2 seconds delay versus tanks

[MarKr]

OK so you pushed me into stats.
Tiger has at max range 0,608 (60.8%) to penetrate Pershing. (0.80864 = 80.864% with Wolfram + damage boost 25%)
Panther has at max range 0.576 (57.6%) to pentrate Pershing. (0.76608 = 76.608% with Wolfram + damage boost 25%)

Pershing has at max range 0.783 (78.3%) to Penetrate Tiger. (1.36242 = 136% -15% damage nerf)
Pershing has at max range 0.66642 (66,642%) to Penetrate Panther with skirts (1.159 = 159% -15% damage nerf).

So in numbers Pershing with AP ammo active will always penetrate Tigers and Panthers. However Tigers and Panters have about the same or higher chance to penetrate Pershings with AP (Wolfram) than Pershings without AP. But Axis tanks with Wolfram have +25% damage (which makes them able to one-shot Pershings) While Pershings with AP have -15% damage which reduces their chance of one-shotting Panthers and Tigers (you said they take two shots to kill by Pershing). The fact is that the best US tank cannot face the best top tier Axis vehicles. So what is the problem here? Pershings are meant to be counters to Panthers and Tigers and they are now. But Pershings still suck against anything that is above their tier. Keep in mind that Pershings are available in a single doctrine while Tigers are in BK and Terror and Panthers are in Terror and Luft so 4 doctrines have unit against which 1 Allied doctrine has a good counter (and try to tell me that your opponent goes usually double Armor) not to mention that every Axis doctrine has a unit that is on Pershing's tier or higher so they can destroy Pershings - Def doc Elepahnt, BK Tiger, Terror Tigers, Panthers and KTs, SE Nashorn, Luft Panthers, TH Nashorns, JPIV L70, Nashorns, JP and JT.
So if Allies do not pick Armor, you have units that can stomp them in the ground while if Axis pick any doctrine they have units to take out any Allied doctrine - this is simple fact. If I am wrong here tell where exactly.

Maybe in your games you saw that Pershings easily wiped Tigers or Panthers but that is their role. But I gave you some numbers and keep i mind that CoH has random factor in it and that means that not ten games but tens or hundreds show the real balance.

but now it´s ridiculous, now we build a tiger thinking it´s like a 76W, a Jumbo or a hellcat, not a heavy tank, but the price is still like a heavy tank, wich is unfair.

So in a case that your opponent doesn't have Armor doctrine, your Tigers and Pershings are still "not heavy tanks"? Also isn't this how Pershings felt to allies in past years? Now they are on same level so don't think that "I have tiger/panther so allies can kiss my ass" but treat your heavies more carefully. Actually in mid game PIV H/J are better than Shermans 76 so you can roll over Allies in this stage - Axis have upper hand. If you let the game drag to later stage, Allies might have a bit upper hand (still not unbeatable).

You say Markr about simple solutions, well ask allies for simple solutions and they have all of them, I haven´t seen any pantherturm since long long time ago, I haven´t seen any pack 40 emplacement, axis MG nests few few times, I mean there are units/buildings they are useless because of allies has always something to counter attack axis army,

Allies have nothing like Patherturm. Pak40 emplacement is equivalent to 76mm emplacement, Axis MG nest is equivalent to US/CW MG nests. Do you see these often? If yes, then what do Axis have to counter them that Allies don't have? In the past people complained that Axis had more arty which was used to fuck up emplacements - that did not change. Panther turms are rarely used because they are only in Def doc and this doc is underused. Really tell me - what counter in Axis army counter attacks these buildings that Allies do not build 76mm empacements or MG nets?
From my point of view you only point at "strong allies sides" but don't notice that Axis have the same or similar things too.

and the biggest frustration arrive when you come here and everybody tell you you know nothing and you want simple solutions.

and look into your consciousness and tell me you tried what I told you here instead of saying to yourself "nah, that is bullshit because xyz" without giving it a shot.

[kwok]

But what about the 75mm pak vs jumbo? Just wondering because I couldn't find the target table.

