.303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

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speeddemon02
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.303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby speeddemon02 » 31 Mar 2017, 07:03

CW MG team is 300mp and 20muni and the US is 270mp and 15 muni. I was curious why this is? It might be just me, but the CW mg team is always inferior compared to the american one.

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Tiger1996
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 Mar 2017, 12:33

If anything; then I think it's the MG42 teams that are truly overpriced...
30 munition and 350 MP! While they aren't really that much better if u ask me, Commando units have smoke ability and they are able to easily bypass MG teams. Also, most other Allied troops (such as 82nd Airborne and CQB squads for example) have fire-up ability as default (no veterancy required) which removes suppression and allows them to sprint... Of which is another way to bypass any MG42 teams.

Or the silly Gliders tactic landing above mortar teams.. Paks and MG teams, or the CW Rifle Section squad standing behind heavy cover, taking absolutely no damage.. and sniping the MG team from such a long range...

Not to mention that late game Allied troops get really enough bonuses from the veterancy unlocks (specifically Commandos and SAS) as they could then even walk in front of MG42s actually!

I know Axis infantry can probably do the same when they are also veteran... But I honestly never understood why the MG42 teams are that MUCH more expensive really.

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sgtToni95
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby sgtToni95 » 31 Mar 2017, 16:44

I think mg 42 have higher suppression output, probably due to rate of fire, and they're very deadly.. to prove that you can see how 2 vickers in a kangaroo are not enough to suppress fallshirm or at squads (less often) while a stolen mg42 starts suppressing almost innediately at max range.. i didn't look at stats through corsix, but seing how theese weapons perform in game i bet mg42 has better stats than both vickers and US mg to justify this price difference.. section can snipe that, paying 105 ammo for 3 squad members, waiting 30(?) Secobds between each shot while axis has normal snipers wich can do the job for free and much faster. 2 inch mortars have almost the same range that mg42s have, while with wehr mortars and mortar halftracks (available for pe as well) you can easily outrange with indirect fire theese mgs (i know it's almost the same for US) but not as brits. As brits you also have to consider mg must be shooting to be spotted and sniped, since they don't have crawling spotters, and many times suppression seems to go over the shooting range of the mg, eventually suppressing your sniping section. Dunno about the us one, but in my opinion the price difference with the CW mg team is fair as it is.

speeddemon02
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby speeddemon02 » 31 Mar 2017, 17:18

I have no issue with the MG42 team. The price is fair. I played a game last night where the mg42 out ranged my CW team in a building. Luckily i had an infantry section nearby to deal with them.

The M1917 has better suppression, kills squads faster, and seems to have better accuracy so the early vehicles are actually taken out. While the CW mg team just sits there not always suppressing let along pin axis troops, pelts enemy vehicles with little to no damage while infantry out flank or completely bypass them. If the stats do reflect this maybe they should be lowered to something like 250mp and 10 muni, maybe lower some stats, or boost say length of fire to compensate and have a better chance to suppress?

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Tiger1996
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 Mar 2017, 17:35

sgtToni95 wrote:I think mg 42 have higher suppression output

It's actually the complete opposite... Allied MGs have higher suppression, CW Vickers is no exception.. but the MG42 - supposedly - kills faster on the other hand.

speeddemon02 wrote:I played a game last night where the mg42 out ranged my CW team in a building.

That's not because the MG42 has higher range; both have equal range. But I think when HMG units are inside any buildings.. sometimes they wouldn't shoot for some reasons. Or perhaps they would lose some range advantage... Not sure. But I doubt that it's related to the range of the MG42 being higher anyhow!
======================================
My point wasn't to give a shout about the price of MG42 teams.. otherwise I would have created a topic about it if I really wanted.
As I also think that their price is quite "OK" at the end. But honestly not really "fair" though... Since there is a lot of counters to Axis MG teams like I clarified above. However, keeping this in mind.. then I can see no reasons whatsoever to point at the price of the Vicker MG team claiming that it's too expensive.. somehow... When it's already cheaper! o.O

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 31 Mar 2017, 18:35

Tiger1996 wrote:
sgtToni95 wrote:I think mg 42 have higher suppression output

It's actually the complete opposite... Allied MGs have higher suppression, CW Vickers is no exception.. but the MG42 - supposedly - kills faster on the other hand.


