Suggestions for AI behavior

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MarKr
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Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby MarKr » 12 Jan 2017, 21:37

Hello guys,

this topic will mostly be interesting for comp stomp players. We got in contact with the author of the AI we implemented in the first beta and he agreed to adjust the AI for BK mod.

As far as I know (from him), it is possible to set AI behavior (e.g. build orders etc.) for specific AI difficulty levels, for specific doctrines and also for specific map sizes.

Do you have any suggestions on how the AI should act? Which units it should build more/less how to combine them etc.?

I cannot promise every suggestion will be implemented (or even possible to do) but we will consider what you write here.
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kwok
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby kwok » 13 Jan 2017, 02:41

Just out of curiousity, how granular and sequential do the suggestions need to be? Does this mean lay out the entire build order? How can we incorporate randomness?

I'm really interested in designing some type of game AI. It might be fun to try to replicate some "PvP" flow or game challenges.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Redgaarden » 13 Jan 2017, 12:16

can he change AI for when players leaves?

If so Then I would like the "Cap Flag" would just make the AI random again. Instead of only being able to direct the entire AI army with "Attack Flag"
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

Sonsalt
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Sonsalt » 15 Jan 2017, 13:03

Greetings,




let me give you guys a bit of info on my mod, what I changed and what is possible:

General idea:

All my changes are based around the normal AI. The idea is to make it more human like, use a wider variety of vehicles and make better use of each doctrine. In general every aspect of the AI can be adjusted, however the more detailed the changes are the more script-work needs to be done. My initial work focused on my Submod, thus the AI might behave quite differently with BK only, since the economics are quite different. (Less MP income, less upkeep, faster build times etc.)

Currently I am working on adjusting the AI for BK only. Within the next days I should have an initial version ready for you guys to test.


What I changed:

1. Buildorder
Each faction AI now has a specific build-order, customized for the specific tech tree. This improves the early game play and ensures that the AI builds the right units.


2. Secure Outposts
The AI now upgrades many more resource points and much quicker. Depending on the Skill, the AI will start upgrading after capturing 2-4 resource points. The emphasis is on Fuel -> Ammunition -> Manpower. While the AI will try to secure the points closest to his base first, there is some randomization too.

The Great thing about this is that the AI needs less cheating :D

3. More defenses
While originally the AI only build few and limited bunkers, it now use full range of BK buildings and emplacements. I noticed that especially for AXIS defensive doctrine and US Airborne, you can expect a lot of AA.

Even though I also improved the way the AI builds Artillery, I am still looking into how I can make the AI not to use the smoke barrage option, but instead the normal barrage. Tough nut to crack.

4. Squad AI improvements
The AI should now make better use of buildings and also Squad AI tactics. You will notice this in the way the AI seeks cover and remains there...
You should also notice now that the AI often moves with several units together. Tanks and infantry etc.

Another improvement is that the AI now retreats upon loosing 60% of a section. This way the AI more often is able to maintain the section by regrouping and replacing.... It is always easier to replace units within a section than having to rebuild it.

Later down the road I have plans for the AI to build trenches, barbwire etc, but for that I probably have to work on the maps it self.

5. Better resourcing
The AI should now make better use of it's resources. For this I have improved the state analysis and the strategy unit purchase settings.

6. More emphasis on Infantry
By improving the strategy build order, I have been tweaking the desire for the AI to build more infantry. With this I placed more priority on Mortar, Advanced units and AT.

Still more tweaking to be done.


Goals:

For game-play reasons I divided the AI into three sections, early, mid and late game. Within the early game I want the AI to focus on expanding control, avoid contact and capture/secure points. For the Midgame the AI should try to flank as much as possible, attack behind enemy lines and disrupt reinforcements, while gaining more control. The late game should focus on using heavy weapons to destroy defenses, overpower the opponent and destroying the base.

Unlike for SC2 CoH does not allow for an early game victory due to the heavy base defenses. Thus It appears to be the better approach to assert enough control over the map to overwhelm in the late game.

How can you help?