[Leonida [525]]

For Jumbo u need to update corsix dictionary, jumbo it's one of those hexadecimal codes (0x111D7F3A):
Pak40 Against it has these chances to pen it:
Max range: 25%
medium range: 30%
Short range: 41%

[SnowLeo]

OK so you pushed me into stats.
Tiger has at max range 0,608 (60.8%) to penetrate Pershing. (0.80864 = 80.864% with Wolfram + damage boost 25%)
Panther has at max range 0.576 (57.6%) to pentrate Pershing. (0.76608 = 76.608% with Wolfram + damage boost 25%)

Pershing has at max range 0.783 (78.3%) to Penetrate Tiger. (1.36242 = 136% -15% damage nerf)
Pershing has at max range 0.66642 (66,642%) to Penetrate Panther with skirts (1.159 = 159% -15% damage nerf).

So in numbers Pershing with AP ammo active will always penetrate Tigers and Panthers. However Tigers and Panters have about the same or higher chance to penetrate Pershings with AP (Wolfram) than Pershings without AP. But Axis tanks with Wolfram have +25% damage (which makes them able to one-shot Pershings) While Pershings with AP have -15% damage which reduces their chance of one-shotting Panthers and Tigers (you said they take two shots to kill by Pershing). The fact is that the best US tank cannot face the best top tier Axis vehicles. So what is the problem here? Pershings are meant to be counters to Panthers and Tigers and they are now. But Pershings still suck against anything that is above their tier. Keep in mind that Pershings are available in a single doctrine while Tigers are in BK and Terror and Panthers are in Terror and Luft so 4 doctrines have unit against which 1 Allied doctrine has a good counter (and try to tell me that your opponent goes usually double Armor) not to mention that every Axis doctrine has a unit that is on Pershing's tier or higher so they can destroy Pershings - Def doc Elepahnt, BK Tiger, Terror Tigers, Panthers and KTs, SE Nashorn, Luft Panthers, TH Nashorns, JPIV L70, Nashorns, JP and JT.
So if Allies do not pick Armor, you have units that can stomp them in the ground while if Axis pick any doctrine they have units to take out any Allied doctrine - this is simple fact. If I am wrong here tell where exactly.

Maybe in your games you saw that Pershings easily wiped Tigers or Panthers but that is their role. But I gave you some numbers and keep i mind that CoH has random factor in it and that means that not ten games but tens or hundreds show the real balance.

That's exactly m26 ALWAYS breaks tiger and Panther, what can be said about them. Panther in Luft doc complete shit which is not even worth talking about it is a waste of resources. And again, once this is the best tank, it should cost accordingly. And it costs 110 fuel, unlike the tiger or Panther. And now here has aptly remarked the gun: SREIAL KILLER. And the fact that a Panther or a tiger has a chance (JUST a CHANCE) to destroy the M26 Pershing with one shot is not enough. Even without AP rounds M26 is more likely. Throw in accuracy and you will receive, other things being equal still, M26 chances to win higher. As ANY mistake not a break put an end to the tiger or Panther. You are watching not in percent in absolute values. Read probability theory what is it then, in order to better understand what I mean.

[SnowLeo]

For Jumbo u need to update corsix dictionary, jumbo it's one of those hexadecimal codes (0x111D7F3A):
Pak40 Against it has these chances to pen it:
Max range: 25%
medium range: 30%
Short range: 41%

LOL. 25% ..... This is joke ))) Really need buf that....

[Leonida [525]]

Well, if u have pak40 camo i think u have a good chance to Pen it, also with apcr shells.. If u manage to run in endsieg phase u have stielgranate on pak38, and PE has it on 37mm HT (and tracks/engine breaker shot).. There are other ways, u can also hold fire on paks or at hts till the tank pass you and then shoot it on the rear, the other day I oneshotted a jumbo with SE nebelwerfer and killed one with 2 pak38 there are ways to stop them

[sgtToni95]

@MarKr
To go back to the topic: is it possible to decrease aimtime with vets? I wrote the reasons why ask this in a post before which you might have missed.

