Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 27 Dec 2014, 09:54

Hey all, just though a bit about terror. We all know that it have some tech tree abilities which are "just there" (Goliav production, spy system, pz4, fire shells for mortar, and all vertical propohanda tree). Propohanda can be ok by price reduction, but goliavs and spyonage is really useless. So, as well as in upcoming patch there will be some grenadiers buffs instead of knights (thx to wolf) i suggest to replace this 2 unlocks with:
1) subversive grenadiers training ( will allow to set booby traps and charges ). Charges need for destroying fortifications, no Kch - means no more grenads assault ability, which was extremly cool against 17 pounder nests
2) disguise grenadiers training ( passive camo while not moving )/ smoke (???)

Grenadiers will be a reall backbone of terror and at least it would be interesting to buy various upgrades ( totaly 6 of them: incendary weapons, this new 2 cp unlock from wolf, subversive, disguise, zeal, nebels vt (although 2 nebels sucks, but if stuka will get buff it would be ok).

Together with propohada price reduction, doc will be really interesting in middle game (combining flexible grens with fire arty and tree abilities), not stupid "buy 2 Kch and try to survive till KT/Panther)

I will also say about tanks "component" of doc. First, i think it musnt have tank factory ( like def doc havent got heavy tank factory). Really, this building is also "just there", how often u see that terror player builds something there? I see Stug 3 once in 100 games, and never seen both pz4. Smart players simply doesnt spending res for that shit, cause you havent got any trades and every 50 fuel is extremly important for your late tanks production. Will be good to remove tank factory and allow active war phase right after assault phase witthout building anything more, but increase price of heavy tank factory to 600 mp and 80 fuel (or whatever). And! the most important, instead of 2 cp pz4 there will be a 2 cp zimmerit upgrade, which gives a good buffs to tanks. Because i really belive that terror tanks must be better in late game than others, why?
1) Terror havent got any res buffs (mp trade for BK, fuel trade in TH and BK, upkeep upgrades for USA, huge res income buff for royal engeniers)
2) Terror havent got any call ins for mp ( aces in 3 docs, jumbo, se beute panzer, ferdinand, shermans battle group, caliope, bk battle group with pz4\or stugs)
3) Terror cant avoid TC limit ( like all docs with heavy tanks call in)

I think that would pretty fair compensation, significantly better tanks but in few numbers and no fuel = no tanks, not like in other docs where u need mp only, or ammo and mp only.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Warhawks97 » 27 Dec 2014, 17:15

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Hey all, just though a bit about terror. We all know that it have some tech tree abilities which are "just there" (Goliav production, spy system, pz4, fire shells for mortar, and all vertical propohanda tree). Propohanda can be ok by price reduction, but goliavs and spyonage is really useless. So, as well as in upcoming patch there will be some grenadiers buffs instead of knights (thx to wolf) i suggest to replace this 2 unlocks with:
1) subversive grenadiers training ( will allow to set booby traps and charges ). Charges need for destroying fortifications, no Kch - means no more grenads assault ability, which was extremly cool against 17 pounder nests
2) disguise grenadiers training ( passive camo while not moving )/ smoke (???)

Grenadiers will be a reall backbone of terror and at least it would be interesting to buy various upgrades ( totaly 6 of them: incendary weapons, this new 2 cp unlock from wolf, subversive, disguise, zeal, nebels vt (although 2 nebels sucks, but if stuka will get buff it would be ok).

Together with propohada price reduction, doc will be really interesting in middle game (combining flexible grens with fire arty and tree abilities), not stupid "buy 2 Kch and try to survive till KT/Panther)

I will also say about tanks "component" of doc. First, i think it musnt have tank factory ( like def doc havent got heavy tank factory). Really, this building is also "just there", how often u see that terror player builds something there? I see Stug 3 once in 100 games, and never seen both pz4. Smart players simply doesnt spending res for that shit, cause you havent got any trades and every 50 fuel is extremly important for your late tanks production. Will be good to remove tank factory and allow active war phase right after assault phase witthout building anything more, but increase price of heavy tank factory to 600 mp and 80 fuel (or whatever). And! the most important, instead of 2 cp pz4 there will be a 2 cp zimmerit upgrade, which gives a good buffs to tanks. Because i really belive that terror tanks must be better in late game than others, why?
1) Terror havent got any res buffs (mp trade for BK, fuel trade in TH and BK, upkeep upgrades for USA, huge res income buff for royal engeniers)
2) Terror havent got any call ins for mp ( aces in 3 docs, jumbo, se beute panzer, ferdinand, shermans battle group, caliope, bk battle group with pz4\or stugs)
3) Terror cant avoid TC limit ( like all docs with heavy tanks call in)

I think that would pretty fair compensation, significantly better tanks but in few numbers and no fuel = no tanks, not like in other docs where u need mp only, or ammo and mp only.




