AA Units

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

There is a bug with Quad Truck and Crusader, they instantly shoot down all axis planes with 2-3 bullets, especially henchels. Usually after henchel patrol these units get vet.4 because they shot down 5-6 planes. Have a look at it.

Also it seems to me that Ostwind have -100% accuracy penalty while moving or something, because if you drive and shoot it deals zero damage and all the shells hit the dirt around infantry ( talking about HE shells being used against infantry ).

[Krieger Blitzer]

There is a bug with Quad Truck and Crusader, they instantly shoot down all axis planes with 2-3 bullets, especially henchels. Usually after henchel patrol these units get vet.4 because they shot down 5-6 planes. Have a look at it.

Also it seems to me that Ostwind have -100% accuracy penalty while moving or something, because if you drive and shoot it deals zero damage and all the shells hit the dirt around infantry ( talking about HE shells being used against infantry ).

Very true.

Let me add...
Some AA units were somehow still able to move even after activating the static AA position mode! Such as the Puma armored car.

[MarKr]

There is a bug with Quad Truck and Crusader, they instantly shoot down all axis planes with 2-3 bullets, especially henchels.

We know about this and are lloking for the best solution to this.

Also it seems to me that Ostwind have -100% accuracy penalty while moving or something, because if you drive and shoot it deals zero damage and all the shells hit the dirt around infantry ( talking about HE shells being used against infantry ).

Nope, Ostwind has -50% accuracy penalty while moving (just as most vehicles do) but that applies to the "AP" mode too. The thing with "hitting dirt everywhere around" is just a visual effect. But if you combine the chance to miss which it has at each distance with some accuracy nerfs against certain types of targets and with this movement penalty it is true that its hit-chance can be pretty low.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Imo it's not really fair, quad cal shreds infantry very good even when driving with crazy speed, Crusader is much worse, but still can kill somebody unlike ostwind, add here that this units don't require any ammo + cheaper than Ostwind or Wirbelwind. Can you tell me what is the accuracy penalty for Ostwind when all certain conditions are stacked? ( let's say when you drive backwards and shooting at Airborne/commando infantry sprinting towards to Ostwind ). Just wanna hint that according to my opinion practical usefulness of Ostwind is pretty poor, besides of pulverizing some basic info like rangers or rifles it can't do much, it also dies with 2 zooks or recoiless which will never bounce since even the smallest gun like 37mm can penetrate Ostwind. Allied counterparts are so much more cost effective. Have a look:

Quad cal VS Ostwind

1) Price --> point goes to Quad cal., it's much cheaper.
2) Availability --> point goes to Quad cal., available in all docs, also you can get it very early.
3) Damage: Ostwind deals much more damage in static but shoots rubber bullets while moving, at the same time Quad cal can kill info very good even while driving --> both deserve a point.
4) Survivability: Ostwind have more HP for sure, BUT speed is imo much more important factor for survival, when Ostwind faces any kind of allied vehicle it pretty much dead, Quad cal can drive away from everything besides 75mm sdkfz and maybe Panther, also you can overrepair it so unit can take on one Shreck hit --> point goes to Quad cal. From my expirence, I see Quad cals with high score much faster than Ostwind, that talks for itself.
5) vet gaining --> definitely another point to Quad cal, for some reason Ostwind gains vet steps painfully slow.
6) Point to Ostwind since it does nice damage to fortifications.

While I was writing the text above I recalled a balance issue which imo should be solved. That's regarding Quad cal and 57mm halftruck, currently EVERYONE buys them as soon as motor pool is built up, ignoring any other vehicles since this combo is so much better than anything else, 57mm can get rid of any axis vehicle from save distance and Quad cal anihilates humans like terminator from Judgment Day. I think Quad cal should be restricted to infantry doc only ( as I consider info to be the weakest USA doc atm) and 57mm limited to Armor company (underlining tankbusting role) it will be way more balanced and finally we will see some Greyhounds, Chaffies and Stuart's in game ( or maybe the old feature with zooks in halftruck will come back, haven't seen somebody using it for ages ).

Generally speaking I think that Allies have way too many stuff which is cheap but super effective, or I'd better say that some axis things are expensive but not as good as they are supposed to be, maybe some of their units can get price reductions, this will also make a game flow more intense and less campy, besides Luftwaffe doc with crazy reg.5 which doesn't give a fuck about anything axis usually sitting on their ass waiting for late game tanks (because it's hard to handle mid game where well managed allied units are just as effective as axis ones but much cheaper).