1. What are your prefered build orders for the early game, for each tech tree and faction ?

2. Test play my AI on various maps and give me your feedback.
- Maps heavily influence the AI, due to their AI markers.... On some the AI has good path finding, others it barely builds anything (will share some preferred maps later)
- Play 1v1 using easy/normal... AI


Later ideas:
- allow the AI to build mines
- Better use of Artillery
- More reactionary AI tactics


This should be enough for now,

Stay tuned for more :)

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Tiger1996
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Jan 2017, 14:55

Martin Steinke, that's u there? ^^

Great to see you here... You are definitely a "win" ;)
I am not a comp stomper, as I am mostly a pvp player of course.. but i think I can still provide some help :)

1. What are your prefered build orders for the early game, for each tech tree and faction ?

I would first start by asking if it's actually possible to allow the AI building SP, KT, JT, and generally more super heavy tanks? I rarely see one.

Briefly answering your question though... Then I would suggest the following:-
WH Blitz doc;
They should spam less Pak36 and Mg42 teams at start, i almost never see Stormtroops or Stuh.. they get many Tigers, which is not bad... But I think they should also bring some Pz.IV in late game, together with few Tigers. They should use the Tiger Ace as well, if possible!
---------------------------------------------
WH Def doc;
I have never seen the Elephant, but not sure.. might be wrong though! They should build more 88s and bunkers indeed, and they should use the Stupa as well.
---------------------------------------------
WH Terror doc;
I never see King Tigers or Panthers... Always Tigers, and only Tigers! SturmTiger is added to the game now, so.. I guess it would be cool if the Ai could use it! More Grenadiers upgraded with MP44s and walking Stukas half-tracks as well.
===============================
USA Airborne doc;
More airstrikes... But i think they do this already atm! They are also using the calliope jeep too often.. which is not bad, but I think they should deploy more paratroopers maybe, rather than spamming tanks all the day!
--------------------------------------------
USA inf doc;
Off-map arty strikes, emplacements and Sherman Jumbo... And more infantry.
--------------------------------------------
USA Armor doc;
I never can see the SP (Super Pershing) by the Ai. But that's all about Armor doc i think! As I believe it's currently working fine.
===============================
CW RA doc;
LESS Priests... The Ai is obviously too stupid to control them! Ai sends his Priests to the front line where they could be easily killed. More off-map, more tanks and average amount of 17pdr and perhaps more inf!
-------------------------------------------
CW RE doc;
More and more Churchills... More emplacements, and more Cromwell and Comet tanks.. i also never see the crocodile Churchill which is an off-map call in unit.
------------------------------------------
CW RAF doc;
More airstrikes apparently, more specialized commandos and Wolverine tank destroyers (Achilles) also more Fireflies.
==============================
PE Luft doc;
Should use more paratroopers... More airstrikes (you probably know that there are new Luft airstrikes being added on the next patch) and more Panther.Ds and SD2 butterfly bombs, maybe some flak 88s as well.
------------------------------------------
PE TH doc;
Obviously more Hetzers, more JagdPanther, and JagdTiger... More Pz.IV.H too.
------------------------------------------
PE SE doc;
Again LESS Wespe and Hummels... Ai is too stupid to control arty units apparently! More Pz.III (they are being added on the next patch) and more flame grenades with infantry and sector arty barrage.


That's all I could think of, for now... Hope I have helped in some ways! ;)

Sonsalt
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Sonsalt » 15 Jan 2017, 15:19

@tiger1996

Thanks for your input, I will update the build-orders accordingly. I can also make the AI build or not build a specific unit, aswell as how many it should produce.

Already I am forcing the AI to build more rangers etc.

If you think that Hummels etc. are not good for the AI I will have him not build it. However there are also ways to prevent the AI from pushing with those units. This might take some tweaking though.

Sonsalt
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Sonsalt » 16 Jan 2017, 04:27

One more finding, I noticed that often the AI does not build advanced tanks as they are not unlocked. I can remove this for the AI but it might cause it to produce them rather early on :P

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Tiger1996 » 16 Jan 2017, 04:30

Well, I guess there is no problem to give it a try ^^

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 17 Jan 2017, 18:58

Sonsalt wrote:One more finding, I noticed that often the AI does not build advanced tanks as they are not unlocked. I can remove this for the AI but it might cause it to produce them rather early on :P


Maybe reduce those unlock tank upgrades at 1 unit max and spawn able in mid late game? you're talking about the buildborder right?
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Sonsalt
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Sonsalt » 18 Jan 2017, 19:53

Will finalize the initial AI version by tomorrow I hope.

