Def off-map

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Relax
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Def off-map

Postby Relax » 29 Mar 2017, 23:42

Hi,
Just wanted to say that defensive doctrine rocket off-map barrage one shots SP.

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Leonida [525]
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Leonida [525] » 29 Mar 2017, 23:44

All times i used it on SP usually it took 3-4 hits to take it down, if oneshot happened is just rng i think:)

Relax
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Relax » 30 Mar 2017, 00:11

If you mean 3-4 rockets then that is correct. My point is that a single off-map one shots it, since the rockets drop like rain, there's no escape, it's irrelevant that it can survive 2-3 rockets.

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JimQwilleran
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Re: Def off-map

Postby JimQwilleran » 30 Mar 2017, 01:05

Yes, that's true. And it's intended I am afraid
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Relax » 30 Mar 2017, 10:46

So you're saying, it is intended that one point and click, no warning, no delay off-map one shots the 1900 MP super unit that can be only called once in the entire game.
Oh, ok, cool.

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MarKr
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Re: Def off-map

Postby MarKr » 30 Mar 2017, 11:30

Wasn't it the same with V1 when it was in the game? Yes, there was a delay but no real warning or anything. Anyway you say yourself that it takes 3-4 hits to destroy the tank...how many hits by 150mm rockets it should survive? It is called "super pershing" but the word "super" is not there because it is indestructible or whatever. It is tank and as any other tank it has weak armor on the top so the rocket would mess it up a lot. SP is a reward unit - you can use Pershing Ace instead which is not limited to one unit. If you want to use SP you need to count on the fact that Axis players know that it is a one-time thing and will focus everything they have to destroy it.
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Relax
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Relax » 30 Mar 2017, 12:25

You have a nicely developed creativity, assuming so much from my one sentence. What of it? Rocket would mess it up? And could rockets just fall from the sky at the snap of the fingers? This is a game last time I've looked.

All I'm saying is that one can just pay a certain amount of munition and point a mouse at enemy's 1900 MP one-timer unit and problem solved. And that is a fairly stupid gameplay if you ask me.

P.S V1 had a huge delay and this buzzing sound to warn the enemy and additionally was bugged that it often did zero damage, so nobody used it.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Tiger1996 » 30 Mar 2017, 13:42

What about Long Tom arty from inf doc instantly destroying heavy Axis tanks? What about Airborne planes?! What about RAF airstrikes? The list goes on...

As far as I can observe.. it's not a balance issue at all. Since it's obviously not the only click to kill ability in the game! It's true that SP is available only once, but Axis heavy tanks are still more expensive anyway... While they could be still countered easily with similar click to kill abilities.. in fact, the Allies probably have more click to kill abilities than Axis.

in terms of game-play, or I generally mean; game-play wise... Click to kill abilities might not be much fun.. gotta admit it... But in this specific case, I would say that it's not a balance issue for sure.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Redgaarden » 30 Mar 2017, 16:05

What about Long Tom arty from inf doc instantly destroying heavy Axis tanks? What about Airborne planes?! What about RAF airstrikes? The list goes on...

As far as I can observe.. it's not a balance issue at all. Since it's obviously not the only click to kill ability in the game! It's true that SP is available only once, but Axis heavy tanks are still more expensive anyway... While they could be still countered easily with similar click to kill abilities.. in fact, the Allies probably have more click to kill abilities than Axis.

in terms of game-play, or I generally mean; game-play wise... Click to kill abilities might not be much fun.. gotta admit it... But in this specific case, I would say that it's not a balance issue for sure.


Long tom has sound, large scatter, slow, less dmg than axis counterpart and cost more munitions.
Airborne planes can be shot down and seen coming.
RAF airstrikes can be shot down and seen coming.

I think he is complaining more about how fast and silent the ability is and that there is no way to counter it or see it coming + it's so powerfull that even bad rng will still result in the death of the target.


We could list all of them 1HK abilities

Long tom
AB bombs
RAF airstrikes
Grille
Sturmtiger
280mm Rocket barrage
steilhandgranate 42?
I'm sure there are loads I have missed but please add on if you please.
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Relax » 30 Mar 2017, 17:31

It wasn't in my interest to start a long stupid farce about axis vs allies or whatever.

If you want to compare it so much, ok. Long Tom has large scatter and its execution takes considerably more time than the rocket barrage. It's highly unlikely to kill even a panther (still possible, but very unlikely) with one call-in, not mentioning the heavier tanks.
US planes with bombs are very deadly, true. I'm not a big fan of them. But still at least you can shoot them down and you can dodge them (well, try to). And axis can call-in another tank. RAF plane is just weaker and less reliable version of it.
Moreover allies have a huge trouble taking out the heaviest axis tanks by direct means except for planes/arty. On the other hand every axis doc have tools to take out the strongest and most expensive allied tank (SP), weakest probably being Blitz (schrecks/faust/heatFrom50mm/tigerACE).

