PanzerIV vs 6pdr

[Panzerblitz1]

yes, i read a lot on the 57mm but in my mind it wasn't that good anymore versus late panzer 4 and Panthers/Tigers, iirc the british tried to replace it with something bigger like the US 76mm, but somehow couldn't due to technical problems, they replace the 6 pdr definitvely with the 17 pdr versus better armor.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Ye, 6pdr is very random gun, though, im not sure if in aspect of penetration it is that "unreliable".Fact is that, if u try to use field 6pdr(57mm USgun) against pz4H, then it will probably die to its topgunner before even hitting tank normally, ive seen that a lot. When on the other hand, 6pdr Churchill +APCR has so-so equal chances to take fight...BUT, in real ingame situation, there is always shrek/piat squad near by(and that mg42topgunner is still there, so consider allies chances for win ).

However, 6pdr is "unreliable", from other perspective and that is what Kwok pointed : " they don't shine because axis normally do not use medium tanks"/if its not a pz4H, which ingame reality is even deadlier then Panther considering price/timing effectivity.

[Devilfish]

yes, i read a lot on the 57mm but in my mind it wasn't that good anymore versus late panzer 4 and Panthers/Tigers, iirc the british tried to replace it with something bigger like the US 76mm, but somehow couldn't due to technical problems, they replace the 6 pdr definitvely with the 17 pdr versus better armor.

US 57mm, is exactly the same gun as 6prd, US adopted it from brits. About this replacing, I've read quite opposite. Even when they came out with 17pdr, they still continued producing tons of 6pdr, because it was much more mobile and flexible. And even though it wasn't effective against Tigers and Panthers frontally, it was able to deal with them from the side without a problem. APDS was able to deal with them frontally, but I have doubts about their active usage, if someone has an info about this, please share.

But really this realism discussion is just for historical curiosity, because balance is always first here.

@idliketoplaywithidliketoplaybetter
I don't usually play RE. But I've played couple of games and found churchill ineffective against even "shitty" pz4s, not even speaking of H/J. Of course as you said, schrecks and fausts everywhere doesn't help the situation, especially if you taken into account churchills speed. That's why I started this thread, but maybe I was very very unlucky for several games, don't know.

It's true that shitty pz4s aren't used that much, but it's not that severe. I often see using at least some kind of shit pz4, either stubby or F2. Or at least Stug III/IV. And the thing is, that one can't rely on 6pdr/57mm against these tanks. Yes, it can pen them and it's not like 5% chance, but far from reliably, and as you said they are easily taken down even by Stug top mg42 in a matter of seconds.

That's why you don't see 6pdr/57 that much used in games (6pdr almost not at all, because it's only available from FHQ). It's quite opposite on axis side. 50mm is waaaaay much more used than 75mm, because its early available, cheaper, much more mobile and it deals reliably with everything except jumbo/persh/church.

I'd personally love to use 57 more because I hate the sluggishness of 76mm and 17p. They are both very heavy and expensive and since axis know that they are the only one able to deal with >=tigers,panthers, you immediately get all nebels and arty and schecks teams on it and due to their sluggishness....

Especially with brits, 17p is so sluggish,440mp and axis always go after it as wasps on sweets. But I still seldom get 6pdr, because I need stupid FHQ and then I can't even rely on it against weaker axis machinery.

Don't take it as a rant, I'm used to it for a long time, just patch is coming in after a long time, so I thought some small revision might take place maybe. If someone was kind enough to dig out and post the penetration values of 6pdr/us57/churchs against axis tanks and maybe we can discuss some possible tweaks, keeping in mind our fragile balance of course.

[idliketoplaybetter]

"found churchill ineffective against even "shitty" pz4s", i believe u had extremely bad rng-luck game, though, there is definitely "gap", in what is considered mid game, in terms of ATgun usage.

MarkR said, "I will ask how you imagine these changes would look like". And although i understand all this balance mumbo-jumbo is nasty thing, but lets least figure few things from this, and then maybe our imagination will get bit more active

1)Let's say, no one is using 57mmATgun, due to low reliability(pen/health), or cause simply, game escalates too fast and u will better get 76mm(that's that gap i was talking about).

2)This way of representing 57gun(and all related units with it) was made for keeping Midt2-t3 armor of axis at some usage lvl. right?ok

If game is ideal, points 1 and 2 has no conflict between each other.U still able to hit pz4's and yet no need of heavier things, when axis are still able to use their lowtier armor.

But perfect games are very rare, so most of the time, it escalates too fast, so u have to overthink lots of things(which in terms of strategic planning is good ofcourse, but this exact example is not based on that, but on some other criterias).

Again, we all used to this "gap"/game rate, but it can be better...dont know how

[Devilfish]

1. If axis push hard for heavy tanks (as many often do now), then 57/6pdr effectiveness is irrelevant and can't cause any balance issue, right?
2. I don't see how 57/6pdr increased effectiveness will ruin mid armor usage. 50mm can penetrate almost all allied tanks and they are still being used.
You just need to be aware of at possibility and take care of it (plenty of ways [nebels are even yet bombing everything anyway]).

If we want to talk in general about axis gameplay being too much oriented on rushing expensive, powerful units, that's beyond the scale of this thread imo.

[Jalis]

For what I know the historical reason for 6 pdr replacement was not it was ineffective vs german panzer. Point however it was vs panther and tiger.
It was replaced on Churchill because, 57 mm wasnt enough efficient with HE shells. It is the same reason that made the 2 pdr obsolete. Most shells allied tank fired from Normandie to Berlin were HE shells. Acceptable efficiency started with the 75 mm.
AFAIK, on eastern front, most shells russians carried in their tanks were also HE. I can reasonably conclude it is what they fired the most too.