I really really really like how you made up AB doc in last patch, it's really intense and fun to play, you can constantly maintain a pressure on your opponent without sitting and waiting for something like with other docs. This is a great example how balance for other docs should look like (besides the fact that Airstrikes are way too cost effective (some time ago I proposed to back up their price: 150 for strafe, 250 for bombs and 300 for patrol) and engies can construct Quad cals right from the start).

Think about it:)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Imo it's not really fair, quad cal shreds infantry very good even when driving with crazy speed, Crusader is much worse, but still can kill somebody unlike ostwind, add here that this units don't require any ammo + cheaper than Ostwind or Wirbelwind. Can you tell me what is the accuracy penalty for Ostwind when all certain conditions are stacked ( let's say when you drive backwards and shooting at Airborne/commando infantry sprinting towards to Ostwind ). Just wanna hint that according to my opinion practical usefulness of Ostwind is pretty poor, besides of pulverizing some basic info like rangers or rifles it can't do much, it also dies with 2 zooks or recoiless which will never bounce since even the smallest gun like 37mm can penetrate Ostwind. Allied counterparts are so much more cost effective. Have a look:

Quad cal VS Ostwind

1) Price --> point goes to Quad cal., it's much cheaper.
2) Availability --> point goes to Quad cal., available in all docs, also you can get it very early.
3) Damage: Ostwind deals much more damage in static but shoots rubber bullets while moving, at the same time Quad cal can kill info very good even while driving --> both deserve a point.
4) Survivability: Ostwind have more HP for sure, BUT speed is imo much more important factor for survival, when Ostwind faces any kind of allied vehicle it pretty much dead, Quad cal can drive away from everything besides 75mm sdkfz and maybe Panther, also you can overrepair it so unit can take on one Shreck hit --> point goes to Quad cal. From my expirence, I see Quad cals with high score much faster than Ostwind, that talks for itself.
5) vet gaining --> definitely another point to Quad cal, for some reason Ostwind gains vet steps painfully slow.
6) Point to Ostwind since it does nice damage to fortifications.

While I was writing the text above I recalled a balance issue which imo should be solved. That's regarding Quad cal and 75mm halftruck, currently EVERYONE buys them as soon as motor pool is built up, ignoring any other vehicles since this combo is so much better than anything else, 75mm can get rid of any axis vehicle from save distance and Quad cal anihilates humans like terminator from Judgment Day. I think Quad cal should be restricted to infantry doc only ( as I consider info to be the weakest USA doc atm) and 75mm limited to Armor company (underlining tankbusting role) it will be way more balanced and finally we will see some Greyhounds, Chaffies and Stuart's in game ( or maybe the old feature with zooks in halftruck will come back, haven't seen somebody using it for ages ).

Generally speaking I think that Allies have way too many stuff which is cheap but super effective, or I'd better say that some axis things are expensive but not as good as they are supposed to be, maybe some of their units can get price reductions, this will also make a game flow more intense and less campy, besides Luftwaffe doc with crazy reg.5 which doesn't give a fuck about anything axis usually sitting on their ass waiting for late game tanks (because it's hard to handle mid game where well managed allied units are just as effective as axis ones but much cheaper).

I really really really like how you made up AB doc in last patch, it's really intense and fun to play, you can constantly maintain a pressure on your opponent without sitting and waiting for something like with other docs. This is a great example how balance for other docs should look like (besides the fact that Airstrikes are way too cost effective (some time ago I proposed to back up their price: 150 for strafe, 250 for bombs and 300 for patrol) and engies can construct Quad cals right from the start).

Think about it:)

I CAN'T AGREE MORE, YOU LITERALLY NAILED IT.
DAMN! 99999999999999999999% Agreed ^_^

You meant the US 57mm Half-truck though Not the 75

[MarKr]

I'd say you compare two kinda different things. Yes, both are AA units but there the similarities end. The quad .50cal is a rapid firing weapon - its burst takes on average 3 seconds during which it fires 72 shots. However its accuracy is lower, so it works on the basis "shoot lotsof bullets and some of them will hit something".
Ostwind's burst in HE mode fires 8 shots in 2 seconds, but accuracy and damage is higher.

Also Ostwind deals better damage to lightly armored vehicles.