It is not "supposedly", the MG42 indeed kill faster and yes allies got a bit more supression.
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Lionelus
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby Lionelus » 01 Apr 2017, 13:02

Hello community

Here are some Corsix data for mg, especially the cooldown

US cal 30
cal 30 duration.JPG
cal 30 duration.JPG (14.67 KiB) Viewed 211 times

cal 30 duration multiplier.JPG
cal 30 duration multiplier.JPG (18.56 KiB) Viewed 211 times


Axis MG42
Mg 42 duration.JPG
Mg 42 duration.JPG (16.26 KiB) Viewed 211 times

Mg42 duration multiplier.JPG
Mg42 duration multiplier.JPG (18.36 KiB) Viewed 211 times


CW Vickers
Vickers duration.JPG
Vickers duration.JPG (14.23 KiB) Viewed 211 times

Vickers duration multiplier.JPG
Vickers duration multiplier.JPG (18.26 KiB) Viewed 211 times


CW Vickers has less damage (not a big difference with other MG). But delay between burst is way longer
Basically, Vickers is bursting during 3 seconds, then wait 3 / 4 seconds, whatever the range, before shooting again.
It seems the is not counter-balanced by other stats (reload, rate of fire ...). This is how Vickers works at the moment.

But as I understood, It's not all about weapons stats, there may be some global balancing reasons for this, for sure.

I'm mostly a brit player, and I rarely go for Vicker. And when i do, i always end up regretting that choice.

Only suggestion I would have is to reduce duration multiplier at short range, so it would more oftently shoot, at least at short range.
Or increase bursting time, so Vickers fires more bullets ; in that case the long delay between burst would be fine.


Other point:
CW Vickers team crewman have Lee Enflied rifle. Whereas other MG team crewman have submachine gun (Mp40 and Grease gun), which perform actually quite well at killing infantry trying to flank and toss grenades and even light vehicules such as Jeep and Swimm.

But please, don't give Sten to CW MG crewman, that would be even worse. Considering how inefficient Stens are (but that's fine, balancing reason, i got it)

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MarKr
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby MarKr » 01 Apr 2017, 13:25

Lionelus wrote:CW Vickers has less damage (not a big difference with other MG).
This might be true in general (as for "basic damage") but since HMG's in the game have anti-infantry function it might be worth mentioning that Vickers MG actually has the highest damage-per-bullet against infantry of all the HMG weapons. However it has lowest rate of fire and thus its suppression is the slowest.
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Lionelus
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby Lionelus » 01 Apr 2017, 14:28

Markr wrote :
This might be true in general (as for "basic damage") but since HMG's in the game have anti-infantry function it might be worth mentioning that Vickers MG actually has the highest damage-per-bullet against infantry of all the HMG weapons. However it has lowest rate of fire and thus its suppression is the slowest.


True. There is a 1.5 damage multipler vs infantry. Highest per bullet damage. But when it comes to general damage output, considering rate of fire and cooldown, Vickers is not performing very well.

Even with that high damage per bullet, it seems reasonnable to lower multiplier duration at short range
It makes no sense that vickers has to stop firing 4/3 seconds before bursting again vs infantry located 3 meters of it while other mg can fire almost continuously at short range (0.4 duration multiplier)

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Tiger1996
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Apr 2017, 14:35

Panzerblitz1 wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:
sgtToni95 wrote:I think mg 42 have higher suppression output

It's actually the complete opposite... Allied MGs have higher suppression, CW Vickers is no exception.. but the MG42 - supposedly - kills faster on the other hand.


It is not "supposedly", the MG42 indeed kill faster and yes allies got a bit more supression.

I said "supposedly" because the MG42 can't really do anything against well placed infantry behind heavy cover specifically at long range.. but also medium range, and at this point the MG team might be considered overpriced.

Lionelus wrote:CW Vickers team crewman have Lee Enflied rifle. Whereas other MG team crewman have submachine gun (Mp40 and Grease gun)

This has its advantages and drawbacks.. might be better at longer ranges... But let's also not forget that the LeeEnfield is a fast firing rifle after all, like the M1 Carbine. US AT gun crews for example don't have sub-machine guns but M1 Carbines, whereas Axis AT gun crews have Kar98 rifles which aren't fast firing on the other hand... As they are better at long range but the disadvantage is that they are less effective at shorter range.

MarKr wrote:However it has lowest rate of fire and thus its suppression is the slowest.

I have noticed that the Vicker upgrade of the Bren Carrier actually has the highest suppression I have ever seen in the game, though not sure. Might be wrong... But it seems like the stats are different from all other Vickers!

Anyway, generally I think all HMGs are fine at the moment and there is no need to change any of them.

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MarKr
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby MarKr » 01 Apr 2017, 14:42

Tiger1996 wrote:I have noticed that the Vicker upgrade of the Bren Carrier actually has the highest suppression I have ever seen in the game, though not sure. Might be wrong... But it seems like the stats are different from all other Vickers!
That is just your feeling - Vickers mounted on Bren Carrier has same suppression values as normal Vickers...it actually creates suppression in smaller area than Vickers HMG team.
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Tiger1996
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Apr 2017, 14:45

Hmm, but such a suppression is still extremely high then... :P

mofetagalactica
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Re: .303 CW MG team vs US M1917 HMG

Postby mofetagalactica » 17 Apr 2017, 03:15

What the f tiger? mg42 are fucking infantry destroyers even in cover their price is fine.


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