forward to see any kind of big changes... However, probably just the following points:-

- Maybe the AT Boys should no longer be able to capture points.. because like I said, it's enough how they shoot 360 degrees and are also able to get inside buildings, trenches and vehicles such as Kangaroo.
Paks can't do any of this on the other hand!

- Another thing is Rifle Section squads, I don't think they should be available in such high numbers... But I am honestly unsure which unit exactly should be provided by the medic stations in return. Perhaps medic stations should provide Sappers then?? But, this way the CW player would have so many Sappers as a result, which is still dangerous.. it could lead to easier emplacements spam.

- RE doc "improved CW trucks" unlock.. is simply OP. Because after unlocking it, this way each CW truck would eventually gain even more resources from the territories of which they have already secured... I mean that basically each CW truck would have the "Generate More Resources" upgrade, which is limited for only 1 CW truck in other doctrines. I think it's just insane how RE doc could collect such massive amount of resources even when they don't have enough territories... This unlock is even better than any Blitz doc trades or US supply yard upgrades. Even the AB doc supply drops is nothing in comparison to this RE doc unlock!

- Grenadiers build time should be reduced... For real.

Lastly, I'm still wondering, the StormTroops were made no longer able to crawl by default when players thought it's OP back then.. but I would like to remind the devs of something;
it's actually that when those players complained about StormTroops at that time, no one knew that you would ever allow infiltration Rangers to be able to crawl by default later at some point in the future! Also no one knew that u would ever manage to add the new Marine Commandos either. So, I am really wondering... Do you think players would have still complained about StormTroops back then if the infiltration Rangers were already able to crawl by default at that time? I honestly don't think so.

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby MarKr » 21 Jun 2017, 20:14

JimQwilleran wrote:Are you willing to consider any kind of boys nerf/general axis buff? At least in terms of prices?
I still don't know if BOYS squad really shreds Axis infantry the way some people say because in the files I found nothing that would give them a chance to kill 6 Volks with 2 Enfield rifles (unless RNG rolled incredibly often misses to Volks while incredibly often hits to enfields). However, in case we really missed something, we are changing the Enfileds in this squad for those that Sappers use which have worse accuracy by about 10%.
We are also considering lowering the cap speed of BOYS squad form "1" to "0.5" (or maybe lower) so they would cap significantly slower and thus would give more time to Axis to cap sectors in case CW wants to cap only with BOYS squads. If CW wants to cap faster, they will need to bring other infantry which will cost MP etc.
(Quick explanation: Each type of resource point in game has set duration in seconds which says how long it takes to capture it. Individual squads have cap speed set in the way of multiplier. So if a point has cap time of 15 seconds and e.g. Tommies have cap speed multiplier of "1" then the cap time for Tommies is 15 seconds (15x1); however when you want to cap the same point with sappers who have cap SPEED multiplier of 0.8 (it makes the SPEED lower; so practicall the cap TIME higher by 20%) so the cap time for Sappers is 18 seconds (15x1.2)etc.)

Another consideration is to make it for Bren guns impossible to penetrate HTs and armored cars, which is now possible with about 10% chance to penetrate (shots that go through deal only 2.4-3.4 damage while HTs have about 315HP so it takes over 20 bursts from a squad with 2 Brens to destroy such vehicle so the impact would be minimal)

We are also considering lowering the build time of WM Grenadiers from current 45 seconds to somewhere around 35-ish. We don't want to drop their price because in Def doc and Terror doc they receive passive bonuses with unlocks + have good basic weapons + have the fastest cap speed of all Axis infantry (x1.5).

As for prices...PE got price drops on infantry in last patch, PE and WM got price drop on HMG teams. We're planning to drop prices of PIVJ in BK doc after Mass production unlock.

Also All axis Tank destroyers which have the Ambush in some spots but "static position" in other spots will only have Ambush and it will have same activation conditions as TDs of allies, so it should no longer be a problem to set Axis TDs into Ambush, which could be considered as indirect buff.

In BK doc the PIV "D" will be moved to Kriegs barracks because it has armor comparable to Stuart/Tetrarch tanks and when you get the Tank factory, there are such AT units in the field that the tank would survive about 3 seconds so we decided to make it available sooner. So in a sense a buff too but price stays, though.

So some changes are coming. Full change log we'll be published later.
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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Jun 2017, 21:00

Lowering the cap speed of AT Boys instead of making them completely unable to cap points at all.. is actually a smart move!
Also glad to hear that Grenadiers would have less build time... And finally the Pz.4.D could have some use.
======================================
Also All axis Tank destroyers which have the Ambush in some spots but "static position" in other spots will only have Ambush and it will have same activation conditions as TDs of allies, so it should no longer be a problem to set Axis TDs into Ambush, which could be considered as indirect buff.

