AA Units

[MarKr]

We compare the M16 with the Ostwind since both are AA units...

Why don't you compare M16 to 88s? They are AAs too...Or do you mean they are "moveable" AAs? Then why did you choose to compare exactely to Ostwind? There are so many...Puma, Wirblewind, Flakpanzer 38, Opelblitz, that Def doc HT with flak, Moebelwagen... As I said it would have made way more sense to compare the M16 to Wirblewind since they have similar weapons. M16/Wirblewind = rapid fire weapons with lower accuracy. Ostwind/bofors/ Moebelwagen/Flakpaner 38 etc. = lower rate of fire but higher accuracy and damage. The weapons work differently.

While i have never seen the Ostwind veteran at all... Does it even gain veterancy btw?

Yes it does. And it takes longer to gain Vet levels because it gets better bonuses from Vet. And actually has 4 Vet levels while M16 "only" has 3.

Over repair + Vet 3 = 3 Schrecks, yes... And this is way too much.

Hmmm...Panzerschreck damage 90-120...modifier against M16 x3 (that is 270-360). 3 schreck hits are 810-1080 damage. M16 basic HP is 315, with full overrepair it is 440 HP in total...that means that even if the Schreck always rolled minimal damage value, fully overrepaired M16 cannot survive more than 2 hits (as in 2nd hit always kills it). Schrecks "critical hits" on halftracks can either cause "secondary weapon destroyed" or kill it outright. M16 has no secondary, so as I said - second hit always kills it.
And just for your information Vet levels do not make M16 take less damage or make it harder to hit. 1st level givesit movement speed bonus, 2nd level adds accuracy and 3rd adds damage.

[kwok]

For the record, I had vet 3 Ostwind before. BLitz ability plus Ostwind equals 3.7mm machine gun. Hilarious.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think MarKr didn't read my last post before he posts... As we are not exactly "comparing" the Ostwind with the Quad HT.
Both are AA units with different categories.. but we are here just talking about 2 separate problems, which are:-

1)

The main problem with Quad HTs is their numbers... 3 US docs can field unlimited numbers of Quad HTs and keep spamming them all the time.. no matters how much nerf the Quad would receive in terms of AA capabilities against Axis planes or anti infantry power, as they would be still considered OP after all. Due to the fact that they are not limited at all and don't even require a doc. Puma at least requires you to pick up a doctrine... And isn't available in Def doc, instead you get the Gepard which has no turret.

So again; Quads should be restricted to only 1 or 2 docs max. Should be also limited in numbers.. no other nerfs are needed.
M15A1 should be like the Gepard... Available also for a certain doctrine only.

2)

While the main problem with Ostwinds, is that they are not cost effective.. has so much accuracy problems while moving... And does have no suppression, even limited to only 2 at a time. While I also doubt if it does ever gain any veterancy levels btw, looks like never. [Bug?]

You can remove the last part. As long as you are sure they gain veterancy, but i honestly never saw it...

[MarKr]

I think MarKr didn't read my last post before he posts... As we are not exactly "comparing" the Ostwind with the Quad HT.
Both are AA units with different categories.. but we are here just talking about 2 separate problems,

no, you manged to write those before I finished my post... But anyway you might talk about two separate problems since your last post, because before that your main arguments were completely different.
First you say that M16 needs a nerf or restriction to single doc because Ostwind is easy to kill by AT teams, has little supression and accuracy while moving
Then you say the problem is no limit and compare it to the limit of Ostwind for some reason.
Then you joggle between limiting the unit and restricting it to a single doctrine.
Then you suggest that the problem is also in its endurance (dying to 3 Schrecks) and the speed of vetting which supports its survivability (which I proved is not true)
And then you go back to what you just said... So how am I supoese to know what you consider the real problem each time? A little bit more coherence would not hurt.

And you say that Ostwind is not cost effective... I'd say it is, people just mustn't use it the same way as people use M16.