If you want to compare weapon effectiveness then more fitting would be comparing quad .50cal to PE Wirblewind (both rapid firing) and Ostwind to the 37mm gun of M15A1 or Bofors. Statistically though the rapid shooting guns perform more consistently. Also if you're talking about Ostwind in HE, as you said before then it again has advantage over M16 because M16 needs to hit directly while HE shots of Ostwind have AoE - they don't need to hit directly.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Quad HT need nerf or restriction to only a certain doc. Ostwind obviously need buff... It's absolutely easy to kill the Ostwind with AT teams.. no suppression power and low accuracy while moving. And ya, most importantly.. AB doc shouldn't be able to build these bullshit AA turrets since the start; should first require the AB Engineers or something. Same goes for Brits, they shouldn't be able to build 17p emplacements by default.. but only after choosing the doc.

The 57mm AT gun HT has ridiculous range compared to the Axis 75mm Half-truck which is totally useless now since you significantly decreased the range. Either increase the range of the Axis 75mm Half-truck to be like the US 57mm Half-truck once again, or restrict the US 57mm Half-truck only to Armor doc. AB can use Chaffe or Stuart on other hand... And as Sukin stated, it's usually very frustrating to play against AB doc btw... Very cost effective stuff.

I am just giving u some feedback!

[JimQwilleran]

Imo everything is fine as it is.

Ostwind is meant as support anti-inf/anti-plane weapon. It's like tank destroyer but "inf destroyer". It's not meant to be first line of fire unit. If it gets accuracy buff it will be possible to be killed only by at guns or tanks. By the way blitz already has Panzer IV with top mg (which shreds inf without any regrets), tiger with top mg, and stuh. All kinds of direct anti inf power.

While I was writing the text above I recalled a balance issue which imo should be solved. That's regarding Quad cal and 57mm halftruck, currently EVERYONE buys them as soon as motor pool is built up, ignoring any other vehicles since this combo is so much better than anything else, 57mm can get rid of any axis vehicle from save distance and Quad cal anihilates humans like terminator from Judgment Day. I think Quad cal should be restricted to infantry doc only ( as I consider info to be the weakest USA doc atm) and 57mm limited to Armor company (underlining tankbusting role) it will be way more balanced and finally we will see some Greyhounds, Chaffies and Stuart's in game ( or maybe the old feature with zooks in halftruck will come back, haven't seen somebody using it for ages ).

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Just because some units just work you want to nerf them? Ok, take away free Mp44 from terror grens, because they work. Or better, if you choose mp44, they cant have panzershreck. There shouldn't be such combo really - too annoying, like 6 angles of death. You must be naive if you think that you will see more Greghounds, chaffies and Stuarts. Even more naive if you think that this suggestion will pass. Don't you see a "slight" balance issue in it?

This is what is called bias. You guys had a game where someone stomped you, and now you come here to cry. Please, chill down and reread what you wrote, and think about it really...

[Krieger Blitzer]

"Naive", "Cry" and so on.. as well as this;

Even more naive if you think that this suggestion will pass.

You better shouldn't start using such irritating words while discussing. Sukin didn't call u a naive or whatever... Neither anyone here has ever did. So, don't even start with it.

And:-

You guys had a game where someone stomped you, and now you come here to cry.

Wasn't this the case when u complained about other things recently btw? Anyway, you shall only say your opinion and that's it please...

I am not threatening you either, but I am just really tired of this way of discussion.
________________________________________

Ostwind is meant as support anti-inf/anti-plane weapon.

It's not meant to be first line of fire unit

The Quad is also meant to be the same, as it's not meant to be a first line of fire unit too. While we can see it with all US docs.. as an absolute inf killer most of the time. Armor doc doesn't even need Shermans anymore, thanks to unlimited number of Quads. Not to mention it's very cheap...

If it gets accuracy buff it will be possible to be killed only by at guns or tanks.

The Ostwind is limited to only 2 at a time, and is not cheap... 2 AT teams shouldn't be able to frontally rush the Ostwind so easily like that.

By the way blitz already has Panzer IV with top mg (which shreds inf without any regrets), tiger with top mg, and stuh. All kinds of direct anti inf power.

irrelevant.

[kwok]

Sounds like out-of-forum drama. I'll keep my curiosity limited here.

I think sukin had some good points but I don't agree with reasoning, meanwhile I think illa brings up valid balance concerns.

Quads and Pumas are extremely micro friendly and early game dominating it kind of disrupts flow and breaks down any early game reward depending on the map. A map where fast early fuel is accessible these vehicles are almost always to come out to try to either dominate or counter-dominate the game. They dance around the early game non-mobile AT with little risk and just run away at any sign of trouble. The strategic skill needed to deal with something so tactically easy is "imbalanced" and makes players feel like the game is "less about strategy" and more like Rock Paper Scissors (mentioned more explicitly by devilfish in a diff topic).

