Tank Commander bonuses

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MarKr
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Tank Commander bonuses

Postby MarKr » 03 Nov 2016, 22:04

Hey guys, time for some opinions from you.

Recently I looked at the stats and bonuses that Tank Commanders provide and this is what I found:
When a TC gets into a vehicle there are these modifiers:
Sight +15
Weapon reload time x0.85 (Reloads 15% faster)
Weapon accuracy: x1.25 (+25% accuracy)
Rec. accuracy: x0.85 (15% harder to hit)
Rec. damage: x0.85 (takes 15% less damage)
Given the way the modifier is applied I am not sure if these apply on the TC or the vehicle he is in. I think it applies to the TC so the only benefit is the sight bonus because the rest makes no difference on TC's weapon when he is inside a vehicle. On the other hand why would the other modifiers be there if they do nothing? Well, anyway...

At vet level 1:
Weapon accuracy: x1.15
Rec. accuracy: x0.9
Weapon penetration: x1.1

Vet2:
Weapon accuracy: x1.25
Rec. accuracy: x0.8
Weapon penetration: x1.2

Vet3:
Weapon accuracy: x1.35
Rec. accuracy: x0.7
Weapon penetration: x1.3

The bonuses from each level stack so cumulative bonus at Vet3 is:
accuracy x1.94 (2.425) = accuracy +94% (+242.5%)
rec. accuracy x0.504 (0.4284) = harder to hit by 49.6% (57.16%)
penetration x1.716 = penetration chance +71.6%
(weapon reload time x0.85)
(rec. damage: x0.85)
- values in parentheses apply in case that the "level 0" stats apply on the vehicle too

From my perspective most of the bonuses make little sense. TC cannot make a tank as big as KT harder to hit, cannot miraculously icrease penetration etc.
Also the accuracy bonus is so high, that it makes the tank never miss other vehicles unless those have some accuracy nerfing modifiers on them (e.g. smoke and/or some vehicle-specific modifier). Also is something is meant to be easily hit, guns usually have accuracy bonus against it (e.g. big tanks such as KT, JT are easier to hit by most weapons) or if they are meant to be harder to hit, the same applies (e.g. Cromwells or JPIV) and the bonuses from TCskinda negate these downsides/upsides the tanks were meant to have.
And the penetration bonus is actually stronger than what AP ammo provides - so technically with TC in a tank you never need to use AP rounds at all, or you can use it in tanks such as Shermans to penetrate targets they should not be able to penetrate (TC penetration bonus stacks with AP bonus).

So I was thinking that the tank commanders could be done differently - similar to how light vehicle veterancy works. Something like this:
Vet0:
Sight +15

Vet1:
Weapon reload time x0.85

Vet2:
Weapon accuracy: x1.25

Vet3:
Rec. damage: x0.85

This way each vet level would provide a buff in a certain area - faster reloading, better accuracy, taking less damage. Bonuses are significant enough to make a difference but they don't provide over the top bonuses. Of course this would make the TCs way less effective than they are now (though still buffing the vehicle by significant amount) so their price could be dropped from 340MP to...I don't know...220MP?

So what do you think? Should Tank Commanders stay as they are or should we bring them more to the mortal realm? :)
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Tiger1996
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Nov 2016, 22:15

First, I really have to thank you very much for finally bringing this up! As I have recently created a topic where I mentioned about Tank Commanders... Here; viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1350&p=14018#p14015


And I think you can already except what I am going to say.. as it's no different from what I have already stated on that topic; as I said:-
2) Tank Commanders... Why the heck they increase the penetration chances??!! They already give sight range boost, isn't this enough already? Or why do we need APCR rounds then??!! I made a test where my Tiger bounced against the Jumbo 6 times at maximum range, but once i inserted my tank commander. I killed it with 2 shots. No APCR rounds were used at all... Maybe we should reduce their price, therefore tank commanders should be no longer providing any penetration bonuses.


So yes, I would honestly even vote for entirely removing all the other bonuses.. except the sight range boost :P But the way how you suggest it, seems pretty fine as well... However, price reduction to 240 MP is more than enough! :)

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Warhawks97
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 Nov 2016, 22:55

I like the idea. I didnt know the vets stack. I mean more than 70% pen bonus. Its like the tank commander replaces the original gun with a magic gun or he uses some kind of prototype ammo which he carries in his pocket. I like the proposed idea actually.

Just shall we make it like vehicle stats that are from voch and thus giving dif. bonuses at each level which are therefore boosting a lot at once. Or more like current BK inf vets.... each level provides bonuses to all the three proposed bonuses but therefor in small ammounts? Like 0.95 reload time, 1.05 accuracy and 0.95 rec. damage at lvl one. Then 0.95 rt, 1.05 a, 0.95 rec. damage at vet 2 and this repeated at vet 3. So a vet 3 commander would give the same bonuses as proposed, just each lvl boosts everything by a small ammount instead each boosts something completely different by an high ammount.
Thats what i think is more realistic and logic.

240 MP would seem appropriate.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 04 Nov 2016, 12:47, edited 1 time in total.

JimQwilleran
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby JimQwilleran » 04 Nov 2016, 00:17

With price decreased, I agree too!