[Krieger Blitzer]

All you said is true As I was just throwing different ideas and various reasoning... But anyway, pretty much my last post is the thing! ^^

[Warhawks97]

The main problem with Quad HTs is their numbers... 3 US docs can field unlimited numbers of Quad HTs and keep spamming them all the time.. no matters how much nerf the Quad would receive in terms of AA capabilities against Axis planes or anti infantry power, as they would be still considered OP after all. Due to the fact that they are not limited at all and don't even require a doc. Puma at least requires you to pick up a doctrine... And isn't available in Def doc, instead you get the Gepard which has no turret.

Where did i mention its anti air power. I talked about its vet boosts that come from vcoh. Bk doc vet boosts work with percentages arround 5%, maybe 6%. In high vets sometimes with 15 or so. vcoh vehicle vets work with values of 25-50% at each vet up.

again think about ammo cost..... see below why it could help.

Also Ostwind not cost effective? It has always been my fav AA tank as it combined lower cost as Wirbelwind with decent gun damage, good AP rounds and the ability to havoc emplacments. 25 airplane kills sometimes for a single ostwind... idk how 400 MP can be too much here. Its just not a skirmisher vehicle like the M16 is. There you have Puma..... and def doc... dude def doc is not in first place meant to be highly flexible. And it has probably better break through punch as any US doc in the later stage.


also who consideres it as OP if i can ask. I saw sukin blaming the combo of M16 and T48 HT (or what its designation is).

So again; Quads should be restricted to only 1 or 2 docs max. Should be also limited in numbers.. no other nerfs are needed.
M15A1 should be like the Gepard... Available also for a certain doctrine only.

But all docs have possible counters. Puma with 75 mm might be the prime example. Good gun and shreds inf good enough with HE.

What about adding some ammo cost to production cost? 3 of them would cost almost 100 ammo which in mid game is a lot, especially as inf docs opens his first advance with off map arty and AB often with calli jeeps. And in late game if a M16 spam bothers you just bother back with appropriate counters.... 50 mm, Puma idk. I would fail to see the logic if you now say that they are not late game units. They are just as late game as M16 is.

While the main problem with Ostwinds, is that they are not cost effective.. has so much accuracy problems while moving... And does have no suppression, even limited to only 2 at a time. While I also doubt if it does ever gain any veterancy levels btw, looks like never. [Bug?]

lol?


@markr. This stuart is more like killing at best one men in a shot while often not even harming the other soldiers. Also reload time of 6 seconds (if you didnt change it). Better reload speed for such a small gun might work already, idk. That way it might kill something before dying outright since speed does not belong to its strenght.... anyway, thats another story.

For the record, I had vet 3 Ostwind before. BLitz ability plus Ostwind equals 3.7mm machine gun. Hilarious.

i know. It shoots and reloads damn fast. excellent when going with storms together against emplacments and inf.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, look... I don't think that such a matter really requires so much discussion in the first place.. let me just say my opinion shortly for the last time; we don't have to argue so much about it.
The Quad HT shouldn't be available in all US docs just like how the Puma isn't.
Specifically Armor doc, because the Quad is so much OP when used in Armor doc.. and this leads to less use of HE Shermans... Which shouldn't be the case. Armor doc could have the M15A1 instead!
AB doesn't need either any of them, they have the AA turrets.. but they shouldn't be possible to build since the start anymore.
Inf doc needs it, i can't see where is the problem if we restrict the Quad HTs to only a certain doctrine... It's ridiculous how 3 US docs are able to spam unlimited numbers of the exact same thing.

I am totally convinced with Sukin's suggestion of restricting and limiting Quads HTs. As I believe that nerfing them by modifying their accuracy values or whatever isn't a good idea and won't solve anything... Since thy are available in high numbers.


About Ostwind, the way how this thing shoots in BK is completely wrong btw... It does have a 37mm flak cannon.. but it keeps shooting so rapidly like 20mm guns. Which is realistically wrong! It should actually have significantly less rate of fire but bigger shell explosion.. I mean, each round should mostly explode just like the HE shells from the 37mm AT gun... Ostwind in BK is currently unreal.

[MarKr]

The Quad HT shouldn't be available in all US docs just like how the Puma isn't.
Specifically Armor doc, because the Quad is so much OP when used in Armor doc.. and this leads to less use of HE Shermans... Which shouldn't be the case. Armor doc could have the M15A1 instead!