My balance recommendation is to just heavily penalize accuracy when the units are on the move like tanks. All vehicles and even most inf in my mod are such this way, so it's about moving into the advantageous position in a fight rather than micro dancing. So far, I've been getting comments like "I like how vehicles are not crazy dominating like in spearhead which makes inf useless."

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, Sukin.. i think you have missed something here btw. I just realized it right now also!

If we limit Quad half-trucks only to a certain doctrine... This means US won't have any mobile AA units in the rest of docs :/

I mean, what are we going to use as an AA support without Quads in Armor doc?

It's true I definitely agreed to restrict the Quads in the first place, but just now.. i figured out it might not be the best solution so far ^^ Maybe limiting their number at a time is a better solution.

Axis have mobile AA units in all docs.. actually.

[MarKr]

If we limit Quad half-trucks only to a certain doctrine... This means US won't have any mobile AA units in the rest of docs :/

Ehm...M15A1? Not that I think that limiting M16 to only one doctrine should be done...just pointing at another mobile AA unit.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Good point! Didn't think of that... Honestly.

Maybe the M15A1 should be no longer in customize army list.. and given to Armor doc. Quad HT can be restricted only to inf doc, while limiting it to only 2 at a time. AB doesn't have much problems... As they would still have the Quad AA turrets, even when allowing them to be built only using AB Engineers, it won't be really an issue i think!

Just throwing ideas

[kwok]

Or just take away a capability so it still serves its purpose but not to the extreme. Assess the unit on what it can do, compare to what it is intended, change the enablers.

Example,
Quad is meant to be defensive AA and anti inf.
Currently capable of defensive AA and offensive anti inf.
Enablers are damage and mobility. The enabler for offensive capability is mobility. So nerf the mobility in some way. This doesn't necessarily mean make it slower but make the mobility such an enabler. Which brought my suggestion of heavy accuracy penalties on the move.
Flat out taking the unit away or toying the costs just upsets balance rather than directly addresses the problem.
This is like analytical method and a framework that can be done for balancing in general rather than blanket cause-effect-effect-effect assessments and discussions.

[JimQwilleran]

Is the argument "Ostwind has worse accuracy while driving than M16" enough to nerf the latter one? M16 is the only US vehicle in the middle game that has high cost effectiveness. In comparison with Stuart and Chaffie.. Those tanks can do nothing to enemy inf, just soak all panzershrecks. If you take away m16, what kind of offensive light armored power there would be? If speed is so important for you Sukin, then tell me: is Stuart faster than Ostwind? Is it fast enough to escape sherck rush?

"People always use M16 + 57mm HT combo". So yea, just because they have a possibility to do something, let's that it from them. (Instead of that propose using shit-tanks or HT with bazookas <--wtf?) That's totaly illogical.... I don't understand this reasoning at all really..

[MarKr]

Which brought my suggestion of heavy accuracy penalties on the move.

It already has accuracy nerf while moving of x0.25 (-75%) which already is heavy. We can apply other modifiers while the unit is moving e.g. shorter bursts (so instead of 72 bullets per burst it could be 30 or so) or make its cooldown (pauses between bursts) longer while moving. If it still overperforms so badly while on the move then why not...

In comparison with Stuart and Chaffie.. Those tanks can do nothing to enemy inf, just soak all panzershrecks.

Stuart has HE mod...yes, it is less effective than the one of M4 Sherman but it is also cheaper. Chaffee, well it is more anti-vehicle light tank - it has the blinding shot ability so it would be unfair if it were also super effective against infantry...however in the next patch the single HE shot ability should finally work properly (in my test games the ability was surprisingly effective) so it would a viable anti-infantry option too.

[Warhawks97]

Well. I wonder why people compare Ostwind with quad cal 50. I always compared the Puma with M16. Both fast, both very cost effective, both AA units and being fast. Just what kwok said.

Besides that i never had that many issues with Ostwind. Usually i kept it behind volks with lmg. The trick was not to try to run away and instead making a burst and then move. Most of the time that was enough to shred most of the rushing inf. And it was usual to survive a zook while M16 is pretty fragile.

Also the M16 has its engine in front. Anyone every noticed that one hit of a 37 mm almost always damages or destroys engine?

