LeiG 18 vs Pack 37

[EstadoMayor]

Hello,

It´s just to suggest to whom may concern about the possibility to set up the LeiG 18 as a reward unit of the Pack 37 instead of the Pack 38.

The LeiG18 is not being used because it´s very hard manage the early game without the Pack 38 due to the shermans, Stuarts, M16A1 halftrucks and so on, that´s why the LeiG 18 is almost invisible in the games.

Then my suggestion could be set it up as a reward of the pack 37: the power of the LeiG 18 is less than the Pack 37 against light armoured or not armoured targets, better against infantry but more expensive than Pack 37 too, both are useless for armoured targets (Stuarts, Shermans) and if you consider that it shouldn´t be a too early weapon we could have it available after the first upgrade of the headquarter.

I think it could be a good opportunity to see this little gun in the battlefields and give to the german armies fresh options of combat, not always the same Pack 37, then Pack 38, then Pack 40 or tanks.

[JimQwilleran]

I like this idea! It's true, I can see leig hardly in 1 of 100 plays. That change would make early game more interesting for sure. Maybe we could test it the next beta?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yup, I definitely like this idea as well. EstadoMayor actually wanted to suggest this a while ago.. when he also talked with me about it on Steam... As I told him why not to register to the forum and propose it!

The 50mm Pak38 is a very important counter to early Shermans; specifically after recently adding aim time to handheld AT weapons... As I believe it would be then even more important than already it is. So, I guess it would be really nice to see the LeiG.18 as a reward of the 37mm Pak36 on the other hand

[Leonida [525]]

Anything that can make the leig18 more used, for me its good

[sgtToni95]

I think making it a reward unit for pak36 could be quite dangerous since you'd take away WM's very early at, which is not really necessary, but taking out jeep with only swimm and inf requires quite good micro skills, and pak 36 could be a bit useful even against HTs. I think leig18 is in some ways comparable to RAF's field gun, so maybe making it available together with pak38, but limiting it to a single doc, could be a solution too. Keep in mind that it can camo and it often kills 5/6 squad members from decent distance, so making it available too early, expecially considering how important inf is in very early stages of the game, could make it even too used.

[Warhawks97]

The leig18 is pretty deadly vs inf. It can whipe infantry squads quite well, esspecially the early game inf. So it might whipe two squads in two shots which for the early game means "gg". And it also oneshots jeeps+ provides arty.

So its a jeep killer (and also kills HT´s in two shots), "anti inf pak" and arty tool for the opening game. Thats too much i think.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I didnt find much use for this unit because it have veeeeeeery narrow aiming angle, might work only in defending streets.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think making it a reward unit for pak36 could be quite dangerous since you'd take away WM's very early at, which is not really necessary, but taking out jeep with only swimm and inf requires quite good micro skills, and pak 36 could be a bit useful even against HTs. I think leig18 is in some ways comparable to RAF's field gun, so maybe making it available together with pak38, but limiting it to a single doc, could be a solution too. Keep in mind that it can camo and it often kills 5/6 squad members from decent distance, so making it available too early, expecially considering how important inf is in very early stages of the game, could make it even too used.

Becoming no longer a reward unit while being available together with the Pak38 but at the cost of limiting it to only 1 doc? Hmm, sounds good actually...
But if it would be restricted to a single one doctrine, then I guess it should be in Blitz doc.. I mean; Terror has Nebels, and Def doc already has howitzers! So, ya... Blitz is probably the most appropriate I think.

[JimQwilleran]

Guys, it won't be available too early. Did u read what he wrote at all?

Then my suggestion could be set it up as a reward of the pack 37: the power of the LeiG 18 is less than the Pack 37 against light armoured or not armoured targets, better against infantry but more expensive than Pack 37 too, both are useless for armoured targets (Stuarts, Shermans) and if you consider that it shouldn´t be a too early weapon we could have it available after the first upgrade of the headquarter.