1.)Incendiary for mortar could stay. Its pretty usefull against brits mortar.
2.) Goliath mass production removal. Instead Grenadiers could get kind if defensive bonus upgrade or training or kind of that.
3.) I like the spy unlock actually and is often one of the first things i unlock to see what enemie has got.
4.) The propaganda could be cheaper.


For Tanks and buildings its similiar to what ive suggested:


I would do a new tank unlock and consider that we have one free unlock remaining from goliath mas prod removal.

3CP: Tiger-> 1 CP: Tank IV G unlock (to have something to compensate as it is still good enough to kill HT´s, shermans and stuff) -> 4 CP KT. The Final HQ upgrade could be made without need of tank factory (third building) and thus allowing to go directly for the Heavy Tanks which should be the docs purpose.

Therefore no Panthers anymore and the success will be achieved to bring Tigers faster as usual and KT´s earlier.

We have now two unlocks available for other stuff. So for Destroying enemie defenses if not with grenadiers i do think about moving Stupa to this doc. Just i am scared as it still outranges tanks and most likely it will be like stupa makes first hit on tank from save distance and tiger finishs them off.

If The stupa would get a range like normal Tanks then we could have it with following unlock:

After Tank IV which is unlocked after Tiger with total of 4 CP required one line would got to King Tiger (see above) and one to a Stupa for another 2 CP. Makes 6 in Total for stupa and Tiger and Tank IV are unlocked before. So 6 CO for Tiger,Tank IV G and stupa.

The stupa would then be available in heavy Tank factory. If used the player would need to take out at least 17 pounders which is still possible with two neblers and VT and cover flanks with schrecks or Tank IV or a KT could be used as a shield against 17 pounders etc.

If we would really go ahead in changing these stupid sturmpanzer and sturmhaubitzen so that they wont work as long range field weapons then we could have so much more options to change their unlocks, time of availability, cost and thus better unit combination with more tactical skills which would be so much more interessting.


Zimmerit i dont think its really neccessary. A heavy tank that would come so much earlier than any other and earlier as we are used to would already be a great buff.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Yummy » 27 Dec 2014, 18:19

Luckily you can't change command trees, Oliver :D. Otherwise you would make USA armour unbeatable and terror to has tigers before allies are able to get out paks!
Propaganda abilities should be a lot cheaper, espionage is good I like it.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Warhawks97 » 27 Dec 2014, 18:32

Yummy wrote:Luckily you can't change command trees, Oliver :D. Otherwise you would make USA armour unbeatable and terror to has tigers before allies are able to get out paks!
Propaganda abilities should be a lot cheaper, espionage is good I like it.



why should i do that when in fact BK doc is my favorit doctrine of all. US armor is currently simply boring (like TH doc) and silly as well. Its only persh and Jumbo which are somewhat effective. The others need half dozens upgrades first and 50% of the game and ressources are wasted for upgrades, buildings etc and finally running usually out of fuel. Add to that how boring this doc is and how rigid. But thats not for this topic.

Well i see Tank IV´s just when allied get paks but seldomly Tigers. But maybe that will change when players dont need to unlock their main infantry anymore and going directly for tanks.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby mg42slo » 27 Dec 2014, 19:04

Why make propaganda cheaper its already over the top annoying on some maps? besides its really a bs ability to have a forced retreat same goes for officers from US and Wehr factions, maybe teror could be unique with officers like a passive ability without unlock... U use propaganda on your own troops, the enemy gets their brainwashing at home... im all for adding stealth and booby traps tho, the Goliath points could easily go to that.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Warhawks97 » 27 Dec 2014, 22:05

mg42slo wrote:Why make propaganda cheaper its already over the top annoying on some maps? besides its really a bs ability to have a forced retreat same goes for officers from US and Wehr factions, maybe teror could be unique with officers like a passive ability without unlock... U use propaganda on your own troops, the enemy gets their brainwashing at home... im all for adding stealth and booby traps tho, the Goliath points could easily go to that.