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Leonida [525]
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Leonida [525] » 04 Nov 2016, 14:30

I also really like these new tank commanders! Ok for me

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XAHTEP39
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby XAHTEP39 » 04 Nov 2016, 15:22

... and additional overall bonus of Tank Commander, if a Tank Commander is into tank - "boost of xp for veteran-stages of tank".

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MarKr
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby MarKr » 04 Nov 2016, 15:54

XAHTEP39 wrote:... and additional overall bonus of Tank Commander, if a Tank Commander is into tank - "boost of
I don't now if this is a good idea...there already are unlocks that make tanks level up faster. If you combine that with such a buff from Tank Commander they might level up too fast - don't forget that tanks get their own bonuses with Veterancy (these stack with the TC bonuses). I think that further XP boost might be a bit too much.
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JimQwilleran
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby JimQwilleran » 04 Nov 2016, 16:02

MarKr wrote:I don't now if this is a good idea...there already are unlocks that make tanks level up faster. If you combine that with such a buff from Tank Commander they might level up too fast - don't forget that tanks get their own bonuses with Veterancy (these stack with the TC bonuses). I think that further XP boost might be a bit too much.

True, they shouldn't level up too fast. Later they become either impossible to hit, impossible to penetrate, or have huge damage reduction.

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Leonida [525]
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Leonida [525] » 04 Nov 2016, 16:57

One question, considering the nerf proposed for tank commanders, would be possible to put them in the inf barracks or panzer factory of WH?

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MarKr
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby MarKr » 04 Nov 2016, 17:50

It would be possible, but is it really necessary to make them available there for all WH doctrines?

And when I say necessary, I mean necessary, not more convinient or "others have that too".
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Tiger1996
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Tiger1996 » 04 Nov 2016, 18:50

Well, I honestly think it would be absolutely fine if you move WH tank commanders to the 3rd building... Which is the Panzer Factory; I mean.. just why not?!
But it's not a big deal though.

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Devilfish
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Devilfish » 04 Nov 2016, 19:32

JimQwilleran wrote:True, they shouldn't level up too fast. Later they become either impossible to hit, impossible to penetrate, or have huge damage reduction.

What about letting them level up fast and remove such a stupid thing as damage reduction?
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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Warhawks97
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Nov 2016, 12:21

Devilfish wrote:
JimQwilleran wrote:True, they shouldn't level up too fast. Later they become either impossible to hit, impossible to penetrate, or have huge damage reduction.

What about letting them level up fast and remove such a stupid thing as damage reduction?



Maybe its like that experienced tank commanders can push their crew more so that they dont instantly give up a tank... idk... Thing is that infantry vets (of officer area boost) also provide stuff like damage increase and other weird things. I mean do they start using larger calibres? So maybe not everything has to be 100% realistic. Or we would have to rework most veterancy stuff in BK.

kwok
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby kwok » 05 Nov 2016, 23:18

Another "reason" for extended tank survivability is just general understanding of the tank in relation to the land. Example, hull-down isn't actually digging a tank into sandbags but rather a tactic where you position a tank's hull behind some defilade while keeping the turret above defilade. This can't be really simulated in CoH where weapons are generally non-terrain affected. Or even turning the tank a certain angle will help increase chances of bouncing/deflecting. CoH tank combat is not as sophisticated to enable a lot of these decisions, and I don't even think it should because that becomes too micro in scale. You can play MoW or WoT for that experience.
TLDR Tank commanders can get a better sense of how to roll their tank on the earth and position the machine which can really increase the lifespan of a crew.

Opinion wise, I like the proposed changes by Markr. I just wanted to play devil's advocate for the old way.

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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 06 Nov 2016, 11:06

Damage reduction must stay for sure, its really crucial and the most valuable thing about tank commander. Also, if you use a tank (Sherman, pz, stug and etc.) with no commander it dies with 2 zooks\schrecks, it really sucks.

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Jalis
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Jalis » 06 Nov 2016, 14:51

just my interpretation.

Penetration bonus is simply knowledge of ennemies tanks weak spots. It is not the tank commander who bless shell giving it magical power.

damage reduction is how positioning your tanks to increase deflection. Point is could have been a result for nerf ennemy accuracy, using terrain to hide part of the tank. If we refere to diamond position, damage reduction could had been ; recieve penetration modifier as well.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Nov 2016, 22:51

well.... ok, like 15 or 20% increased pen would be ok but 71? Even if you know weak spots.....

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Jalis
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Jalis » 07 Nov 2016, 00:47

15 20 or 71 per cent of what ? if it is 70% it is a lot, but if it is from a 5% basis it is not enough.

However this part of the discution is not for me. I just gave an explaination, why tank commander giving bonus on penetration or recieve damage/accuracy/penetration modifiers, is something acceptable from a logic point of view. Value to apply was not part of my comments.

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Jagdpanther
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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Jagdpanther » 07 Nov 2016, 01:41

Also tank commanders could be available for all tanks, many agree viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1126

I would love to see a tank commander in the new little panzer III

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Re: Tank Commander bonuses

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 07 Nov 2016, 16:39

Jagdpanther wrote:Also tank commanders could be available for all tanks, many agree viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1126

I would love to see a tank commander in the new little panzer III

The Panzer III like all Panzer IV's will have the possibity to have a tank commander.
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