Redgaarden wrote:I think he is complaining more about how fast and silent the ability is and that there is no way to counter it or see it coming + it's so powerfull that even bad rng will still result in the death of the target.

Pretty much this, except "complaining" is too strong word for what I'm doing here.

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JimQwilleran
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Re: Def off-map

Postby JimQwilleran » 30 Mar 2017, 20:17

In my experience this rocket barrage is extremely rare, and I have seen it killing a SP only a few times. Def doc player usually spends most of his ammo on grille/arty. Because of little scatter if your target moves ur rockets will just hit the ground. Arty is more reliable imo. That is why I don't see this ability as a problem.
Also I don't know what game do you play but Long Tom is extremely useful for me, killing multiple heavy tanks on much bigger area (if u get lucky). In my hierarchy of 1-click abilities Long Tom is on the top, just before Grille.
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MarKr
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Re: Def off-map

Postby MarKr » 30 Mar 2017, 21:27

I can see Relax's point of view - quick off-map arty destroys best US tank which is also expensive and cannot get another. But there are many abilities that allow you to annihilate expensive units for relatively low price or with way cheaper units. Rocket ability on 50mm PaK, Riflemen with Supressive fire from BARs can pin and then easily kill even Reg5. "Veteran shot" from JP. Phosphorus shots from Chaffee can for several seconds immobilize even the heaviest Axis tanks (immobile = extremely easy target for pretty much anything). I can understand that SP is one-time unit so it hurts more losing it in this way but Allies are not meant to have super-effective tank counters to Axis heavy tanks and SP is an exception to this rule so it has some downsides. One of them is that it is one time only unit and opponent knows it, he knows it is the greatest danger to his units in the field and so he often focuses his strongest stuff on SP, not only off-map abilities but swarms of units. When you choose between SP and PAce you know this will be the case and you can choose to use PAce instead.
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Relax » 30 Mar 2017, 21:47

@MarKr
Well that is why it is breaking the gameplay. One chooses to pick SP and knows axis will "throw everything at it", so one must micro it well, cover it, use support units, while axis players know that the opponent depend so much on the SP so if they manage to destroy it....Here is where this off-map breaks this game. All you need is view and 200 muni and you strip off your opponent's strategy/choice with literally zero effort.

Axis have many ways to get rid of SP at their disposal, and good allied player should know them and try to counter them. But you can't do a thing if someone simply clicks a top of your tank and in a second there is a rain of death falling on it and it's over. That's what is wrong.

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MarKr
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Re: Def off-map

Postby MarKr » 30 Mar 2017, 22:08

You also need to consider that this scenario requires Armor doc and Def doc and not every time this happens because for some reason Def doc is considered weak and if team needs arty people usually choose PE SE doc. When people choose Def doc then I think what Jim wrote above is also true - people usually spend ammo on 105mm arty and Grille and in general I don't think that the Rocket ability is primarily used for destroying SP.
You also need to see the other side of the coin - "normal" arty such as 105mm, 25pounder and such have delay between each shot hitting the ground so it provides enough space for opponent to move away from the area. The rockets in this ability are not very strong (I mean each rocket individually) so if they give a hit of being opponent will move everything away and the ability will never do any damage and if, then only very low. The fact that it comes without any hint and the delay between rockets is low is the only advantage this ability has. Take it away and it will be useless. So we should turn an ability useless because it makes life miserable to SP?
One thing that confuses me - it has been like this for years so why is it a problem only now?
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Def off-map

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 30 Mar 2017, 22:53

Actually, ive been to a situations like this myself too.., and not once.

Losing "last hope units" on arty/rng/etc is what Coh is for real to me.That's somehow positive part of the gameplay to me, but one thing is, to catch unit on arty with lucky Timing(CoolDown)/arty shell crit and all this things, and different, is to lose game on unknown/no way to prevent thing that will 100% kill ur game without any warning's.

And ye, Grille is much more deadlier.Cheaper to use, earlier to get, shorter on CD, aiming..
80% of times my SP died consisting def doc - Grille kills it.
And normally, games when both sides have their Heavy tanks on field, they are counting every step, trying to catch each other with offmap/onmap arty, but again..

(I also can understand this dance between "realism/balance/gameplay", and that factions/units are different from their basic concepts, but i still cant explain to myself, How and why Grille is supposed to be the way it is now?Its just out of any logic.