OK, lets remove all forced retreat abilites. I wont have a problem with it. We would have 2 further free slots for terror then when propaganda and sector propaganda is gone:)

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 29 Dec 2014, 09:49

Espionage....what is usefull in it? It shows how tank doc player producing tanks and how inf doc player producing inf. I mean that as long as you saw enemies doc, you already know what to expect and in what time (jumbo, recce and etc.) Raf doc have same thing for 1 cp, but with triangle sector, which can be extremly usefull. Propohanda dint need to be removed, just need to be cheaper and it will be cool tactic feature (force to retreat engeniers who are trying to repair immobolized tank), anyway there will not be sense to use it against brits, cause their HQ is always not far from a front. Still think that pz4, goliafs and spy system need to be replaced with 2 grens upgrades and zimmerit, it would be awesome and interesting for gameplay and will give a difference between bk and terror docs. (better tanks but in less numbers, and worse inf without middle tanks support, but with many cool upgrades and fire arty support).

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby MarKr » 29 Dec 2014, 11:22

I talked to Wolf about the price reduction and he told me that he considered it but after giving it a thought he realized that these abilities actually have a lot of potential and price reduction would make them too cheap...
The force retreat - it is underused atm but if you know how to use it, you can totally rule some situations. Or you get your unit with MP44s behind enemy units, then force retreat this unit and you get free kills on the retreating unit since it flees right into the MP44 death-trap. Enemy capturing your sector? Force retreat and you are out of trouble.
Sector propaganda (or whatever it is called - just that sector force retreat) - all you need is one spotter and you actually have sector imune to capturing for some time - this is espetially usefull in VP mode. Only thing that can capture sectors is some British Bren carrier with infantry inside or US armor doc's light vehicles with an upgrade.

So they are not as useless as they might seem you just need the right situation to use it. Maybe it could get price drop but then the cooldown would surely go up and it will be undeused again because of that I guess...
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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 29 Dec 2014, 12:04

MarKr wrote:I talked to Wolf about the price reduction and he told me that he considered it but after giving it a thought he realized that these abilities actually have a lot of potential and price reduction would make them too cheap...
The force retreat - it is underused atm but if you know how to use it, you can totally rule some situations. Or you get your unit with MP44s behind enemy units, then force retreat this unit and you get free kills on the retreating unit since it flees right into the MP44 death-trap. Enemy capturing your sector? Force retreat and you are out of trouble.
Sector propaganda (or whatever it is called - just that sector force retreat) - all you need is one spotter and you actually have sector imune to capturing for some time - this is espetially usefull in VP mode. Only thing that can capture sectors is some British Bren carrier with infantry inside or US armor doc's light vehicles with an upgrade.

So they are not as useless as they might seem you just need the right situation to use it. Maybe it could get price drop but then the cooldown would surely go up and it will be undeused again because of that I guess...

They are cool itself, but i really seldomly see how somebody use it, because its much more sense in using some of arty which will kill enemie and bring you some CP points ( 50 ammo nebel barage for ex), while for propohanda you will spend 100 ammo, what is pretty much, but will not give any losses to enemie, so its just kinda "buying some time for ammo". I think 75-80 ammo will be more reasonable for that ability.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Yummy » 29 Dec 2014, 12:56

MarKr, normally you have correct vision over stuff, but this time I must disagree with you. Terror doctrine should be exactly propaganda, making enemy soldier to be frighten, to low the morale(though we don't have morale in coh), to force retreat. At the moment or it used to be rush for KT II and KCH run and kill tactics. Propaganda abilities should cost the half the current price with a little longer cooldown. I don't see how cheap propaganda, which is forcing retreats will make it overpowered, it will surely deny enemy capture rate and probably blobing assaults. Then the ganda playstyle might change and since terror does not have stealth camo, a good player wouldn't allow to be flanked so easily. After all keeping your flanks secured is part of the game.

P.S. And consider that allies are able to spam cheap infantry! If you play against terror just don't blob it.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby MarKr » 29 Dec 2014, 13:21

I don't see how cheap propaganda, which is forcing retreats will make it overpowered, it will surely deny enemy capture rate and probably blobing assaults.

Think about huge maps. Opponent has infantry in about the middle of the map and you use this ability. The time they spend on the retreat to HQ is fricking long. Also combined with team arty you can time it so that by the the time they reach the HQ, shells start to hit. That means dead squad(s). Also don't forget that Officer has the ability too... Sector propaganda - if there are some choke points on the map (such as bridges) your opponent's only chance is to go with tanks since infantry insta-retreats. Bridges are easily defended by PaKs...

Then the ganda playstyle might change and since terror does not have stealth camo, a good player wouldn't allow to be flanked so easily.

Again think about team play - you drop Fallshirms a bit behind a squad, use their passive camo, your mate uses Propaganda, squads retreat close to Fallies = free kills/ XP/ Veterancy.