@EstadoMayor and SnowLeo: going back to a more objective point of view: could you tell us what should one do with Pershings once they're not effective against Panthers and Tigers? Just to know how, in your opinion, this would not break balance.
I hope you read that part where MarKr shows you how EVERY axis doc has a tank of same or higher tier than pershing (would be like having a churchill crocodile/pershing/SP in every allies doctrine), and that you did not forget Tigers and Panthers are very deadly against infantry as well with their mgs while pershings are not.

[SnowLeo]

@MarKr
To go back to the topic: is it possible to decrease aimtime with vets? I wrote the reasons why ask this in a post before which you might have missed.

@EstadoMayor and SnowLeo: going back to a more objective point of view: could you tell us what should one do with Pershings once they're not effective against Panthers and Tigers? Just to know how, in your opinion, this would not break balance.
I hope you read that part where MarKr shows you how EVERY axis doc has a tank of same or higher tier than pershing (would be like having a churchill crocodile/pershing/SP in every allies doctrine), and that you did not forget Tigers and Panthers are very deadly against infantry as well with their mgs while pershings are not.

Toni i talk about made the same parametrs. But now M26 have penetration EVRY SHOT with load ap roands, and only 80% tigers! If you add accuracy, you will see what m26 better then panters and tigers together! this is fair ? And cost fuel 110 and 180 ? different! You see only with allies side,,, and not see in axis side... You see only % i told about theory permannets.... See absolultly ciphers not perecnt!

[SnowLeo]

@MarKr
To go back to the topic: is it possible to decrease aimtime with vets? I wrote the reasons why ask this in a post before which you might have missed.

@EstadoMayor and SnowLeo: going back to a more objective point of view: could you tell us what should one do with Pershings once they're not effective against Panthers and Tigers? Just to know how, in your opinion, this would not break balance.
I hope you read that part where MarKr shows you how EVERY axis doc has a tank of same or higher tier than pershing (would be like having a churchill crocodile/pershing/SP in every allies doctrine), and that you did not forget Tigers and Panthers are very deadly against infantry as well with their mgs while pershings are not.

Toni i talk about made the same parametrs. But now M26 have penetration EVRY SHOT with load ap roands, and only 80% tigers! If you add accuracy, you will see what m26 better then panters and tigers together! this is fair ? And cost fuel 110 and 180 ? different! You see only with allies side,,, and not see in axis side... You see only % i told about theory permannets.... See absolultly ciphers not perecnt!

p.s: Interesting what you say if dev agree what this not fair and need some buf ? M26 need up fuel cost then and buf panter and tiger versus m26. 25% more damage if you are penetration m26/// as you see up this is only < then 80%. In this is time m26 eat you tanks with more then 90%

[sgtToni95]

I want to remind you, and it's already been said maaaany times in this thread, that Persings are limited to 1 doctrine, while axis can make big tanks with EVERY doctrine, and panthers/tigers are very effective against infantry as well, while pershings are not really the best to counter infantry. You can add that every axis doc able to build one of theese big tanks, has infantry buffs and other good things your opponent has to counter, while tank doctrine can pretty much count only on its tanks and not much more, if you make theese identical to axis counterparts this doctrine becomes useless/less useful.
If pershing has AP and penetrates every shot it still has very low chance to oneshot your tank, so you can go back with it and repair. Leonida yesterday lost his pershing in a 1v1 vs a tiger: he shoot tiger 3 times and could not kill it, bad luck but can happen.

P.S. 80% is still quite reliable imo, and that can be a oneshot while pershing will have to shot 2-3 times with AP.

[JimQwilleran]

Actually, if you ask me, the new changes made the game more realistic. That's pretty much how tiger vs pershing battle would look like.

Back to the topic: what about toni's idea to decrease aim time with vet for tank hunters? I really like it!