The initial goal is to get my AI fully working with the BK. Already, I have taken Tiger's advice and adjusted several build orders.

out5488
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby out5488 » 17 May 2017, 00:36

Sonsalt wrote:Will finalize the initial AI version by tomorrow I hope.

The initial goal is to get my AI fully working with the BK. Already, I have taken Tiger's advice and adjusted several build orders.

Where can I find this mod?

JimQwilleran
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby JimQwilleran » 17 May 2017, 00:44

out5488 wrote:Where can I find this mod?

It has already been implemented in bk a few patches ago, hasn't it?

out5488
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby out5488 » 17 May 2017, 00:59

JimQwilleran wrote:
out5488 wrote:Where can I find this mod?

It has already been implemented in bk a few patches ago, hasn't it?

That's good to hear.
In this week, I have played with expert SE AI on map Steel and Rails, AI call in 2 Hummel and had never fired even one shot, just stay in the base for nearly one hour till it's be destroyed.

Since I saw Tiger1996 earlier post in this thread said AI can't use artillery efficiently, I though it may be addressed by Sonsalt's AI mod.
AI really don't know how to use artillery, especially for SPG. Aritillery doc AI is much easier to be beaten than non-aritillery doc AI such as Blitzkrieg.

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Jalis
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 17 May 2017, 02:07

AI can use arty, including humel and such. I made it works, but Players feels back was rather negatives. For what I know, Solo / multicoop players prefere to be on the good side of the gun, and have arty as a monopole.

Basically AI have also no scruples with base bombing. It tend to be irrating most players even they officially ask for more challenge.
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speeddemon02
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby speeddemon02 » 17 May 2017, 03:21

I somehow missed this topic the first go round. I would like to see the AI be able to recrew equipment. Never seen them take their base defense over once the crew is killed. Same goes for HMG, mortar, etc. CW seems to have issues placing their vehicles sometimes. It is either in the perfect place or not placed at all. I rarely see any heavy units or units equal to that as they keep burning their resources on other stuff in hopes for overrun. Mines, sandbags, barbedwire, emplacements, etc they dont seem to do well with or at all. Terror they love walking stuka and US AB loves the rocket jeep and after firing, suicide rushes. AI is always moving too and never setups ambush spots up. Pathing issues, where if they have no way to get to your base like over a river or if a massive defense was built and they cant get across they seem to give up. I've also seen where they are on a massive push and are winning, but seem to run out of steam just before the base. All AI have the same objectives and work towards it at the same time, again the overrun. It works somewhat well on the large and extra large maps, but its being expected and right from the start being countered.
Last edited by speeddemon02 on 17 May 2017, 06:46, edited 1 time in total.

out5488
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby out5488 » 17 May 2017, 03:37

Jalis wrote:AI can use arty, including humel and such. I made it works, but Players feels back was rather negatives. For what I know, Solo / multicoop players prefere to be on the good side of the gun, and have arty as a monopole.

Basically AI have also no scruples with base bombing. It tend to be irrating most players even they officially ask for more challenge.


I just checked the replay, and find why SE AI is weak even in expert:
1. Panzer III Ausf.N is the only armored vechicle AI produced from the first to the end.(whole battle takes 1 hrs and 20 mins), I know it's not easy to make AI to judge what unit should be produced based on different scenarios, but if AI have to choose only one type tank to produce, I think Panzer IV Ausf.F2 is better choice for SE since it's more all-round than Panzer III to handle different situation, and with the same cost.

2. AI tried to fire 210mm Nebelwerfer many many times, but only one time succesfully because of the annoying bug: artilery need to fire from flat ground or it will fail in high possibility and still cost your ammo. It's a powerful weapon and this bug siginificantly impact SE AI performance.

3. AI call in two Hummel in 38 and 42 mins, but did't tried to fire one shot till be destroyed at1hrs20min even with sufficient ammo (600) (Nebelwerfer tried to fire but failed), Hummel just stay in base and even don't move, AI seems like forget Hummel at all.