Your oppinion...but still the reasin here is "Some unit of Axis is not available to every doctrine so This unit of Allies shouldn't either."

AB doesn't need either any of them, they have the AA turrets.. but they shouldn't be possible to build since the start anymore.

OK...so after this change AB would be able to build AA turrets after some upgrade/unlock/building, while completely missing any mobile AA unit...But then, you know - because AB would have it this way, Luft has buildable AA turrets so they should not have Wirblewind, armored cars (those capable of AA fire) nor Opel blitz. Defensive doctrine has buildable AA turrets so they should not have Flakpanzer 38, Moebelwagen nor the HT with flak...

It's ridiculous how 3 US docs are able to spam unlimited numbers of the exact same thing.

...hmm...three WH docs are able to spam Volks (which are exact same thing) - especially with field hospitals, three PE docs can spam PGrens/Assault grens (which are exactely the same thing)...just any faction has something that can be spammed...but just because M16s are useful, they need a nerf...

As I believe that nerfing them by modifying their accuracy values or whatever isn't a good idea and won't solve anything... Since thy are available in high numbers.

Do you consider spam of quad.50cal emplacements OP? Because if M16s get the nerf while moving, they will only be effective while standing still and then they are not much more than the aforementioned emplacement...if the cooldown and brust length, while moving, gets reduced to e.g. 1/3, then, while moving, three M16s would have approximately same effectiveness as one M16 in the current state. Even bringing it to 1/2 instead of 1/3 would significantely hurt its offensive capabilities, or at least require way more micro to pull off an offense in the way it is done now. And if you spam them I really want to see the offensive with like three of them + support units...for max effectivity you would need to give the M16 order to move, once it starts shooting, give it order to stop (so that the moving nerfs won't apply) once it stops shooting, give it order to move again...and do this with three M16s simultaneusly.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Im fine with M16 nerf as well, just do whatever you think is right, but this thing definately deserves a downgrade, its a real game ruiner, kills all infantry and PE trucks in a blink of an eye, it even can take on Pak front to front ocasionally by blowing its crew with a single burst.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright MarKr, i can also agree with Sukin here.. do what you think is right or best. I have gave u a various collection of ideas though! But if you think that nerfing their accuracy while moving is the correct thing to do... Then why not.

But please take care of this as well:-

AB doc shouldn't be able to build these bullshit AA turrets since the start; should first require the AB Engineers or something. Same goes for Brits, they shouldn't be able to build 17p emplacements by default.. but only after choosing the doc.

Because, this way.. in maps such as Linden, AB can block the city part first 3 minutes of the game really... While Luft doc needs Luft Pios first in order to build the equivalent 20mm flaks.
And also, CW can build those 17p emplacements first then choose RAF doc >.<

Regarding the Ostwind, I would be happy if it could just shoot differently.. or more realistically like I stated above.
But I can understand that this would be too much work since u will have to rework the Ostwind's gun completely... So, just nevermind about it; fine as it is.

[JimQwilleran]

Im fine with M16 nerf as well, just do whatever you think is right, but this thing definately deserves a downgrade, its a real game ruiner, kills all infantry and PE trucks in a blink of an eye, it even can take on Pak front to front ocasionally by blowing its crew with a single burst.

Can you please give us any other reason than "it killed my inf - nerf it?" Because I still think that you dont care about balance at all, only came here to cry. Also have you forgotten, that in one of the latest patches M16's price was increased? Can't you see you are doing the exactly the same thing as "nerf AB bombs - they always kill tanks"? But in this case, you like your bombs, so it doesn't bother you.

What if some unit bothers me? Will you devs change it just because I say "It should be like that because it works in a way I dont like"?

I am not questioning the suggestion itself now, I am questioning totally flawed reasoning that has nothing to do with making this game more balanced and different tactical approach friendly.

Because, this way.. in maps such as Linden, AB can block the city part first 3 minutes of the game really... While Luft doc needs Luft Pios first in order to build the equivalent 20mm flaks.