Yes these things don't happen often but when they do, the potential of these abilities shows up. And having such a thing for 50 ammo is quite cheap.
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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Yummy » 29 Dec 2014, 13:44

Sorry, but I still disagree with you, MarKr. And I will tell you why. Brits have sniper priests (that shoots every second and a half with veterancy) just for 50 ammo and spotter artillery call in! Americans have multiple artillery strikes that can decimate entire elite squads and tanks for quit low ammo price.
So do you think it is fair ability that just force retreat should cost 100 ammo?
My point of view is that it is ridiculous to have so effective air strikes and call in artillery for nearly the same price like propaganda. People don't use this ability for a reason.
Again think about team play - you never know where you will drop your paratroopers and/or if they will be spotted and killed, which means = free kills/ xp / veterancy :P.

P.S. Markr, please, look at Marder III reward unit, it is performing really bad, I think there is something wrong, thanks.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 29 Dec 2014, 13:49

I agree with Yummy, propohanda cost nearly as much as all arty call ins and airstrikes, which are absolutely deadly to any inf, but propohanda just forces to retreat..

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 29 Dec 2014, 13:56

MarKr wrote:
I don't see how cheap propaganda, which is forcing retreats will make it overpowered, it will surely deny enemy capture rate and probably blobing assaults.

Think about huge maps. Opponent has infantry in about the middle of the map and you use this ability. The time they spend on the retreat to HQ is fricking long. Also combined with team arty you can time it so that by the the time they reach the HQ, shells start to hit. That means dead squad(s). Also don't forget that Officer has the ability too... Sector propaganda - if there are some choke points on the map (such as bridges) your opponent's only chance is to go with tanks since infantry insta-retreats. Bridges are easily defended by PaKs...

Then the ganda playstyle might change and since terror does not have stealth camo, a good player wouldn't allow to be flanked so easily.

Again think about team play - you drop Fallshirms a bit behind a squad, use their passive camo, your mate uses Propaganda, squads retreat close to Fallies = free kills/ XP/ Veterancy.

Yes these things don't happen often but when they do, the potential of these abilities shows up. And having such a thing for 50 ammo is quite cheap.

Brits are retreating to truck, big maps not a problem for them. Usa tank doc doesnt use inf nearly at all, airborn and inf doc can have captain or command team for retreat units back:D, i dont think that it will be big problem.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby MarKr » 29 Dec 2014, 14:30

Sorry, but I still disagree with you, MarKr. And I will tell you why. Brits have sniper priests (that shoots every second and a half with veterancy) just for 50 ammo and spotter artillery call in! Americans have multiple artillery strikes that can decimate entire elite squads and tanks for quit low ammo price.
So do you think it is fair ability that just force retreat should cost 100 ammo?

The thing is that it has potential to be very strong ability but people don't use it that way.
I don't know. What Wolf said made sense to me and what you say makes sense too. The bottom line is that if you convince Wolf, it might be changed, he has the final word in this ;).

airborn and inf doc can have captain or command team for retreat units back:D, i dont think that it will be big problem.

Yes, but Propaganda forces them to retreat to HQ not these alternative retreat points. For US Armored and CW you're right.

P.S. Markr, please, look at Marder III reward unit, it is performing really bad, I think there is something wrong, thanks.

What's wrong there? Penetration, damage, reload speed...? I can look at it but unless I know what to look for I'm fumbling in darkness :D
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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Yummy » 29 Dec 2014, 14:36

Well I've never seen wolf in any competitive games, so... His theoretical thoughts how OP it might be are surely wrong on the background of artillery cost/effectiveness.

About Marder III, it has terrible accuracy even ambushed and I think low damage output?

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby QWERTYAndreas » 29 Dec 2014, 18:40

Instead of replacing Goliaths, may i request a small buff? Something like camo for a short distance when moving, making it possible to take out a tank. This Little bugger is perfect in the theme of the terror doc.

And really... I have played some games. Its not that stuff is "not used". It is that lot of the players are bad.
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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Warhawks97 » 30 Dec 2014, 03:39

i honestly havent thought about using propaganda that way. Mostly its used as final defense^^.

I am currently thinking to replace any kind of propaganda ability with other stuff. Talking about every propaganda (WE officer, US captain). The ability is seldomly used but has potential, its simply unrealistic thats why i think we could replace it with other stuff. Tigerphobia is btw also propaganda warfare just added to units. Maybe propaganda in any way can be changed more like that being passive or active abilties buffing neaby troops or reducing enemie units performence a bit (and over a short time).