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Jalis
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 17 May 2017, 05:10

speeddemon02 wrote: I would like to see the AI be able to recrew equipment.


It was part of infantry only I released last Christmas, But like People have usually very few interest on infantry only, nobody noticed it, I presume.

out5488 wrote: 3. AI call in two Hummel in 38 and 42 mins, but did't tried to fire one shot till be destroyed at1hrs20min even with sufficient ammo (600) (Nebelwerfer tried to fire but failed), Hummel just stay in base and even don't move, AI seems like forget Hummel at all.


If I was able to obtain result with Hummel and wespe, nebelwefer are an other matter I wasnt able to fix. This kind of weapons need flat terrain to fire rockets. To often nebelwefer deserve their name too much, and makes only smoke without launching rockets. I even dont dont If it is possible to test terrain before to fire. I m very septic about that. on flat maps their is few problem with nebelwefers, but all maps are not like that.

out5488
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby out5488 » 17 May 2017, 06:11

Jalis wrote:
speeddemon02 wrote: I would like to see the AI be able to recrew equipment.


It was part of infantry only I released last Christmas, But like People have usually very few interest on infantry only, nobody noticed it, I presume.

out5488 wrote: 3. AI call in two Hummel in 38 and 42 mins, but did't tried to fire one shot till be destroyed at1hrs20min even with sufficient ammo (600) (Nebelwerfer tried to fire but failed), Hummel just stay in base and even don't move, AI seems like forget Hummel at all.


If I was able to obtain result with Hummel and wespe, nebelwefer are an other matter I wasnt able to fix. This kind of weapons need flat terrain to fire rockets. To often nebelwefer deserve their name too much, and makes only smoke without launching rockets. I even dont dont If it is possible to test terrain before to fire. I m very septic about that. on flat maps their is few problem with nebelwefers, but all maps are not like that.


Thanks for your effort, do you mean the AI recrew function only avaliable in infantry only mode?
In non-infantry only mode, For field emplacement, I'm not sure about recrew, but for base AA emplacement, I had never seen AI recrew it.

speeddemon02
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby speeddemon02 » 17 May 2017, 06:45

i play some infantry only, at least once a week. Say an HMG team dies it will sit there and not be recrewed by say the engineers nearby.

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Jalis
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 17 May 2017, 10:16

Jalis wrote:
It was part of infantry only I released last Christmas, But like People have usually very few interest on infantry only, nobody noticed it, I presume.



I didnt spoke about bk mod inf only option, but about an home made standalone I released, a let available for download during a month, last Christmas.

Things like recrewing, whatever it could be a hmg, an mgnest or an 88 position, is not something unusual. At least in last version of Vcoh it is standard. I dont know if it is absent from bk because it is based on an old vcoh version, or if it had been removed. What I can say, is bk is a pvp game, and dont need AI recrew because even AI is not needed in some extend.

Some works have been done on bk AI however, but it is a patchwork of clever and abberante/incompprensible things.

Snowstorm
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Snowstorm » 06 Jun 2017, 23:00

Sonsalt wrote:Greetings,




let me give you guys a bit of info on my mod, what I changed and what is possible:

General idea:

All my changes are based around the normal AI. The idea is to make it more human like, use a wider variety of vehicles and make better use of each doctrine. In general every aspect of the AI can be adjusted, however the more detailed the changes are the more script-work needs to be done. My initial work focused on my Submod, thus the AI might behave quite differently with BK only, since the economics are quite different. (Less MP income, less upkeep, faster build times etc.)

Currently I am working on adjusting the AI for BK only. Within the next days I should have an initial version ready for you guys to test.


What I changed:

1. Buildorder
Each faction AI now has a specific build-order, customized for the specific tech tree. This improves the early game play and ensures that the AI builds the right units.


2. Secure Outposts
The AI now upgrades many more resource points and much quicker. Depending on the Skill, the AI will start upgrading after capturing 2-4 resource points. The emphasis is on Fuel -> Ammunition -> Manpower. While the AI will try to secure the points closest to his base first, there is some randomization too.

The Great thing about this is that the AI needs less cheating :D

3. More defenses
While originally the AI only build few and limited bunkers, it now use full range of BK buildings and emplacements. I noticed that especially for AXIS defensive doctrine and US Airborne, you can expect a lot of AA.

