Arty

Do you have a balancing problem or do you want to make a suggestion for the game? You are at the right place.
kwok
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Re: Arty

Post by kwok »

All right... you just always seem super suspicious to me because every time you use the :roll: icon or refer to something someone else said but literally say NOTHING about it as if you were hinting at something... drama happens. It's a pattern I noticed, so sorry for falsely accusing this time.

You can be right that a map can be balanced, but I don't think 1v1 maps should be called a BK map. A BK mod tip map implies that the devs recommend playing on this map. If devs are recommending playing on a 1v1 map, then they indirectly recommend playing 1v1s. This contradicts what they say.
While a lot of players DO play a lot of 1v1 games, that doesn't validate them for using it as a means of complaining about balance. Just because something is DONE a lot doesn't make it valid. Internet piracy is done frequently, that doesn't make it valid in determining laws and regulation in a society. Terms and agreements are hardly ever read, that doesn't mean if someone breaches contract they don't have to pay up something they signed.

As for "regardless of its size", I think there I have put up a lot of argument already as to why large maps are better. I also think most people agree small maps are more avoided than large maps. What's that map, St. Mer Dumont or something? It's relatively "balanced" in terms of symmetry but the mid to high level players avoid it for it's cheesy, limiting, formula encouraging traits. What I'm trying to get people to realize is most maps they play are STILL too small like st. mer dumont. On my other post, most people seem to agree with me with the only argument being that large maps can really slow down the game with less immediate action. But, my counter argument to that is should avoidance be an optional strategy as written in many war books? Is not this RTS simulating war? That's what makes Bk great, moving away from the arcadey low complexity style and something more thoughtful. Plus, that argument was brought up in the context where the player played a 1v1 in a 4v4 map... which wasn't what I was pitching for. Other than that, I haven't heard any direct counter arguments that what I said is wrong or even not correct (as in it's definitely a strong balance fixer and the right direction).

All I'm saying is, we have a chance of fixing a LOT of frequent balance complaints if we can actually collectively be brave enough to TRY something that has been mentioned to work by a few good players already. But it seems that a good majority are too afraid of losing their formula for winning and would rather just complain and lobby until their formula works.
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Arty

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

A BK mod tip map implies that the devs recommend playing on this map. If devs are recommending playing on a 1v1 map, then they indirectly recommend playing 1v1s. This contradicts what they say.
While a lot of players DO play a lot of 1v1 games, that doesn't validate them for using it as a means of complaining about balance. Just because something is DONE a lot doesn't make it valid. Internet piracy is done frequently, that doesn't make it valid in determining laws and regulation in a society. Terms and agreements are hardly ever read, that doesn't mean if someone breaches contract they don't have to pay up something they signed.

Yup, lots of things are done by a lot of people.. whereas it definitely doesn't mean that all those things are valid... You are right! But I kind of look differently to the "BK mod TIP" stamp. For me; it's more or less nothing rather than just an indicator that helps the player to easier differentiate which maps are exactly belonging to a whatever certain map-pack!
So, not every map included would automatically mean that the devs are recommending it... That's how I look into it ^^

I also think most people agree small maps are more avoided than large maps. What's that map, St. Mer Dumont or something? It's relatively "balanced" in terms of symmetry but the mid to high level players avoid it for it's cheesy, limiting, formula encouraging traits. What I'm trying to get people to realize is most maps they play are STILL too small like st. mer dumont.

And here, now I have to agree with you.. as I don't really like that map either to be honest. And btw, I also think that the bigger the map, the better it would be ;) But not too much big though.. because, Bk mod is not like Wikinger or the Spearhead mod for CoH2. Where the standard combat ranges are even significantly higher than in BK. Therefore I would say BK needs big maps.. but not huge ones... So yes; a 3vs3 game on a 4vs4 map might be great, but 1vs1 match on a 4vs4 map would be surely awful... Unless you are playing Wikinger or Spearhead.

All I'm saying is, we have a chance of fixing a LOT of frequent balance complaints if we can actually collectively be brave enough to TRY something that has been mentioned to work by a few good players already. But it seems that a good majority are too afraid of losing their formula for winning and would rather just complain and lobby until their formula works.

You are maybe correct, or maybe not... Not sure; but I don't think anyone is too afraid to do that.. just... When somebody is used to something, then it's a quite difficult process converting to something else while also becoming more used to it, but anyway :)

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MarKr
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Re: Arty

Post by MarKr »

To be honest I also support the idea with playing on bigger maps and I think kwok is right that people very often base their balance opinions on experience from 1vs1 and BK simply is not made for that because some doctrines have advantage over other doctrines and because of that we say that BK is recommended for 2v2 or 3v3 scenarios where the weak side of one doctrine in a team is filled by strong side of another doctrine in the team. Btw, Tiger, you remember when you wrote me in PM something like "in team games AB doc is fine but in 1vs1 it OP...maybe the AB should be nerfed a bit" - I believe this is exactly what kwok speaks about.

