Some reminders regarding infantry

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Hey all, as far as new update will come out soon, Id like to point at some weak balance spots regarding infantry in mod.

1) Fragmentation granades for raf infantry....they just need it because raf gameplay in urban maps is ridiculous, gammon bombs dont damage inf in buildings, moreover they are extremely expensive and short ranged. The reason why commando didnt have nades in past is invisible smoke ( could be OP because opponent couldnt see your nade coming ), but now there are no any reasons why they shouldnt have normal granades.

2) Reg.5, the biggest fail of the last update, absolutely OP and balance breaking. So far idea to buff their perfomance was really bad. I suggest to back up their stats to the times when they didnt bother anybody, didnt overperform or sucked ( times before Hawks touched Luft doc with his slicky hands ).
Cost - 600 MP, reinforce - 39 MP, no def bonuce. Gebirgs will remain with 550 MP cost and 45 Reinforce.

3) Rangers and Grenadiers vet. gaining speed got a bit overnerfed, they recieve vet. steps much slower than luft\AB\Raf, 15-20% will help a lot.

4) Infiltration rangers. How about making them usefull and special finally? Inf doc painfully misses some good damage units, let infiltration rangers come with no weapons and add the following upgrades for them: Zooka, thompsons, Bar (3 max) so they can be a kind of supression support squad with good damage characteristics. Currently this unit makes no sense at all, perfoms just like normal rangers, but have twice of their reinforcement cost, require 4 CP and they cant even pick up a weapon from the ground. Considering them as a late game unit thei weapon load out makes zero sense as well, Thompons and single zooka can only tickle all axis late game stuff.

5) 101s AB a bit too cheap, add +15 MP to their cost, 400 will be fair enough.

I think there were some other ideas... I will add them in next post if I will recall them.

[crimax]

My opinion:

1 - OK. Since ninja smoke effects and all commandos units got huge nerf, they need fragm nades. No doubts. But normal fragmentation nades stats. (For example: like US infrantry ones). It could be an upgrade in the tech tree or VET upgrade. Up to you.

2 - OK. SO??? Wasn't Flack88 the real problem ??? (hahaha) Anyway ... I suppose you are talking about Fallschirmjager (If yes. I never understood why some of you call them Regiment 5 Oo) Need a re-balance. Too much defence bonus BUT moove nerf slowly.... Fuck Air doctrines balancing is easy. Gebirgs are OK.

3 - OK. Once again. Buff VET just a bit .... OR we will have blobs of VET4/5 infantry dicking around the map.

4 - OK. They need to find their way in life

5 - OK and the piece of defence bonus just cutted from Fallschirmjager could be pasted here

[Krieger Blitzer]

1 >>> Hmm, yes.. i can agree that they actually suck in urban maps... But on the other hand; i think that the standard CW Rifle Section squad does actually have pretty useful long range rifle grenades + sniper shot and also Bren LMGs, the rifle grenades are inaccurate.. but once it lands in a good spot, then it could blow up an entire Luft squad behind cover.
I am fine with giving the Commandos normal grenades though! But maybe in return, the standard Rifle Section squads should no longer have such ridiculously long ranged rifle grenades anymore.. at least only when RAF doc is chosen.
So; upgrading rifle grenades to your rifle section squads would be only available after you choose either RE or RA docs...

2 >>> Actually, Reg5 (Fallschirmjägers) squads definitely sucked so bad in the past.. and 600 MP seems pretty much! Just nerfing their Def bonus could be more than enough... Don't forget that late game RAF inf are almost as good.

3 >>> I don't really care about this one

4 >>> Inf doc _ ALONE _ has 3 different specialized infantry squads... CQBs, Combat Engineers, and infiltration Rangers.. not to mention that normal Rangers will be much cheaper, also with the capability to ambush late game!
I would suggest to move the Combat Engineers to Armor doc for the same cost and with a limit of only 2 at a time, as they should be no longer able to build 50.cal MG emplacements or any other stuff related to Inf doc.. while probably improving the infiltration Rangers like you say, as a result.