For Marder III: compare pen stats with Marder I maybe and accuracy.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 30 Dec 2014, 09:03

I think its much better to fix price a bit, than think about replacing.
@Andreas, i think still nobody will use it. Really prefer more tree buffs for your main inf in terror doc.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 01 Jan 2015, 12:18

I tested all tree abilities, spy system not as bad as i thought, it also shows where enemie builds fortifications. But goliaf production and "inspire to assault" are totally useless (works few seconds, cost 50 ammo, improves damage a bit, but troops are dieing faster). So, as i suggested, will be cool to replace this 2 things with grenadiers camo\smoke and subsersive trainings.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Jan 2015, 14:40

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:I tested all tree abilities, spy system not as bad as i thought, it also shows where enemie builds fortifications. But goliaf production and "inspire to assault" are totally useless (works few seconds, cost 50 ammo, improves damage a bit, but troops are dieing faster). So, as i suggested, will be cool to replace this 2 things with grenadiers camo\smoke and subsersive trainings.



You may cause the same probs as commandos have/had inculding this. At the beginning cheap reinforcment cost are justified but later, after all the training and upgrades, being OP to everything else due to exactly these cheap reinforce cost. Just difference is that commandos are only played by commandos knowing that they will become elite later and cost could be adjusted. Grens would still be basic inf for def and even Bk doc now and thus new cost adjustments to balance them for terror doc after all the upgrades would be rather hard as it would affect two other docs as well. So we need to be carefull with giving so many buffs that they easily become elites.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 01 Jan 2015, 14:57

Warhawks97 wrote:
Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:I tested all tree abilities, spy system not as bad as i thought, it also shows where enemie builds fortifications. But goliaf production and "inspire to assault" are totally useless (works few seconds, cost 50 ammo, improves damage a bit, but troops are dieing faster). So, as i suggested, will be cool to replace this 2 things with grenadiers camo\smoke and subsersive trainings.



You may cause the same probs as commandos have/had inculding this. At the beginning cheap reinforcment cost are justified but later, after all the training and upgrades, being OP to everything else due to exactly these cheap reinforce cost. Just difference is that commandos are only played by commandos knowing that they will become elite later and cost could be adjusted. Grens would still be basic inf for def and even Bk doc now and thus new cost adjustments to balance them for terror doc after all the upgrades would be rather hard as it would affect two other docs as well. So we need to be carefull with giving so many buffs that they easily become elites.

Commando becoming superhumans itself, much more HP and damage after all upgrades, here i suggesting just abilities, they will not improve combat value of grens directly. Just booby traps ( alies btw have them in 2 docs, will be fair), charges\satchels instead of old kch assault ability + maybe passive camo.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby V13dweller » 01 Jan 2015, 16:46

The Marder III has wild spread, unless it lands the first shot in camo.

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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Wake » 01 Jan 2015, 21:05

No, don't give booby traps to grenadiers. The comparison between 2 docs that can for allies and 2 for axis is true, but currently almost every single Scorched Earth infantry unit can booby trap points, meanwhile the only units that can do it for allies are CQB squads and commandos once they get a 1CP upgrade. The allied units are very specific and elite and often don't get the opportunity or chance to lay booby traps, while the axis have basic infantry doing it. The grenadiers are still basic infantry, and shouldn't get something that is reserved for elite units (allies) or a doctrine completely devoted to it (Scorched Earth).

If you want to do terror, don't do it in the form of uber super human infantry, but do something that scares the allies aside from that.

Maybe like a fake nebelwerfer that costs 50 MP like the fake 25 pounder and makes the sounds and smoke? Or something that creates fake icons on the map. Heck, snipers are terrifying to infantry. Maybe give terror doc the ability to make 3 snipers instead of just 2.
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Re: Replacing useless tree upgrades from terror doc

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Jan 2015, 21:10

Wake wrote:No, don't give booby traps to grenadiers. The comparison between 2 docs that can for allies and 2 for axis is true, but currently almost every single Scorched Earth infantry unit can booby trap points, meanwhile the only units that can do it for allies are CQB squads and commandos once they get a 1CP upgrade. The allied units are very specific and elite and often don't get the opportunity or chance to lay booby traps, while the axis have basic infantry doing it. The grenadiers are still basic infantry, and shouldn't get something that is reserved for elite units (allies) or a doctrine completely devoted to it (Scorched Earth).

If you want to do terror, don't do it in the form of uber super human infantry, but do something that scares the allies aside from that.

Maybe like a fake nebelwerfer that costs 50 MP like the fake 25 pounder and makes the sounds and smoke?



thats true.

So i would be OK for a passive cammo upgrade. Maybe grenade bundles. We need to be carefull what to add and how to buff. Grenade bundle+ evasive maneuvers= cheaper stormtoopers.

I am not quite sure what else we could add.


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