This sounds great too, though I am curious how this would be exactly implemented.. hopefully no functions would be messed up.
======================================
We're planning to drop prices of PIVJ in BK doc after Mass production unlock.

But are you really dropping the price of Pz.IV.J in Blitz doc?? Currently it costs 410 MP/45 Fuel in this doc, as it's available after 3 direct Command Points. And it doesn't get affected by the mass production, since it's already mass produced.. as it doesn't become any cheaper after the mass production unlock, and I also think it shouldn't ever do. Keeping in mind the original price of this tank, is actually about 500 MP/70 fuel which is the case in TH doc...
I don't understand the reason behind lowering the price any further to be honest.
======================================
I would be glad to see infiltration Rangers unable to crawl except after the veterancy unlock, same to Marine Commandos... However; both the infiltration Rangers as well as Marine Commandos would still have passive camo by default.
Sounds more balanced and fair this way!
======================================
At the end, I hope the changelog would have something about the RE doc "improved CW trucks" unlock.

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby JimQwilleran » 21 Jun 2017, 23:07

I am very happy to hear that you took into consideration some of the ideas and opinions that were stated in this topic. Actually we have managed to reach a kind of consensus and constructional outcome without long and fruitless discussions, without getting angry, and pretty much without any off-topic. It took just a 1 forum page to reach it. I think that this was a discussion done just right.

The reason why we often get such big topics with so much useless talk and no fruits is precisely because (imho) that we come to devs saying: "we want you to change that", or "why is this thing like that". We don't leave a spot for discussion, we demand. In this topic I just asked people if they think that there is a problem with X. I provided some examples from my point of view. People agreed or not - so devs got some impression of general community's feeling. And then they had entirely free hand of agreeing or not, and finding a solution by themselves. They didn't have to waste 5 pages on explaining why they won't make a change that would be demanded in some other case. I hope that this could be a good example for some later discussions here ^^.

Also I am very satisfied with the solutions picked by the devs. I think they are just right. (edit: they are still just ideas, I was a bit too quick to assume they are gonna be implemented for sure, my bad)

PS. Sorry for moralizing..

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby kwok » 22 Jun 2017, 00:50

Haha looks like your optimistic outlook trumped my pessimism this time, Illa. Glad this convo worked out to your intent.

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Re: General discussion on the recent balance

Postby sgtToni95 » 22 Jun 2017, 08:50

About boys rifles i'd like to say that it's been reported they shred volks while closing distance: it happened to me to see them killing volks quite decently while closing distance, but in this case volks cover was missing on the way and boys (there were 2 squads) had green one. Add the fact that boys rifle unrealistically misses all shots on inf and i think you could find a way to deal with them even with inf.
Correct me if i'm wrong on this one: boys rifle anti inf capabilities has not been buffed as long as i remember, so probably in the last year.
They don't even shoot inf by default, since it seems to me they start shooting inf after the first time you give them the command, and then they'll do this every time (might be a bug they won't stop even with the "Hold fire" command toggled fucking up their passive camo). The result depends on how you use your inf: i guess many people just rush boys with inf thinking they're an AT unit and they're not supposed to kill inf, but their weapons allow them to do so and somehow they get surprised.

About triage center i'd like to say that i disagree it should produce sappers squads for brits: i know flamethrower has been buffed recently, but tell me Tiger, do you really think sappers can do anything in combat comparable to rifles or volks? Would you really get close enough to them when you see they have a flamethrower, when you can just kill them from far away? They can't be upgraded with any kind of mg, they can't throw nades and they even have lower accuracy lee enfields.
And i don't think number of emplacements depends on the number of sappers squads you have on the field, but on the resources and on the territories you have. Your logic seems like "i have 3 sappers squads, i should start spamming emplacements from the frontline to my base".
Please tell me, how many times any of you guys SERIOUSLY used sappers in direct combat after the first 2 minutes of game?
I was really laughing when you said that even sappers could be a problem. Maybe it should just produce more medics so they'll send back to britain more wounded soldiers and make more families happy. How does this sound to you?

Shall i remind you brits already have the most expansive, by very far, basic infantry in the game (they cost almost as much as storms, even more when made from HT and they don't get any passive/active buff from tech tree)? If triage centers are a problem just focus on destroying them or on killing medics as CW player started using boys to kill inf. Zombie tommies willl magically stop hunting you in your nightmares.


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