You know that you can actually build a mortar you know? And you know it has a longer range than US mortar you know? Did you actually know it lol?

[Krieger Blitzer]

You know that you can actually build a mortar you know? And you know it has a longer range than US mortar you know? Did you actually know it lol?

And? How does this justify that AB AA turrets should be possible to construct as soon as barracks? Well, then... Would it be fine if the PE PanzerGrenadiers could build 20mm flaks since the start too?! And no need for Luft Pios anymore?! No, it wouldn't be fine.

Can you please give us any other reason than "it killed my inf - nerf it?" Because I still think that you dont care about balance at all, only came here to cry. Also have you forgotten, that in one of the latest patches M16's price was increased? Can't you see you are doing the exactly the same thing as "nerf AB bombs - they always kill tanks"? But in this case, you like your bombs, so it doesn't bother you.

What if some unit bothers me? Will you devs change it just because I say "It should be like that because it works in a way I dont like"?

Sukin was right when he asked to buff the AB planes.. or did u like how they used to perform in the past? They were totally useless indeed... Therefore it was necessary to fix them; however, it was slightly over buffed.. and so, the devs will carefully tune them down once again... While also adjusting their cost. But i honestly can't see how this is even related to the subject at all... It's a completely different case!

You didn't like how Storm Troops were spawning into emplacements, you then started a topic.. and then the devs accepted to disable it after all. Now; would u also consider this as "crying" too? I wonder if it does also seem like "Hey, i don't like Storms.. nerf them!" Do u think the devs decided to disable that thing just because u didn't like it? Definitely not.
But this is actually how everything works here, i mean, that's why the forum was created in the first place.. as people will start complaining about balance issues.. each in his own perspective... Then devs will take a look and later decide whether if something is need to be done or not.

I am not questioning the suggestion itself now, I am questioning totally flawed reasoning that has nothing to do with making this game more balanced and different tactical approach friendly.

So, is rolling up freely with Quads in mid game while crushing everything the opponent has got, is recognized as tactical approach? This thing deals huge damage even while moving. There are obviously clear enough reasons why we want to nerf it...

I had a game with Sukin today btw, and he hits my Quad with 50mm pak.. only 40% damage and no critical... Same thing happens more often vs Greyhounds. But wait a second, i am not saying this needs to be fixed or whatever.. just pointing out the fact that Quads are absolutely durable.. too cheap, easily obtained, extremely reliable and available in all US docs. Slight accuracy nerf while moving won't hurt...

[Warhawks97]

About Ostwind, the way how this thing shoots in BK is completely wrong btw... It does have a 37mm flak cannon.. but it keeps shooting so rapidly like 20mm guns. Which is realistically wrong! It should actually have significantly less rate of fire but bigger shell explosion.. I mean, each round should mostly explode just like the HE shells from the 37mm AT gun... Ostwind in BK is currently unreal.

150-250 rounds per minute. Nothing wrong with rof. The single 20 mm flak 38 are the weapons being simply off. They had a rof of 450 rounds per min. Almost that of (or exactly that of) the Browning 1917 HMG. The single 20 mm are the most "unknown fantasie weapons" in BK. Strange accuracy, damage rof and penetration (often penning units like cromwell and doing decent damage). Basically i feel like having a realistic bofors gun when using a single 20 mm

[Frost]

if you guys were talking about m16 eff then you didn't see PE 20mm kwk its the same thing as m16 and even with more range why only nerf m16 or make it even worst while moving you had pumas and for PE 20mm kwk why not nerf them while moving only nerf m16 isn't PE 20mm kwk can be built by all tactics why no nerf it?

i used to play MOW which i like it because more realistic things m16 was even way more eff against inf it was made to be like that so after all

[JimQwilleran]

Actually in MoW Quad 0.50 is very inaccurate.

[Frost]

Actually in MoW Quad 0.50 is very inaccurate.

and it rekt inf without cover so fast no matter what the type was )

[Frost]

maybe you thought its mow2 im talking about 1 here and its fine there also it is quad 50.cal do you expect it to hit the target at once?