Even though I also improved the way the AI builds Artillery, I am still looking into how I can make the AI not to use the smoke barrage option, but instead the normal barrage. Tough nut to crack.

4. Squad AI improvements
The AI should now make better use of buildings and also Squad AI tactics. You will notice this in the way the AI seeks cover and remains there...
You should also notice now that the AI often moves with several units together. Tanks and infantry etc.

Another improvement is that the AI now retreats upon loosing 60% of a section. This way the AI more often is able to maintain the section by regrouping and replacing.... It is always easier to replace units within a section than having to rebuild it.

Later down the road I have plans for the AI to build trenches, barbwire etc, but for that I probably have to work on the maps it self.

5. Better resourcing
The AI should now make better use of it's resources. For this I have improved the state analysis and the strategy unit purchase settings.

6. More emphasis on Infantry
By improving the strategy build order, I have been tweaking the desire for the AI to build more infantry. With this I placed more priority on Mortar, Advanced units and AT.

Still more tweaking to be done.


Goals:

For game-play reasons I divided the AI into three sections, early, mid and late game. Within the early game I want the AI to focus on expanding control, avoid contact and capture/secure points. For the Midgame the AI should try to flank as much as possible, attack behind enemy lines and disrupt reinforcements, while gaining more control. The late game should focus on using heavy weapons to destroy defenses, overpower the opponent and destroying the base.

Unlike for SC2 CoH does not allow for an early game victory due to the heavy base defenses. Thus It appears to be the better approach to assert enough control over the map to overwhelm in the late game.

How can you help?

1. What are your prefered build orders for the early game, for each tech tree and faction ?

2. Test play my AI on various maps and give me your feedback.
- Maps heavily influence the AI, due to their AI markers.... On some the AI has good path finding, others it barely builds anything (will share some preferred maps later)
- Play 1v1 using easy/normal... AI


Later ideas:
- allow the AI to build mines
- Better use of Artillery
- More reactionary AI tactics


This should be enough for now,

Stay tuned for more :)


I create maps for my group of players, and I was wondering if you could enlighten me a bit on how the AI markers work on maps? I would love to be able to use them, but as of now I don't know how they function. This knowledge would help me to make compstomp maps as well.

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Medic Truck
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Medic Truck » 15 Jun 2017, 19:37

Hi.

The AI is pretty good. But, one annoying thing about the AI is they hit on the stealth unit as if they see it. Only the long range ones like mortars do this. So, it kinda is annoying.

I am new to this mod but loving it. It is terrifying out there in the field as caution is required extremely for every step but I am getting used to it. Cheers for the work.

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 15 Jun 2017, 19:56

Medic Truck wrote:Hi.

The AI is pretty good. But, one annoying thing about the AI is they hit on the stealth unit as if they see it. Only the long range ones like mortars do this. So, it kinda is annoying.

I am new to this mod but loving it. It is terrifying out there in the field as caution is required extremely for every step but I am getting used to it. Cheers for the work.


Blitzkrieg can be scary sometimes ;) its intended :D
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Medic Truck
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Medic Truck » 16 Jun 2017, 14:55

Hi Panzerblitz1,

I am learning to understand how to play coming from vanilla COH. Regarding the AI, I observed that the Jeep/Bike came exactly to the stealth recon again and killed it. Is there a way to not hit the stealth unit unless of course hit by mortar or artillery not meant for them?

Also, in the Normal AI, I saw today a Tiger tank was hiding in the corner while the US tanks were pounding their base. It was going towards the parts of the maps where there were none. But, actually the tank was needed to defend the base and pick the base tanks one by one. It could be a chance to make a comeback. Also, the tank was firing on the infantries more than it should be firing the Shermans and Tank Destroyers.

Having said that, I am loving this mod. I am extremely thrilled when I execute a strategy right. Very Rewarding but very destroying. Which immediately makes me learn to use combined arms tactics and not rush.

Just few words of suggestions for AI and appreciation for the mod.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 16 Jun 2017, 20:46

Recon units like the kettenkrad and jeeps are seing all recon units when nearby.
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