It has bigger firepower than small pak, but has a narrow aiming angle --- trade. Better vs inf - easier to flank. Also even if it can kill HT in 2 shots (I'd say 3 shots), it has longer reloading time than the small pak.

Omg and don't even start about "single doc restrictions".. Restrict this, restrict that! Surely, restricting is so much fun!

[sgtToni95]

First upgrade of headquarter comes quite soon i think, and doesn't even need to retreat pios at HQ to build anything as US has to do. Tho i think making it a reward unit for pak36 is not the case.. boys will become available earlier in next patch to make all docs ATs/cars available almost at the same time, don't think delaying it for WH would be such a wise option, and making the leig18 a reward unit would make it even less used i think cause you'll almost have to "give up" the very early stage of the game just to an enemy jeep+pak (i know it still depends on how one micros his inf tho).
About early availability i'd even say that RAF Field Gun (i know i should't compare units like this but they have more or less the same purpose and price) becomes available after having captain (so some fuel expenses added to inf truck's ones) and a 450MP Glider, this is why, imo, restricting it instead of making it a reward unit would cause less problems to balance.

[MarKr]

Personally the biggest issue I see with this change is that Axis would get a very early arty unit... it is not god-knows-how strong arty but still it is there. Also it is questionable how often it would be used because you would give up AT power for Anti-infantry power...though that is the point of reward vehicles - giving up something for something else.

[kwok]

I used it lately a lot, I wonder if that's what made this topic come up just recently.

I'm with markr in this one, it's a great tradeoff decision that I enjoy talking out with my teammates before a game. Making so available kinda takes away the tradeoff decision. Other than that though, I'll adapt to whatever change. This is pretty minor I think.

[Warhawks97]

The gun itself shreds inf better than the brits "counterpart".

Its good vs inf doc or when enemie inf rushes your units. Put it behind a tank and incoming inf gets some heavy punishment.

It also kills jeep with a single shot and can use arty barrage (brits early emplacments may become useless when that gun comes that early.

And no to restrictions....we almost have restrictions on everything already.


I dont think the gun is bad. Just the pak 38 is almost must have for WH mid stage. I would maybe give it as reward to 75 mm pak 40? Personally i rarley used heavy pak as axis. For shermans i had 50 mm pak and stugs and against heavier stuff i got schrecks and panthers.

I consider the 50 mm as more important to WH as the 75 mm pak. So maybe the 75 mm leig18 can replace the 75 mm pak instead.

[kwok]

Yeah. Biggest reason I don't use the Leig is because of how important 50mm is. Unless I have a good teammate. But if I get that leig then I agree with Warhawks. That thing destroys more than the field gun from raf. Just no one knows about it. But I guess the secret is out now, and it's gonna get nerfed...

[MarKr]

I also noticed that it is surprisingly effective against emplacements...

Isn't the 75mm PaK40 already replacable by 75mm AT Halftracks?

[Krieger Blitzer]

I also noticed that it is surprisingly effective against emplacements...

It's normal I think...

The gun itself shreds inf better than the brits "counterpart".

That thing destroys more than the field gun from raf.

Probably, but keep in mind that the RAF one has such a MUCH wider range compared to the LeiG.18 on the other hand; almost just like the 17p.

About replacing it with Pak40, i totally agree.. simply the 75mm Half-track can be no longer a reward unit! And it could also still get +5 more range like we already discussed about it with MarKr before... If Wolf is now fine with it.

[kwok]

Yeah.... it's really good against the alleged OP emplacements... it's a shame a person doesn't play the mod caught on after I hinted at it a few times on the last thread about emplacements. I was hoping people wouldn't figure it out so I can keep using the leig without people complaining about balance. Darn you markr for your def doc nerfs.