Game(engine) itself has so many problems with arty/pathing and all kinds outranging units and here u go.., u get Grille as apogee of everything :D

Not asking any changes, not even complaining.Its just thing, that is above my comprehension (sorry for small offtop).
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Devilfish
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Devilfish » 30 Mar 2017, 23:11

I think it's not primarily used for destroying SP is because many players aren't aware of its capabilities. Additionally def doc is the least played wh doc by far I'd say. Same reason why I'm asking now, I've just discovered it recently. But what does it matter? Because not so many people play def doc, does it mean it's ok to have an unbalanced ability?

You also need to see the other side of the coin - "normal" arty such as 105mm, 25pounder and such have delay between each shot hitting the ground so it provides enough space for opponent to move away from the area. The rockets in this ability are not very strong (I mean each rocket individually) so if they give a hit of being opponent will move everything away and the ability will never do any damage and if, then only very low. The fact that it comes without any hint and the delay between rockets is low is the only advantage this ability has. Take it away and it will be useless. So we should turn an ability useless because it makes life miserable to SP?

I don't understand you. Common arty shoot shell after shell, thus after the first hit you one can immediately retreat. That's much worse than rockets. So you're truly telling me that there is no way to make this ability not one shot SP and not render it useless at the same time?

Please reread my previous post again, where I was directly reacting to your reasoning. Don't you agree? Do you honestly consider it ok? Everything's fine? Or is it "ah nobody plays def doc anyway, whatever"?
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JimQwilleran
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Re: Def off-map

Postby JimQwilleran » 30 Mar 2017, 23:15

Whoopsie, devil.
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Devilfish
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Devilfish » 30 Mar 2017, 23:16

Busted.
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Tiger1996
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Tiger1996 » 30 Mar 2017, 23:33

JimQwilleran wrote:Whoopsie, devil.

I knew it, it's not a surprise.. actually.
This is not how a new forum user would be typing, moreover.. the writing and attitude were both very familiar; usually I would first welcome new users before i manage to respond them... Which is what i didn't do here.. because I was pretty sure it's him.

But I really wonder, does he think it's funny?? Why would somebody do that?!

Anyway.

This Def doc off-map arty barrage.. is just one of several existing other click to kill abilities in the game for both sides... Complaining about it - alone - just because it kills the SP, is absolute nonsense.

It's like saying... "Hey, my KT died by Long Tom yesterday.. this is un-balanced!" And YES, the damage output of an (individual) Long Tom shell, is actually higher than the damage of any (individual) rocket.
And don't tell me the KT is available more than a once unlike the SP; because everybody knows that it's the MOST expensive unit in the game... More expensive than the JT, much more expensive than SP as well. Yet, 2 Long Tom hits are enough to send the KT to grave! And basically 1 hit is more than enough to kill a Tiger... Panthers only have 800 HP.

And btw, I wouldn't even consider the Grille a click to kill ability... Because it's not off-map. Keeping in mind that Priests can be very deadly even against the King Tiger when using the so called "aimed salvo" ability.

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Devilfish
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Devilfish » 30 Mar 2017, 23:46

Tiger1996 wrote:But I really wonder, does he think it's funny?? Why would somebody do that?!

One would thought you can figure it out after you've proved to be such a Sherlock. For once to be free of possibility of drama and prejudgement from certain lovely members of this community. Seems I've ran out of luck.

I'm afraid I must nicely ask you to step out of the topic, if you've got nothing reasonable to say and aren't able of senseful discussion.
Thank you.
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MarKr
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Re: Def off-map

Postby MarKr » 30 Mar 2017, 23:48

idliketoplaybetter wrote:Losing "last hope units" on arty/rng/etc is what Coh is for real to me.
If you use SP as "last hope unit" then you are usually in a situation where you lose anyway and just use SP and hope for some miracle to turn the game so the SP just postpones your loss.

Devilfish wrote:Because not so many people play def doc, does it mean it's ok to have an unbalanced ability?
The ability needs 7 CP to unlock and costs how much? 200 ammo? And under these conditions it is "unbalanced" because it can kill SP? It doesn't even 1-shot the tank, people said it needs to be hit by 3-4 rockets. How many rocket hits would be acceptable to kill it? All of them? If we bring this down and people will use the ability on SP in the future there will be posts here "WTF??? 12x 280mm rockets hit SP and it survives? That is bullshit! 200 ammo wasted!

idliketoplaybetter wrote:Common arty shoot shell after shell, thus after the first hit you one can immediately retreat. That's much worse than rockets.
"Yes, that is what I meant - common arty hits an area and player on the receiving end immediately retreats from there. The rockets are strong because they hit the ground in faster succession and so opponent doesn't have time to retreat units. If we make it the same way then it will hit at same rate as common arty and its effectiveness will drop a lot.
Devilfish wrote:So you're truly telling me that there is no way to make this ability not one shot SP and not render it useless at the same time?
Well, we could make the rockets hit the ground slower...but should we? Anything will then escape the AoE and it will be better to use 105 howitzers because they are cheaper.
We could lower the damage of the rockets against SP, but again...should we? 280mm rockets hitting something from the top will simply scrap it. And as far as I can see here you only have problem that it kills your SP, but that it kills other stuff just as easily is OK? Because if it is just about SP and we will do something with it, what will happen next? "JP can with Veteran shot ability can click-and-kill my SP? OP nerf!!! Henschels can click-and-kill my SP and since I can no longer build M16 as Armor doc, OP! Nerf!"