But about the bigger maps - covering a big map with emplacements takes way more resources and time than doing the same on smaller maps and gives you more time and space for maneuvering - you see strong defensive line? Well let's go around it :D. And if you can go around it, do you really need arty to destroy those defenses?
Planes are too strong? Well, yes and no. On small(er) maps the plane spends less time in the air before it fires which means that AAs have less time to shoot it down before it drops payload. On bigger maps it is the opposite and AAs can lower Airstrike effectiveness significantly... Pretty much what kwok said some time ago in his post where he explained the whole idea.
Keep in mind that his idea was to play e.g. 2v2 on 3v3 map or 3v3 on 4v4 map NOT 1v1 on 4v4.
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Panzerblitz1
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Re: Arty

Post by Panzerblitz1 »

Reminder.
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Re: Arty

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Btw, Tiger, you remember when you wrote me in PM something like "in team games AB doc is fine but in 1vs1 it OP...maybe the AB should be nerfed a bit" - I believe this is exactly what kwok speaks about.

When I said that, I didn't particularly mean that AB doc is REALLY that much OP btw... As I believe AB doc still has its own weaknesses. However; there are few certain aspects where I say the AB doc is actually quite over performing.. even when I mentioned about the Quad AA emplacements, I always pointed out already how annoying those things could be.. specifically on smaller maps such as Linden and Duclair. Which are not too small in fact... But the problem is; these emplacements are so resistant against artillery fire somehow. Although they are easily affordable! Pretty much the exact same problem of the inf doc 107mm mortar emplacements in the past...

But generally yes, I think the smaller the map.. the more devastating AB doc would be... However; like I already said before at one of my previous posts on a different topic, and I quote myself:-
Tiger1996 wrote:And, if you don't mind me mentioning about this again.. then the Quad AA emplacements are the most problematic thing in AB doc as for the moment... I believe something should be really done about it

So ya, the only REAL balance issue I see with AB doc now.. is actually the Quad AA emplacements :P More than anything else. They could even kill the Pz4.D incredibly fast like I already reported to you throughout my unlisted video via PM which is just hilarious :D

But about the bigger maps - covering a big map with emplacements takes way more resources and time than doing the same on smaller maps and gives you more time and space for maneuvering - you see strong defensive line? Well let's go around it :D. And if you can go around it, do you really need arty to destroy those defenses?

And this is also correct, but same goes for heavy Axis tanks btw... Most of them are too slow to move; in bigger maps they might become an easier target to flank. Perhaps unless they are veteran with abilities like the Accurate Long Range Shot.. and this actually reminds me with the chat of which I recently had with Endro about this, where he stated how much useless the Elephant is. Specifically on big maps... As he believes the Elephant should actually have such an ability! He was even planning to create a topic for it soon. And to be honest, I also believe the ALRS ability is definitely required for the Elephant. Since it's supposed to be a tank hunter that only shoots from such distance.. in short; I simply agreed with him. Keeping in mind that if the KT, the JagdPanther and even the Tiger1 with its shorter 88mm gun.. could all use such an ability, then the Elephant is the only remaining Axis tank with a long barreled 88 that can't use such an ability yet... But anyway, this is not our subject for now.
Planes are too strong? Well, yes and no. On small(er) maps the plane spends less time in the air before it fires which means that AAs have less time to shoot it down before it drops payload. On bigger maps it is the opposite and AAs can lower Airstrike effectiveness significantly... Pretty much what kwok said some time ago in his post where he explained the whole idea.
Keep in mind that his idea was to play e.g. 2v2 on 3v3 map or 3v3 on 4v4 map NOT 1v1 on 4v4.

At last, I totally understand Kwok's point of view. As I actually agree with him too... But this doesn't mean 1vs1 maps should never be added! Specifically as long as the maps are working good.. but yes; accusing balance based on the experience from 1vs1 games can lead to inaccurate accusations, yet... Sometimes it has to be kept into consideration! :)

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Re: Arty

Post by Sudatus »

Years ago when I first strteed playing BK, I mostly played 2v2 on 3v3 maps. The more xperienced players knew 2v2 maps too good. The only chance I had was to play on some relatively unknown map. (the mappack was just released...) I was very surprised how well you can manouver on bigger maps. I still pref this sort of play, instead of the lane gamplay of the older maps...