When i had problems with inf i kept a Puma.... sometimes even two. The ostwind for deadly AA fire but also as great assault tool against Emplacments. Srsly, the Ostwind is just awesome with HE against emplacments if anyone has ever noticed.


besides that think about what long range anti inf weapons US since everything is only killing at mid range. Especially late game when grens come out and others with superior ranged weapons. And at that stage i would say that units like M16 are cruical to keep the firepower balance untill AB´s and rangers are either in sufficient numbers available or strong enough.

Imagine M16 costing 380 MP, limited to doc etc etc etc. The WH and PE would have absolute mobility superiority thx to 300 MP vehicles with 20 mm canons and flank speed or Puma.


Dont come with greyhound..... The greyhound bounces pretty often from Puma at max range. It never survives a 1 vs 1 against Puma, not even with armored skirts that cost 50 ammo which is a lot at that stage.

The US gameplay would be largely that of brits.....located on smaller parts of the map and unable to maintain controle over larger parts of the map and waiting to get bombed to dust. The M16 would be simply too costly to be used riding arround. And as said, the Greyhound largely struggles to be a counter to 20 mm vehicles and it doesnt kill inf really effectively. The M16 does also not counter Puma but at least it kills inf.

And about stuart/chaffe.... i dont even want to mention their cost efficency.

Also keep in mind that US must have some usefull mobility or mobile but fragile killing tools. US is all about that. Axis can sit arround some important points with deadly efficency and most importantly deadly ranged weapons. Then getting defense breaking arty and deadly mobile anti everything medium tanks. If US would be unable to maintain controle over larger parts with mobile units they would then have no chance to break any defenses. The best option US has against axis defensive gameplay is to prevent it from the beginning while harrassing axis all the time with vehicles. I mean... have you ever seen a game with US only vs axis and both sides camping from the beginning? Axis gonna win usually. And that will happen with proposed M16 changes.

I would suggest to take a look axis vehicles.... mainly Halftracks..... those with 75 mm (WH terror? and PE), the HT with 28 mm Panzerbüchse..... why not taking a look at those? Maybe those could become cost effective M16 counters?

But nooo...... just shout arround of increasing costs.... adding even more silly limits .... Srsly..... everything that works out well shall be limited?

And the M15 is not a good anti replacment to M16.... lacks 360 degree turret and AA mode. And even more stupid is it to remove it from armor doc which suffers most from Henschels. Gameplay wise i would agree that M15 would fit in armor doc (but also inf) while the M16 fits in AB doc regarding gameplay. But as Armor doc would only have fragile, slow, expensive but less effective air protection.


Another suggestion comes into my mind:

What about Greyhound basic cost of 310 MP and and skirts cost 25 MP instead 50 ammo? (generally asking... why skirts etc mostly cost ammo while Sandbags and Firefly armor upgrade cost MP?) If anyone tells me now that skirts or extra armor cost ammo.... just check Firefly Armor upgrade or sanbdags... they cost MP as well.
The M16 would have some ammo cost...... 30 or so... idk. That way players either focus on M16 as anti inf weapon and spend ammo for that or they spend ammo for infantry weapon upgrades.



So yeah, Puma and 20 mm vehicles are a better comparison to M16. Never considered the Ostwind as counterpart to M16.


There are million arguments why too crazy changes on M16 would harm the dynamic gameplay and the US gameplay in general. And if i am not mistaken the US was argued to be based on mobility and "flanking arround" with more mobile but fragile units while axis is more the defending and head on breakthrough faction with punishment arty and heavy tanks is.

@Mark: Have you ever really checked the stuarts HE rounds? damage and especially the AoE? It is, at best, sniping single soldiers. AoE doesnt really exist actually..... not to mention the reload times for a 37 mm gun (if you didnt change it already).

[MarKr]

@Mark: Have you ever really checked the stuarts HE rounds? damage and especially the AoE? It is, at best, sniping single soldiers. AoE doesnt really exist actually..... not to mention the reload times for a 37 mm gun (if you didnt change it already).

Yes...the AoE is same as of Sherman HE, basic damage is half of Sherman, the damage drop from center to the edge is higher for Stuart, but the HE upgrade costs half of the Sherman's s...Yes the Stuart is easier to kill but it is also cheaper...or am I missing something?

[JimQwilleran]

Nerf M16

M16: basic damage is smaller than Ostwind, has no HE nor AoE. Yes the M16 is easier to kill but it is also cheaper...or am I missing something?

[Krieger Blitzer]

We compare the M16 with the Ostwind since both are AA units...

I wouldn't say the M16 is "fragile" like Hawks said. Because, it Vets up too fast and can soak up many Schrecks when Vetted... For its cheap cost and early availability, the Quad HT is doubtlessly the best AA unit in the game. Fits the role with absolute perfection!