5 >>> AB inf are real monsters in late game actually... Yes, they used to cost 415 MP so i think 400 MP would be decent enough.. 385 is too cheap for their magnificent performance! Not to mention that they could just keep reinforcing themselves from the air all the time, while Grenadiers and Storms always have to retreat to reinforce.

Also, I think Riflemen squads should be no longer able to have the upgrade for rifle grenades as AB doc anymore.. instead; they should be able to have it as Armor doc. So, it wouldn't be possible to upgrade it until u choose either Inf or Armor docs.


Now, let me add number 6 to this list...
As I honestly fail to see the point of the Demolition Storm squad in the game.. they are limited to only 1 at a time, don't have normal nades... Only 4 men which means they could be easily countered by snipers; and they can't crawl using evasive actions unless the veterancy item is unlocked only in late game... And now, they won't be able to spawn into empty emplacements too.
I wonder, why the hell are they even in the game then??!!

I would say that they should have booby traps, WH is the only faction that doesn't have booby traps at all... And don't tell me it's because they have Shrapnel mines, as i am aware it's a deadly anti personal mine.. but CW Hawkins are simply as good!
Demo Storm squad should be also excluded from the veterancy unlock, I mean that it should be probably the only Storm unit that is able to use evasive action without having to unlock the Storms veterancy first... I think.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

1>>> CW rifle nades suck I think..... they are nearly not as good as US ones. And question is not about them even, just about commando.

2>>> They started to a suck after reinforcement cost change ( it went up from 39 to 45 ). Before that they were just fine, keep in mind that they got different target type and it's harder to hit them atm. Nerfing def bonuce won't help imo, it's just too crazy together with FG42 and new target type. 39 reinforce cost equals to storm troopers, you get a fully equipped squad for 600 mp with relatively low reinfrorcement cost, this will fit to their assault role.

4>>> Ye..... they have 3 specialized inf types and all of them suck, what's the point here?

Regarding demo squads I agree, boobies and evasive maneuvers will be cool. Currently they don't have much use, I never use them really....

[Krieger Blitzer]

They started to a suck after reinforcement cost change ( it went up from 39 to 45 ). Before that they were just fine, keep in mind that they got different target type and it's harder to hit them atm. Nerfing def bonuce won't help imo, it's just too crazy together with FG42 and new target type. 39 reinforce cost equals to storm troopers, you get a fully equipped squad for 600 mp with relatively low reinfrorcement cost, this will fit to their assault role.

Oh, i actually thought you wanted to remove their new target type as well... If the new target type would stay; then I think I am fine with this piece of suggestion also.

Ye..... they have 3 specialized inf types and all of them suck, what's the point here?

The point is that they don't even need them Normal Rangers fit the role already.. while I also had to suggest moving Combat Engineers to Armor doc once again.

Regarding demo squads I agree, boobies and evasive maneuvers will be cool. Currently they don't have much use, I never use them really....

Ya, I really wish someone could finally hear this...

[MarKr]

In the upcoming patch Gammon bombs will become effective against soldiers in buildings/trenches but iirc Wolf said that was enough and grenades are not needed for them.

As for Reg5 - the defensive bonus will be reduced and it will only apply when they stand still. We'll see after beta feedback - if they are still too strong we can remove the defensive bonus completely.

I don't know about the rest. Let's wait what Wolf thinks about it.

[sgtToni95]

Will gammon bombs be as effective as normal granades when used on buildings? I think they already work on trenches btw

[MarKr]

I think we set it the way that they deal a bit more damage than normal grenades but each soldier in a house has a small chance to "not get hit" by the gammon. So there is upside and downside. But compared to how they worked agains garrisoned infantry before, now they work way better.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I don't like that decision honestly. It's painfully expensive to use gammons all the time, moreover, from realistic point of view using them against inf is stupid as they were used against tanks and vehicles.

Anyways, is there at least a single objective reason why commando don't have fragmentation granades?

[kwok]

Probably don't have UI. Besides, why not just use regular inf sections for buildings? They cost just as much as commandos and have additional utility as well. I pref keeping the commandos as is so that they have reliable trade offs instead of rng trade off. Cuz then you'll just get some rng based frustration and people coming back talking about how "something happens too often". Wasn't there just recently a 17pdr post regarding the same concept?