All right I'm done being quiet.
Can we not touch the leig? I've been killing it with the leig, averaging getting to vet 2 before it gets noticed. That sucker can camo and shoot well past its vision. It's got the range of a damn AP pak PLUS the ability to barrage. I LOVE how we use to complain about raf field guns but left this untouched. Like I said, the only tradeoff/counter to this is the early Sherman. But, if you take this reward unit and choose the non-reward puma, push early T3 you can still outrun early shermans while keeping this anti infantry weapon of mass destruction. This is DEFINITELY not a t1 weapon. My fear is we are going to put it T1 and then people are going to complain, and itself of putting back to where it belongs we are just gonna nerf it. It'll be like zero decision making for axis games. Axis already has so many t1 anti-inf options. Mg42, HE shot for pak, schwimm or bike. I'd rather not risk having this unit nerfed down.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Who ever said that it would be nerfed? And who asked that it should be available in tier 1?
I think the discussion here is all about 1 thing apparently, it's about whether the LeiG should be a reward unit or not.. nothing more or less... And even when Estado suggested to allow it as a replacement of the 37mm Pak36 he obviously stated so while clearly mentioning that it should be still available just about the same time as currently! So, just to make things clear here... The availability time of this unit should never be touched for sure.. here it's just a matter of which unit exactly the LeiG.18 should be a reward of.

Most appropriate replacement, is perhaps the Pak40 I think...

[kwok]

The 37mm pak is the T1 AT for WM... is the plan to make it so axis doesn't have T1 AT or to make it so the leig is available for T1? It's one or the other and one seems a lot more likely than another.
And in terms of nerfs, making it available for one doc i consider a nerf. On top of that, it's my fear by next patch people will scream for a nerf because people start realizing how good it is. Whenever some thing new happens, a nerf follows. That's just the trend of BK and my fear will happen if this is tweaked.

[Krieger Blitzer]

is the plan to make it so axis doesn't have T1 AT or to make it so the leig is available for T1?

Well, there are 3 different suggestions now regarding this issue...

1) LeiG.18 reward for Pak36. So yes, WH won't have tier 1 37mm AT guns anymore... However; the LeiG would be still available the same time as currently for sure.

2) LeiG.18 not reward unit at all... Available in Blitz doc only!

3) LeiG.18 reward for Pak40, therefore the 75mm Half-track would not be a reward unit anymore... But always available by default.

So, apparently according to all the 3 suggestions.. the LeiG.18 doubtlessly would be still available the exact same time as currently... Absolutely no changes to its availability time at all.
I would personally pick the 3rd suggestion though

[kwok]

Why not just as is left available for all and replace for the 50mm? What is true for the 75mm where it is replaceable that isn't true for the 50mm?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Why it should be replacing Pak40 but not Pak38 u mean?

Well;

The LeiG18 is not being used because it´s very hard manage the early game without the Pack 38 due to the shermans, Stuarts, M16A1 halftrucks and so on, that´s why the LeiG 18 is almost invisible in the games.

The 50mm Pak38 is a very important counter to early Shermans; specifically after recently adding aim time to handheld AT weapons... As I believe it would be then even more important than already it is.

I like this idea! It's true, I can see leig hardly in 1 of 100 plays. That change would make early game more interesting for sure. Maybe we could test it the next beta?

So, I guess it's because the Pak38 is very important... And after adding aim time to handheld AT weapons; it will be even more important. Therefore the LeiG isn't used, or just so rarely!

[kwok]

Isn't the 75 equally important countering larger than shermans?

[Krieger Blitzer]

But without the Pak38, u may not even survive to what is beyond Shermans... You would be dead by Shermans already!
Also, according to the 3rd suggestion.. WH would still have the 75mm half-track which is Pak40 but costs fuel though.

[sgtToni95]

I agree with Kwok the only advandtage Field gun has is gun arc. Inf sees it => flank, leig18 can camo and barrage which means indirect fire with longer range and they have exactly the same price with Field Gun available later, keeping in mind WH already has standard 80mm mortars which can be quite effective as indirect fire as well. Making it a reward unit for 75mm pak and still having 75mmHT would simply have no tradeoff, making WH even more well rounded than it is now.