Look, we will think about it but since some people here say that the ability is in general not a problem I am not sure if nerfing it based on some people crying after they lost their SP several times to it is a good idea.

Oh and by the way from the forum guidelines:
Nieles wrote:1. Only allow one account for one member.If a member is found to have more than one account, that member may have all his accounts deleted from the database and have his IP blocked.
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Tiger1996
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Tiger1996 » 30 Mar 2017, 23:50

@Devilfish
You think that what u just did here is not drama in the first place? Why would u create a 2nd account if you are not asking for drama? Who do u think you are trying to fool? But ok, i am out of the topic.. it's nonsense and just a waste of time anyway... I promise you; you won't see any further posts by me in your "senseless" topic.

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Devilfish
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Devilfish » 31 Mar 2017, 00:23

Tiger1996 wrote:@Devilfish
You think that what u just did here is not drama in the first place? Why would u create a 2nd account if you are not asking for drama? Who do u think you are trying to fool?

Sherlock of your qualities surely sees that I've accidentally logged with my origin nickname out of habit and thus unintentionally exposed myself. And unfortunately, you came up asap like a dog after a meat.
Tiger1996 wrote:I promise you; you won't see any further posts

Good boy.

MarKr wrote:The ability needs 7 CP to unlock and costs how much? 200 ammo? And under these conditions it is "unbalanced" because it can kill SP? It doesn't even 1-shot the tank, people said it needs to be hit by 3-4 rockets. How many rocket hits would be acceptable to kill it? All of them? If we bring this down and people will use the ability on SP in the future there will be posts here "WTF??? 12x 280mm rockets hit SP and it survives? That is bullshit! 200 ammo wasted!

Ah, I don't really know what else to say. I can just repeat myself. Point is one just clicks on the SP and pays 200 muni and it's over. Zero effort. Does it really matter if it is killed by one rocket at a certain rate of fire or 3-4 rockets at 3-4x of that certain rate of fire? I don't think so.
MarKr wrote:should we? 280mm rockets hitting something from the top will simply scrap it.

Really? Again? Do 280mm rockets just rain from the heavens at command? No. It's game.
MarKr wrote:if nerfing it based on some people crying after they lost their SP several times to it is a good idea.

What? Do we talk about crying and kids here? Again repeating myself as always. Do you honestly think it is ok, to be able to effortlessly kill the one-timer most poweful allied tank with single click and 200 muni?

MarKr wrote:Oh and by the way from the forum guidelines:

You too? Big drama, really...? Do whatever your heart desires.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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MarKr
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Re: Def off-map

Postby MarKr » 31 Mar 2017, 00:43

Out of sheer curiosity - what would be your solution? A solution that will make the ability not "OP" AND will not turn the ability useless AND is doable in the game.

I am making "big drama" by pointing at the fact that you did something against the rules? If I went for drama it would have looked like this:
Wait a minute...Relax and Devilfish are one and the same person? (gasping for breath from the surprise) We all thought the two were twins but the whole time it was just one person? I am sooooo disapointed! I trusted you! And you betrayed my trust! I thought we are all friends here and friends don't lie to each other! Oh God, my life is ruined, how can I ever trust another person again after being deceived like this? And others too! I hope you gained something from this deception and it was worth ruining so many lives! How can you even sleep at night? And you know what the worst part is? You didn't lie just to me, you lied to the whole community! I hereby encourage every single member of BK community to delete Devilfish from their friendlist, block him and forget he ever existed and keep ignoring him until he writes a cincere appology from the depth of his heart to all of us. After this confession there needs to be a penance - he will walk half-naked through the streets escorted by the dev team, streets will be full of community members who will be able to throw vegetables at him and shout names at him. Wolf will hold a bell and every 10 seconds he will ring it and shout "SHAME!". Then and only then his appology can be accepted and you guys can add him to friendlist or unblock him again.
....this is drama,please don't make me write another one :D
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Warhawks97
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Re: Def off-map

Postby Warhawks97 » 31 Mar 2017, 00:52

Does it have to be rockets? :D

In Theory we could make it a simple 105 off map. But 7 CP are far too many i would say or? And would it look to similiar to inf doc?

Idk how the tree looks where the rocket arty is placed. 105, VT, rockets? But in theory things could get swapped arround.


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