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Re: Arty

Post by kwok »

Pblitz, your reminder makes me even more resolved in trying to convince you and wolf to be more selective about the next mappack. I've circulated a couple maps among a few players, my own "mappack" with edits I made to fit the game and I think I was pretty successful. While my mappack doesn't follow the requirements wolf had earlier (I made edits without the authors' explicit consent), I do have a sense of making adjustments in general and can at least tweak the accepted maps for better BK balance.
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Re: Arty

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Pblitz, your reminder makes me even more resolved in trying to convince you and wolf to be more selective about the next mappack. I've circulated a couple maps among a few players, my own "mappack" with edits I made to fit the game and I think I was pretty successful. While my mappack doesn't follow the requirements wolf had earlier (I made edits without the authors' explicit consent), I do have a sense of making adjustments in general and can at least tweak the accepted maps for better BK balance.

You really have created a map-pack of your own? Why you never told us? :o And why not to publish it here? I am honestly interested. If you can help with something; then why not to participate more with the MapPack.v2 which Endro and Playmobill are still working hard for it! Do u have any other maps you would like to add other than the 2 ones you previously recommended?! I would be glad to know.

Hence, it's probably worth to mention that there is noway possible all players could agree on the exact same list of maps btw... Each has his own taste. Therefore it's not correct to exclude some maps (which are not bugged, balanced and working fine) just because somebody doesn't like them!
I believe it's also inconvenient if we would have many different versions for map-packs running around. We should concentrate all our efforts and agree on a single map-pack version.
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One thing I also forgot to mention about the Quad AAs. There are 2 versions, naked ones.. and emplacements... Naked ones are not a problem. It's fine if normal Engineers would be still able to build them! However, the problem is the emplaced versions. Either less HP, or to become available only via AB engineers; just wanted to clarify :)

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Re: Arty

Post by MarKr »

And this is also correct, but same goes for heavy Axis tanks btw... Most of them are too slow to move; in bigger maps they might become an easier target to flank. Perhaps unless they are veteran with abilities like the Accurate Long Range Shot..
Well, Axis heavy tanks might be slow but defensive line made of emplacements is static so slow is still better than immobile. And this is again the sort of thinking "I have Tiger/KT/Panther (whatever badass tank) so let's roll because I don't need anything else to win now" what unit (in such cases) do you have on your flanks? If there are units on flanks they will spot opponent's flanking attempts and you can turn your heavy tank to deal with the flankers.
and this actually reminds me with the chat of which I recently had with Endro about this, where he stated how much useless the Elephant is. Specifically on big maps... As he believes the Elephant should actually have such an ability!
Well, again...keeping units on flanks that protect it. Anyway if we ignore for a second that there would be a wave of requests to add it to Nashorns and JTs and what not too, how exactly will the ALRS help Elephant? It has strong frontal armor so it can take out units with its basic range but if the units start circling around, the ALRS won't have time to aim anyway because the Elephant will keep turning to aim.
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Re: Arty

Post by kwok »

I told some people about my maps for testing only and I made my own adjustments to the maps. Plus I never finished it, got too busy. I'll consider just putting it up on forums myself later maybe if I get time to work on them all. Most of my adjustments ahve just been removing the number of players on the map and maybe some slight capture point changes.
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Re: Arty

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

MarKr wrote:Anyway if we ignore for a second that there would be a wave of requests to add it to Nashorns and JTs and what not too, how exactly will the ALRS help Elephant? It has strong frontal armor so it can take out units with its basic range but if the units start circling around, the ALRS won't have time to aim anyway because the Elephant will keep turning to aim.

Hmm, I think Nashorn doesn't really need such an ability at all... Because it has ambush ability; which significantly increases the range already. And it's also quite cheap! About the JagdTiger, it shouldn't have it either.. because the 128mm gun is not as accurate as the 88s... The ALRS ability is something very specific only for 88s I think.

The idea was to give the ALRS to the Elephant instead of the stationary position ability in return, or to increase the range provided by the static position ability a little bit... Currently the range bonus after activating this ability for the Elephant is hardly noticeable.

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Re: Arty

Post by MarKr »

Currently the basic range of Elephant is 65. In static mode is easier to hit by 25% but it reloads 75% faster (EDIT: it is 0.75 modifier so it reloads 25% faster, sorry), gets sight bonus of +15 and weapon range bonus of +10 (so 75 in total) and you want to remove that and give it a 50 ammo shot with the range of 100 and cooldown time of 30 seconds...is that right?
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Re: Arty

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

+10 range bonus? Don't know why it always seemed much less.
But to your question.. the answer is; pretty much YES! However; 75 or 85 ammo, being available by default without any veterancy levels to be required. Which is an exception to the Elephant... And if nobody minds this, then it would be great.. and if u want; I guess Endro can also confirm his opinion soon regarding this matter too! But he probably doesn't post that much, since his English is not good enough unfortunately.