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Hello everyone First of i love this change tanks now Has a Chance to run and Not instantly die in sight of 2 at Team i am a very old bk player with over 1000 plus game sure this change fucked up many of my gameplay styles also i lose often since this Patch but people GET USED to this back then when Churchill got Buffet it was all Same also tank hunter is a Handy doc now.

[Devilfish]

Considering the zooks/schrecks, what about decresing the delay to 1s, but on the other hand, significantly decreasing the range? This will prevent the so hated mindless frontal rushing, but at the same time will allow clever flanking and surprise attacks and the 1s will be enough to not to get butchered by HE/mg/inf.

Considering 90mm vs cats. In my opinion the problem comes from the premise that Panthers/Tigers are mighty, expensive beasts that kill so well and are hard to kill, except facing heavy counters. Heavy counters kills them very easily. This leads to frustration on both sides. If allies don't have heavy counters aka 90mm/SP/17pooder, planes, heavy arty, cats feel OP, impossible to kill, butchering everything (except for Kwok, he breaks the meta, smoke it with 3 mortars and kill it with stickies). On the other hand, if allies successfully use heavy counters, axis lose huge amount of resources in a blink of an eye.
My idea is to make the axis heavies more vulnerable to lower tier weapons, like 76mm, shermans, m10s, etc. Maybe decreasing Tiger's HP a bit aswell. And on the other hand, decreasing the price significantly. This way, axis won't suffer so much from losing it and allies won't rely just on few OP abilities and doctrine specific units.

[SnowLeo]

Considering the zooks/schrecks, what about decresing the delay to 1s, but on the other hand, significantly decreasing the range? This will prevent the so hated mindless frontal rushing, but at the same time will allow clever flanking and surprise attacks and the 1s will be enough to not to get butchered by HE/mg/inf.

Considering 90mm vs cats. In my opinion the problem comes from the premise that Panthers/Tigers are mighty, expensive beasts that kill so well and are hard to kill, except facing heavy counters. Heavy counters kills them very easily. This leads to frustration on both sides. If allies don't have heavy counters aka 90mm/SP/17pooder, planes, heavy arty, cats feel OP, impossible to kill, butchering everything (except for Kwok, he breaks the meta, smoke it with 3 mortars and kill it with stickies). On the other hand, if allies successfully use heavy counters, axis lose huge amount of resources in a blink of an eye.
My idea is to make the axis heavies more vulnerable to lower tier weapons, like 76mm, shermans, m10s, etc. Maybe decreasing Tiger's HP a bit aswell. And on the other hand, decreasing the price significantly. This way, axis won't suffer so much from losing it and allies won't rely just on few OP abilities and doctrine specific units.

And dont forget about cost fuel. Persh cost only 110 fuel, tiger and pantera 180... and persh penetration ALLWAYS!!! Need reduce accuracy persh and up cost fuel... Or up accuracy for tiger and reduce cost fuel...

[JimQwilleran]

Don't you understand that the purpose of the change is to fight such attitude as yours?

What about the fact that tiger is available earlier than pershing?

Tigers and panthers are not only good AT weapon, but also deal with inf well, pershing can only fight tanks.

[SnowLeo]

Don't you understand that the purpose of the change is to fight such attitude as yours?

What about the fact that tiger is available earlier than pershing?

Tigers and panthers are not only good AT weapon, but also deal with inf well, pershing can only fight tanks.

M26 only tanks ? You are mistake - m26 very good kill inf...
Just a time Lehr upload replay to forum you can see how comet with oneshot kill pantera G then JPiVl70 and 2 paks cant penetration on rear armor!!!!

[idliketoplaybetter]

Comet is such a Comet

[MarKr]

We wrote PMs with the same stuff so I reply only here.
And by the way saying that someone got ban because he disagreed is total bullshit. You disagree and are not banned. People get banned when they start insulting others, saying how everyone is asshole and fag and I don't know what else. These people don't know how to behave and when they get banned (after several warnings!), they say it was "because they disagreed with devs".

