Stuart

[Jagdpanther]

No one uses this tank because there are better alternatives. Any ideas how to make it more appealing to people since it was a very iconic tank of the war, 22,744 built

[MarKr]

In the new patch Stuart gets fixed HE mode. As it is now, it pretty much needs to hit a soldier directly in order to kill him. The AoE values will be improved and thus the HE mode will be more effective. Still not as effective as M4 Sherman's HE mode, but Stuart's HE upgrade only costs 45 ammo, while M4's upgrade costs 90.

[JimQwilleran]

I guess it is another thing that Hawks pointed out sometime .

[MarKr]

Yes, he was right about this.

[Jalis]

It is however a strange up from a realist/historical point of view. It was know early war, and confirmed during Africa campaign guns under 75 mm, were ineficient against infantry. It s main reason that made the 2 pdr obsolete. Afaik very late war in europe canister ammo was made for 37 mm, but no one relied on 37 mm HE against infantry.

[MarKr]

Yes, we know. But what else would you do? Give it "pay-for-each-shot" casnister ability? Stuart is an early-mid game unit in these phases of the game you usally cannot affort to pay 35 ammo every time you want to kill a squad. It's weapon is pretty poor, it comes too late to counter Halftracks (and even if, it dies easily even to 37mm guns so it is in danger from the start) and against anything stronger it gets rekt too. So unless we'll find a better role for it, it stays an anti-infantry unit.

[kwok]

I'd actually like to ask about potential roles, because I'm having trouble fitting it with a role in my mod as well.
One suggestion was it acts something like a recce would: a durable recon.

[Jalis]

Fact some units have problems to be usefull have roots, imo, in fact game and reality are two different things. Recons units have few value in game, where line of sight are very generous. COH is also a tactical game. Cost range between light vehicles, light tank and medium/heavy tanks is too short. I dont know for pvp, but I feel that buy a light tank is simply a waste. a medium or heavy is far more usefull and dont cost that much. Roughly little units could be hire only when heaviers are not available yet, and, if you are urged to buy something.

Roughly the game is made like that. It is also the tank game. how many soldiers mobilized during the WWII ? How many tank built ? --> when I play coh I dont feel porportion is realist.

Well, probably forget realism to find a solution for stuart is the wise way. Understand ; forget my primary comment about 37 mm he (un) efficiency against infantry.

[kwok]

So here's a fun question jalis, despite bk-environment what would you imagine the Stuart to do in a game?

[JimQwilleran]

If I may give you my opinion ..
I think that "despite bk-environment" Stuart should be like Panzer IV E in terms of armor (means that only long-barreled Panzer IV F2 could penetrate it, actually axis stubby 75mm gun's penetration values are set way too high.) But the purpose of this tank would be early infantry support and tank fighting. If it could be fielded just like recce, having quick-firing gun, capable to penetrate all Panzers IV up to E from effective range, I would erase it's HE mode, making it an early allied breakthru unit, but without good anti-inf capabilities. It's performance would be similiar with Panzer IV F2, but it would be cheaper and available earlier, just after the 3rd building is built. On the other hand, fielding it would slow down US base development, as the player would be forced to choose: either early punch with Stuart that can die with 1 50mm gun shot, or the supply yard for increased manpower, or the Tank depot with shermans that give you bigger firepower but available later. I think that now players only have 2 options, supply yard or Tank depot, US lacks early armored breakthru unit. But what I say is "despite bk-environment", just imaging how I would organize it if I was the dev . Nonetheless, I still do like how things look right now.

[Krieger Blitzer]

There is 1 thing i would also like to add... Pz4 F1 (and also other tanks) top turret MG gunner is too easy to snipe using sharpshooters; which is realistic.. but speaking of Stuarts, I then wonder if specifically the Recce could be done the same way!

[kwok]

Illa, off topic asks. What if I said making units/Stuarts do not delay development. End state battle where all things are out there, can the Stuart have a role that lasts through every stage of the game? Just as how the recce stays relevant through the entire game, early to late, can the Stuart do the same and not become obsolete by maybe an m10 (which you sort of make it sound like).

[JimQwilleran]

Illa, off topic asks. What if I said making units/Stuarts do not delay development. End state battle where all things are out there, can the Stuart have a role that lasts through every stage of the game? Just as how the recce stays relevant through the entire game, early to late, can the Stuart do the same and not become obsolete by maybe an m10 (which you sort of make it sound like).

I don't think so. As the war developed the light tanks became only good for scouting or light support in places unavailable for heavier tanks. They became mainly commando tanks, airborne tanks etc. While main supportive role was inherited by medium tanks (later MBT). I don't think that making Stuart balanced for servicing throughout the whole game is a good path to follow. They just became logically obsolete, as the heavier the tank is, the better firepower and survivability (at least until modern designs were created. That is why tanks like KV-1 or KV-2 became legends of the eastern front.)