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Re: Arty

Post by kwok »

Stug has range bonus as well from rapid fire I think, doesn't it? I just slayed like four 76 shermans with one stug from a mile away in my last game.
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Re: Arty

Post by Lionelus »

Hello everybody

Concerning map size and gameplay, i agree with what have been told here. I would add some observatons to this thread, especially for some 3v3 maps.

All in all, it really depends on people. Some do enjoy the "lane" game you mentionned, Kwok. To be honest, I would even say that some people out there just can't manage bigger map. You know, narrow and small maps are easy to control. No surprise, no flanking, no infiltration, no airdrop behind the lines. A well-placed camoed AT, sniper, MG and arty you can create a slaughter zone and defensively lock 1/3 of the map. And your good for a 4 hours WWI style game. That what some people really enjoy, and I can understand that. And in these kind of game, Axis is so much better, because they simply got better tools, especially late game, be it defense or breaking through with heavy tanks.

My opinion might be subjective, as I'm an Ally player and I definitly need flanking and manoeuver to overcome Axis tanks and late infantry. Without flanking and manoeuver, playing Allies is very difficult. Small and narrow maps litterally nullify your Allies numeric advantage, as you can't effectively spread your troops in order to flank. What leads you to blopping, which are easily cut down by MG and obliterate by artillery. And I do understand that some people enjoy that. At least, in the multiplayer lobby, that would be nice to name the game " 4 HOURS WWI 3v3 GAME", so we all know what we are going into.

Here is a list of the worst 3v3 map to play (this map are good 2v2 though)
- 3v3 Wolfhese
- 3v3 Saint-Hilaire
- Road to Cherbourg
- LaFiere
- Red Ball Express

these maps are nightmarish. My brother (Devilroach) and I just avoid them as much as possible.

All the best and merry Christmas
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Warhawks97
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Re: Arty

Post by Warhawks97 »

Fully agree with kwok. The maps you mentioned are 5 or so? I think i got them a long time ago. They are really good and fun to play.


Also nice statment from Lionelus. Made the very same experience. And this is where it comes to "allis not arty in this and this and this doc" coz many of them rely on maneuvering rather than breakthrough or heavily punishing defenses with "fat guns". And this is what axis an do better in late game. Maybe arty doc has most powerfull arty but all in all axis have more heavy guns and tanks in more docs.

And the maps lionelus mentioned are those which are funnily mostly played. And many here in forum that complain about balance are mostly playing exactly these maps. And personally i also tried to prevent playing here. Red Ball and Wolfheze in particular. And all these maps are simply played with formulas.


Nothing more to add. I think Kwok simply nailed it again.

About Elephant and big tanks. I do think that heavy axis tanks (or lets say at least panther) have an advantage on larger maps. Simply the res income allows faster replacments. And the lower ammo income (many 1 vs 1 have pretty high ammo income in comparison to MP) makes it less likely that the tank is killed by "click to kill abilities". And covering flanks isnt hard with a number of cheap volks or pumas.

Also it doesnt need the long range shot as ability. It shall hold tank armies from a superior distance rather than sniping single tanks out. And thats what it does in stat mode.

The only thing i would suggest again is that tanks with 88 L/71 should have 70 basic range (like KT) but a range boost of only + 5 in stat mode (like KT). So it could effectively provide cover from distance without being bombed instantly (coz tanks just switched into stat mode are likely hit by arty)
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Re: Arty

Post by kwok »

Yay Warhawks likes my maps.
But here we are again. So many agreements but not enough action. Can we get a wolf opinion? If bk supports the right maps I think we can really have some more constructive discussions.

Those nightmarish maps that lionelus listed are great 2v2 maps btw.
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Re: Arty

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Both; Road To Cherbourg and LaFiere are getting dramatically improved anyway... I think they will simply turn into becoming the best 3vs3 maps out there!

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Re: Arty

Post by Warhawks97 »

Tiger1996 wrote:Both; Road To Cherbourg and LaFiere are getting dramatically improved anyway... I think they will simply turn into becoming the best 3vs3 maps out there!



changes are good. Esspecially the lower arty income is necessary. Ok, La fiere might become very good with more and better rooms to maneuver. But the others will still stuck on that lane design with few powerfull weapons that makes masses and maneuverbility obsolet almost.
Build more AA Walderschmidt

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