Anyway...it is interesting how the topic started as "2 second delay is bad" and we are at "Pershings are OP and you don't speak about the 2 second delay anymore.

Panther in Luft doc complete shit which is not even worth talking about it is a waste of resources.

Yes, sure...same armor as Panther G, same gun, only missing turret MG...so the difference between a "one of the best tanks in the game" and "complete shit" is the turret MG...such statement from a veteran player is surprising. As Luft your Reg5 and Gebirgs can kill infantry easily so is it that hard to support your Panther with them? As I said before - people just want simple solutions. Panther G is good against tanks and infantry too, needs less support and is relatively fast so it is considered a good tank. Panther D has no turret MG so it doesn't kill infantry that good and because of that it needs support but because managing more units is harder, Panther D is shit...

And again, once this is the best tank, it should cost accordingly.

There is a difference between "best tank" and "US best tank. Pershing is US best tank and it is also the most expensive US tank...I don't know how else to explain it...look at this:
It is just a quick draw but you can see that Pershing is most expensive US tank but still not best tank in the game - Panther G and Tigers are more expensive because they also have turret MGs and abilities that can help them survive - Accurate Long Range shot can wreck things before they even see the Tiger etc. Pershing's only good anti-infantry weapon is the HE shot. It can kill stuff but Tigers and Panthers have that too + they have those MGs so they can operate with less support from infantry etc. As people told already - you can even get Tigers sooner than Pershings etc.

Just a time Lehr upload replay to forum you can see how comet with oneshot kill pantera G then JPiVl70 and 2 paks cant penetration on rear armor!!!!

Jeeez what? Why do you bring Comet now? Comet has not been changed for several patches and suddenly now it is a problem?

Man, you told me several times that I don't listen to players...I think I do but do YOU listen to players? Kwok, Leonida, sgtToni, Tiger - they play way more than I do and they tell you that the change is not as bad as you say. Are they all wrong?

[SnowLeo]

We wrote PMs with the same stuff so I reply only here.
And by the way saying that someone got ban because he disagreed is total bullshit. You disagree and are not banned. People get banned when they start insulting others, saying how everyone is asshole and fag and I don't know what else. These people don't know how to behave and when they get banned (after several warnings!), they say it was "because they disagreed with devs".

Anyway...it is interesting how the topic started as "2 second delay is bad" and we are at "Pershings are OP and you don't speak about the 2 second delay anymore.

Panther in Luft doc complete shit which is not even worth talking about it is a waste of resources.

Yes, sure...same armor as Panther G, same gun, only missing turret MG...so the difference between a "one of the best tanks in the game" and "complete shit" is the turret MG...such statement from a veteran player is surprising. As Luft your Reg5 and Gebirgs can kill infantry easily so is it that hard to support your Panther with them? As I said before - people just want simple solutions. Panther G is good against tanks and infantry too, needs less support and is relatively fast so it is considered a good tank. Panther D has no turret MG so it doesn't kill infantry that good and because of that it needs support but because managing more units is harder, Panther D is shit...

And again, once this is the best tank, it should cost accordingly.

There is a difference between "best tank" and "US best tank. Pershing is US best tank and it is also the most expensive US tank...I don't know how else to explain it...look at this:
It is just a quick draw but you can see that Pershing is most expensive US tank but still not best tank in the game - Panther G and Tigers are more expensive because they also have turret MGs and abilities that can help them survive - Accurate Long Range shot can wreck things before they even see the Tiger etc. Pershing's only good anti-infantry weapon is the HE shot. It can kill stuff but Tigers and Panthers have that too + they have those MGs so they can operate with less support from infantry etc. As people told already - you can even get Tigers sooner than Pershings etc.

Just a time Lehr upload replay to forum you can see how comet with oneshot kill pantera G then JPiVl70 and 2 paks cant penetration on rear armor!!!!

Jeeez what? Why do you bring Comet now? Comet has not been changed for several patches and suddenly now it is a problem?