[Devilfish]

So, no change in this matter is going to happen in the upcoming patch?

[MarKr]

Unfortunately no. Buffing 57mm/6pounder guns would simply break the balance as it is set now. Axis almost never use PIV F2 because it is too weak (meaning "it dies easily to anything stronger than 37mm AT") and they rather go for PIV H/J because it is more durable. If the aforementioned guns get buffed so that they can reliably take out H/J then again Axis will be crying that all their medium tanks are crap while also expensive and will always rush for Heavies. Also if we buffed just AT guns, people will ask "why not also T48 and Churchills when it is the same gun?" and they would be right. If we buff all variants, that would be one more reason to take away range advantage from T48 (which will make it useless again) and Churchills won't be "strong armor but crappy gun" anymore but more of a "strong armor and relatively good gun". I think that kwok is right that the problem is not in 6pounders but with the usefulness of medium tanks in the Axis meta and changing the whole meta just because of 6 pounders is not a good idea because that would bring tons of balance issues which would take months to balance again.

[JimQwilleran]

Unfortunately no. Buffing 57mm/6pounder guns would simply break the balance as it is set now. Axis almost never use PIV F2 because it is too weak (meaning "it dies easily to anything stronger than 37mm AT") and they rather go for PIV H/J because it is more durable. If the aforementioned guns get buffed so that they can reliably take out H/J then again Axis will be crying that all their medium tanks are crap while also expensive and will always rush for Heavies. Also if we buffed just AT guns, people will ask "why not also T48 and Churchills when it is the same gun?" and they would be right. If we buff all variants, that would be one more reason to take away range advantage from T48 (which will make it useless again) and Churchills won't be "strong armor but crappy gun" anymore but more of a "strong armor and relatively good gun". I think that kwok is right that the problem is not in 6pounders but with the usefulness of medium tanks in the Axis meta and changing the whole meta just because of 6 pounders is not a good idea because that would bring tons of balance issues which would take months to balance again.

I fully agree. I'd say that if you buffed 6pdr, the game balance would be harmed.

[Devilfish]

How I see it, it's just axis habit to use only vehicles with high chance of deflecting AT, rethinking how one play axis and adapting a little bit doesn't ruin balance, imo.
But anyway, I didn't mean to simply make a 6pdr a reliable weapon (realism) against everything up to tiger. Just to revise it a little bit. Check it's values all across the board and tweak it a bit. Like there is a huge gap between reliably penetrating and reliably bouncing, doesn't have to be black or white. Especially stubby Pz4s, they bounce reliably.

Btw, I think the main reason why players don't use F2 is because it has no top mg42. Thus doing close to 0 damage to inf. While H/J shreds inf like panther.

[MarKr]

How I see it, it's just axis habit to use only vehicles with high chance of deflecting AT

And I think that Axis acquired this habit over time, when Axis had most stuff expensive and thus couldn't afford to waste resources on something that is easily lost. There were some price changes but hard to say if the changes were enough to change the attitude.

I didn't mean to simply make a 6pdr a reliable weapon (realism) against everything up to tiger. Just to revise it a little bit.

But what is "a little bit"? 5%? That is too low to be noticable. 20%? That is too much. 10%? Some people will tell you with "100% certainty" that nothing changed while others will tell you that they definitely feel the difference. You can never get everyone happy

Btw, I think the main reason why players don't use F2 is because it has no top mg42. Thus doing close to 0 damage to inf. While H/J shreds inf like panther.

Maybe but that is what mixing units is for. You bring infantry, that protects tank from opponent's infantry while tank protects infantry around from vehicles. This is another thing that Axis are used to - use whatever can fight more or less on its own. PIV H/J has Top MG, so relies less on protection from infantry so it is easier to use. F2 has no top MG, so it is "crap" because you need to support it. Panthers - G has full rotating MG and it is the "best" (well, yeah, the periscope gives it accuracy buff too but it is not like Panthers usually miss very often anyway). Luft panther has no Top MG so it is crap...though it has same HP, same gun, same armor.
Anyway F2 gets in next patch ability that let's it fire smoke screen (like panthers can) so it will be more useful for advancing with infantry but it will be also able to use it for retreat. Now, when HE shot actually works it can easily wipe out half a squad or even whole squad in one shot (depending on their formation/ positioning). Still don't think that people will start using it more than before but now it has more potential.

[Wer525]

Well, a single shot He ability could be added to 6pdr, at least on churchill. It would not alter AT capability and would give the 6pdr a little boost. With the single shot he now being effective it should give churchill AT some help against infantry, making it similar to sherman 76. The shot would be as powerfull as the He shell fired by Puma.

[Panzerblitz1]

Im not for it, the Churchill is already a big thick beast in the battlefield, and don't need any boost at all, the 6pdr's AT guns will stay as they are, they performing well in game and will not be boosted due to heavy balance breaking.
Use MG's or infantry troops to support your AT guns against enemy infantry.

[Devilfish]

6pdr is far from performing well, ok hardcore balance breaking, I get it.

Use MG's or infantry troops to support your AT guns against enemy infantry.

Tell that to 37mm pak 36 .

[Panzerblitz1]

Pak36 isn't really the same thing versus medium tanks compare to 6pdr's capabilities either... if it was only me, i would completely removed this HE round, first because it didn't exist in real life, second, paks are anti vehicles units, not anti infantry devices...

Same for the stuarts HE, this is a nonsense too, such thing didn't exist in RL too, but hey, balance speak first.

[Devilfish]

I'd remove it too. One cheap unit smashes all, too easy.