[kwok]

Cool. That gives me some alternative ideas. Thanks.

[JimQwilleran]

You are welcome . Actually I found a short info here.

Spoiler: show

When the U.S. Army joined the North African Campaign in late 1942, Stuart units still formed a large part of its armor strength. After the disastrous Battle of Kasserine Pass, the U.S. quickly followed the British in disbanding most of their light tank battalions and subordinating the Stuarts to medium tank battalions performing the traditional cavalry missions of scouting and screening. For the rest of the war, most U.S. tank battalions had three companies of M4 Shermans and one company of M3s or M5/M5A1s.

In Europe, Allied light tanks had to be given cavalry and infantry fire support roles since their main cannon armament could not compete with heavier enemy armored fighting vehicles. However, the Stuart was still effective in combat in the Pacific Theater, as Japanese tanks were both relatively rare and were lighter in armor than even Allied light tanks. Japanese infantrymen were not well equipped with anti-tank weapons, and as such had to use close assault tactics. In this environment, the Stuart was only moderately more vulnerable than medium tanks.

Though the Stuart was to be completely replaced by the newer M24 Chaffee, the number of M3s/M5s produced was so great (over 25,000 including the 75mm HMC M8) that the tank remained in service until the end of the war, and well after.

I was just going to say, that Stuarts were doing much better in the Far East, because Japanese army was not prepared well to counter any armor. Funny it is that, they had built so many Stuarts, they eventually had no idea what to do with them .

[Jalis]

So here's a fun question jalis, despite bk-environment what would you imagine the Stuart to do in a game?

BK environment is typically PVP. I would (no more) make the mistake to imagine something about an unfamiliar environment. I m not a PVP, at least not at BK.
Now we have some common problems, such as unreliable/touchy HE ammo that need perfectly flat and open terrain to be effective.

So I can perhaps suggest something. Kick out canister use for ammo cost, and balance it to replace Stuart HE function. Perhaps you will have to nerf it, probably it will have lesser effective range, we can also imagine it will be less effective VS emplacement ... But you will have something original and predictable / reliable.

That s all I can say, with what we share / have in common about the game.

[sgtToni95]

Will british RE stuart get the same tuning?

[MarKr]

Yes, the change will apply to both CW and US Stuart.

[Warhawks97]

Some good point where made already. jalis already pointed out that the general problem for such units is (and many light or medium vehicles in general) that heavier tanks with much more HP and better guns do not cost much more. I mean take a look.... Compare HT´s with 75 mm guns to stug III. Literally same cost. Or Shermans that (in armor doc) costing less than most vehicles.

Sure, we can increase tank cost by a lot so that vehicles and medium armor or light armor serves a point. The only thing vehicles have as advantage is the speed or certain abilties... the stuart has non of that. And if we increase MBT cost then the cost balance to the infantry would be thrown over as, unless a tank is dedicated anti inf or a Panther, tanks have to run away from single inf squads.

So all that balance would have to change before armor can get more expensive which is unlikely to happen.


The only thing and role in current BK for stuart is:

1. Earlier avaialbe so that stuart can push together with infantry and providing some kind of protection against the axis 20 mm vehicles (still the 75 mm HT would remain as first choice unless the range gets back to 60).
2. And as the stuart will never be able to hunt a vehicles but rather protects the inf against vehicles, there would be more than just one needed. Which means cost drop.....I am imaging 240 MP rifles pared with some 280 MP stuarts.... so that some sort of battlegroup could exist with units below the 300 MP mark (or units that can be replaced within a min). That way more frontline explorations might occure before the game turns right into an arty festival.

[Panzerblitz1]

Some good point where made already. jalis already pointed out that the general problem for such units is (and many light or medium vehicles in general) that heavier tanks with much more HP and better guns do not cost much more. I mean take a look.... Compare HT´s with 75 mm guns to stug III. Literally same cost. Or Shermans that (in armor doc) costing less than most vehicles.

I remind you guys that light armored units has to cost a bit of money because they r starting units who are facing light vehicles and early troops, you just can't compare the price of a mid game medium tank with game starting light armored tanks, yes some medium tanks cost maybe the same price, but thats a complete another story, the timing you will get those medium tanks in game isn't quite the same thing as getting early starting armored vehicles during a play, in general, starting units are more sensitive than mid game units.

Prices are sets depending factions, game timing, doctrine with their specific gameplay, and factions game abilities, essential things for pvp balance.