Man, you told me several times that I don't listen to players...I think I do but do YOU listen to players? Kwok, Leonida, sgtToni, Tiger - they play way more than I do and they tell you that the change is not as bad as you say. Are they all wrong?

But listen another side: Estado, Wurf, poppa, Blitz .... About comet not for this patcj. comet about global balance....

m26 now the best TANK not tank destroy!

[SnowLeo]

We wrote PMs with the same stuff so I reply only here.

Just a time Lehr upload replay to forum you can see how comet with oneshot kill pantera G then JPiVl70 and 2 paks cant penetration on rear armor!!!!

Jeeez what? Why do you bring Comet now? Comet has not been changed for several patches and suddenly now it is a problem?

Man, you told me several times that I don't listen to players...I think I do but do YOU listen to players? Kwok, Leonida, sgtToni, Tiger - they play way more than I do and they tell you that the change is not as bad as you say. Are they all wrong?

But listen another side: WarLord, Blitz, Poppa, Estado. Wurf.... another folks//
Check values for pantera D they turret more slowly! And about op Pershing you never not agree what you made broke balance!

[MarKr]

Yes, so there are people who support what you say and there are people who support what I say. However you say that Pershings are totally OP and almost impossible to kill. That means that if they are so hard kill, everyone should experience what you say, but people say that Pershings are not such a huge problem, that means that there are people who can destroy Pershings. So destroying Pershings is not as impossible as you say and so the problem is not in balance but between the monitor and chair.

[SnowLeo]

Yes, so there are people who support what you say and there are people who support what I say. However you say that Pershings are totally OP and almost impossible to kill. That means that if they are so hard kill, everyone should experience what you say, but people say that Pershings are not such a huge problem, that means that there are people who can destroy Pershings. So destroying Pershings is not as impossible as you say and so the problem is not in balance but between the monitor and chair.

OMG. Waste time.. will see what you say after few time/// You know what you right, i kow whta pershing need some tune.. like all tanks need some tune... waste time... you wanna listen only what you wanna listen and made all for allies... buf allies, nerf axis etc etc etc ...

[Panzerblitz1]

Yes we will see after some pvp times, its too fresh for now to "rebuild" the entire bk units & meta because of few posts ... and it would be nice to stick to the main subject here, thx.

[sgtToni95]

Here's a game where Lehr shows you how to kill Pershings.

jagdtiger.rec

(5.8 MiB) Downloaded 35 times

You can see how the OP Pershing, Hellcats and shermans with 76mm gun bounce many times with AP rounds JGTiger's back (actually they never penetrated its rear) while jgtiger, a tank destroyer, is oneshotting infantry squads with HE shots. I guess this will be acceptable for you tho
I really think that since we're always repeating you the same things, and you don't seem to understand nor read what we say (when you do and see we're right, you just find something else to talk about 2sec AT=>Pershings OP=>Comet OP), you should really consider trying to play allies, to get a more objective point of view and to see what axis players will use to counter and destroy your pershings.
I tried to ask you what tanks doc would be with pershings being just average, considering it has no elite inf as BK,Terror and luft doc have together with panthers, together with arty and airstrikes, but you just keep ignoring me.
I tried to ask you if it would be fine for you if every allied doctrine had a pershing/comet/churchill croc, as EVERY axis doc has those "weak" tanks as tigers, panthers or bigger, but you just keep ignoring me.
I'm not actually looking for an answer to theese questions, but if you just could imagine what i asked you, maybe you could understand better the whole situation.

[MarKr]

It is ironic how you just say "waste of time" but don'give any counter-arguments.
Just tell me a single thing - if a group of people cannot do something, does that mean that nobody can do it? That is what you say - me and my friends have problems with killing Pershings so everybody must have the same problem and who says Pershings can be killed, are liars.

"buff allies, nerf axis" lol.... In last patch: cheaper PE infantry, hetzer and PIV F2 separate, JT has armor and gun buff, bigger cone of fire for 37mm pak, lower caliber AT HTs have bigger range, Henschels and Luft planes in general are better now...sure, no buffs for Axis....