As for 101st, why are they so strong again? I just wiped two full squads out with a single volks losing only 1 man... It's based on user, not the unit itself... They really aren't that remarkable except they can parachute and get buffs on the move instead of debuffs (ab armor).

Reg5 on the other hand... I've talked about it a lot but I guess I'll post on forum.
Their issue is that they currently have no trade offs.. They are like the old kch. Their weapons have 2nd highest average dps, with gebirgs first and mp44s third. So they are damage monster PLUS now they get gap closing benefits as well? Where is the weakness trade off? This is how you get zero skill units like M8 Scotts, panthers, kch, fully upgraded commandos. I agree with completely removing its defensive buffs because that was the only way using this unit required any skill, learning how to close distance without taking losses, and with the 2nd highest dps it's rewarded so quickly that it justifies their high cost relative to something like closing distance with rangers or grens.

As for the Rangers, as long as SOME inf unit has satchels I could care less. That's why I use them and don't mind the cost. whatever changes happen, I hope that I will still be able to get satchels for defense clearing.

[Warhawks97]

What did i wrong? Omg i simply overspammed my enemies with 88´s that were understroyable by arty. I feel so sorry... OMG. (I actually dont)

And what was old luft? High build cost but low reinforce cost= 2-3 600 MP units that slightly hurt the res pool of a player.... later vet and spamable like almost basic inf thx to their reinforce cost not much higher than those of basic inf units. That was soooo much fun to see late game players with 4 luftwaffe units and like 1500 MP in reserve. We enjoyed to see that all day long. But i shouldnt care anyway. Just i dont get why that hate.... as if i wanted the last changes with def bonus and armor type change.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

After that Luft became fortoggen doc which nobody really played. What did it have? Inf with such an expensive reinforcement that you couldnt afford anything else loosing fight against combined forces, shitty useless flaks which together with expensive pioneers costed a fortune, planes which got one shoted by crusaders and quad cals ( still the same ). So instead of cool doc we got bs which can't do anything better than other axis docs. I only agree with flaks HP nerf and sd2 price increase, all other changes regarding luft were bs....

Currently people pick Luft only because of mega butchers Fallchirmjaegers, all other stuff is miserable.

" luftwaffe units and like 1500 MP in reserve"

So what? USA can have maxed out pop cap army and still keep dozens of MP in reserve, why you don't propose to nerf them?

[Warhawks97]

What has it to do with that? I was talking about early to late game ressource balance. Having unit highly expensive in in early stage but extremly cheap and deadly later in the game causes two major problems.

The first is that the unit composition in the early stage is veeeery limited because you get two units and you got out of res.
The second is that during later stages the units become extremely cost effective. Kind of elite killers for a price of basic inf. Still player tend to keep all the res in reserve because for the rare reason to lose a squad completely and due to a lack of usefull support tools (only wirbelwind is something i would say is worth an investment). And thats plainly boring.

As for inf doc its rather rare to see so called maxed out popcap force and many res in reserve and inf then only during the final steps during the game when team somehow gained arty superiority. Unless this is achieved and the game open and in full rumble (or rather rampage) even the largest inf doc army can be pulverized within seconds just by a ( or more) well placed arty strike(s) followed by late game armor usage. And a maxed out force drains even with supply yard the upkeep considerable. It would suck if inf doc would have 4 ranger squads and nothing else rumbling throughout a game, killing everything in its path and reinforce them for and apple and an egg. Its more about how interesting we want to make games...... and both, the old way (3 squads, ressource billionaire and killer king at once) but also the new way (not a res billionaire, but 12 men ruling all fights with rambo warrior gene) are no fun to play.

And in case you are talking about the very old days..... i just want to remind you of reinforce cost as high as 63 without any def bonuses.


@devs: Did i take some drugs or has the 82nd AB squad armor type heroic? Maybe you can check it out?
If thats the case i wonder whats the reason behind that. Coz it makes little sense. Heroic type is more something for long living defenders that can stand HE blasts but nothing for units like 82nd supposed to close in on enemie inf Oo.

Edit: Question at devs is solved. Though its interesting.