As an AA unit, the Quad HT is often Vet 3; not to mention that all the US docs can field it without any limitations.. unlike the Puma. While i have never seen the Ostwind veteran at all... Does it even gain veterancy btw?

I am not saying Quad HT should have accuracy nerf or whatever... But at least should be restricted or limited. Ostwind needs slight buff, it's not as good as supposed.

[JimQwilleran]

We compare the M16 with the Ostwind since both are AA units...

I wouldn't say the M16 is "fragile" like Hawks said. Because, it Vets up too fast and can soak up many Schrecks when Vetted... For its cheap cost and early availability, the Quad HT is doubtlessly the best AA unit in the game. Fits the role with absolute perfection!

As an AA unit, the Quad HT is often Vet 3; not to mention that all the US docs can field it without any limitations.. unlike the Puma. While i have never seen the Ostwind veteran at all... Does it even gain veterancy btw?

I am not saying Quad HT should have accuracy nerf or whatever... But at least should be restricted or limited. Ostwind needs slight buff, it's not as good as supposed.

How many shrecks? 3? It has a moderate chance to survive 1, most of the time dies after 1.
Is there any limit for pumas? Anyway why the hell would I want to spam more than 2 pumas or M16?

[Krieger Blitzer]

How many shrecks? 3? It has a moderate chance to survive 1, most of the time dies after 1.

Over repair + Vet 3 = 3 Schrecks, yes... And this is way too much.

Is there any limit for pumas? Anyway why the hell would I want to spam more than 2 pumas or M16?

A common Armor doc tactic, is to spam 4 Quad Half-trucks together with the SP... No inf or any planes could ever touch u this way! I have done that successfully more than a single time.. no HE Shermans were even needed.

Armor doc shouldn't have Quad HTs, but perhaps only the M15A1, AB doc doesn't need mobile AA at all... Only inf doc should have them; with a limit to only 2 at a time.

But no nerf to accuracy or anything like that...

Yet, remains the question.. is the Ostwind even capable of gaining any veterancy levels btw? I have never seen it veteran... Not even Vet1 actually.

[kwok]

Sounds like Warhawks and I are on the exact same page.
I wonder if anyone realizes that axis has a bunch of variations of pak half tracks available around the same as the quad... Shreks are not the only counter to vehicles... Granted the quad is still really strong for what it does but they aren't gods.

Looking back, I think I do recognize the moving accuracy penalty on the quad. I like your alternatives Markr. Or maybe even extending reload time so there's a window of opportunity to attack or at least a moment to breathe between harassment.

[Warhawks97]

Ok


Lets talk about vehicle vets. Just had a talk (still have) with tiger. We talked about vets and i remembered that vehicle vets are from vcoh.

that means that the quad cal 50 HT gets speed boost by 25% with vet 1 and accuracy and damage boost with vet 2 and 3. Maybe this is the issue?

Greyhound is usless vets for BK. Speed boost with vet 1 is ok but then pen boost and damage boost for main gun so far. pen boost is useless since its gun wont pen most things at all.

Saying that, Puma and quad cal 50 simply have most powerfull vet boosts for vehicles that increases survivability (Puma), speed (M16) and damage (both).

@Tiger: Becuase they are AA units? lol?


So you tell me that Ostwind, Wirbelwind, Crusader, M16, M15, Puma, HT with 20 mm flak are all the same? Srsly?`they have all different pro and cons. Some have rof, some rof and Aoe damage, some big shells, others only HE and rof, others mix of powerfull gun etc etc......

[Krieger Blitzer]

The main problem with Quad HTs is their numbers... 3 US docs can field unlimited numbers of Quad HTs and keep spamming them all the time.. no matters how much nerf the Quad would receive in terms of AA capabilities against Axis planes or anti infantry power, as they would be still considered OP after all. Due to the fact that they are not limited at all and don't even require a doc. Puma at least requires you to pick up a doctrine... And isn't available in Def doc, instead you get the Gepard which has no turret.

So again; Quads should be restricted to only 1 or 2 docs max. Should be also limited in numbers.. no other nerfs are needed.
M15A1 should be like the Gepard... Available also for a certain doctrine only.

While the main problem with Ostwinds, is that they are not cost effective.. has so much accuracy problems while moving... And does have no suppression, even limited to only 2 at a time. While I also doubt if it does ever gain any veterancy levels btw, looks like never. [Bug?]