units

[Warhawks97]

With his 380mm rocket shells (350 Kg) who can travel up to 6 km, + 150mm frontal armor... it makes the churchill 290mm mortar spigot tiny in comparison, the damaging effect of the SturmTiger rocket would be more like the V1 in game, lol, many years ago we tried to implemented it, but it was impossible, PvP's games would be cursed with that unit, even if we slow the fire rate as hell, without talking how boring it will be in game for players who bought that "arty sitting duck" Panzer for quite a lot of CP's doing anything than waiting to reload or get smashed by airstrikes, and making this unit look like the Stupa is ridiculous, the Stupa is doing a great job and fit perfectly the PvP Bk gameplay.

We can't implement units in Bk just for the sake of having units, it need to fit a purpose, every units in bk, even if some are not used often have a purpose, and they are not breaking the balance, this is not (for now) the case of the SturmTiger, actually i can even tell you more about it, for the little story, when EF team tried to implement the ST in their mod it was a catastrophy regarding the balance, and their damage setings are less realistic than ours, so imagine, they had to remove it pretty quickly from the game, and having a ST acting like a Stupa with similar datas is a complete nonsense.

Didnt cause the Sturmtiger huge trouble within the old BK crew. Of what i heared that was one reason why the old BK crew broke apart. Maybe i am wrong but there was some kind of theory arround in BK.


And AVRE is not comparable to Sturmtiger. The Spigot had a large calibre but the shell itself was completely different with different purpose. Out of 18 kg total shell weight it carried approx 12,7 kg explosives.

The Sturmtiger shot shells with a weight of 345kg and 125 kg of that is explosive substance. The Stupa fired a 38kg (8 kg of that was cartrigde) shell. So less than 30 or 25 kilo of high explosives. Just get these numbers and what it would actually mean. The V1 carried almost 850 KG of high explosives (and yes, in game the explosion is probably still too small).

So with a sturmtiger we could expect to annihilate entire forces with each shot.... tanks, inf, all fortifications.... everything. How to balance? Endless reload times, unrealistic low damage and AoE? but wouldnt it then be a "different looking stupa"?

So i agree that there is little sense and would just cause many more issues as it would solve. We could just add it for "fun" i think. Maybe giving it the name "Just for fun RE annihilator".

[Panzerblitz1]

Didnt cause the Sturmtiger huge trouble within the old BK crew. Of what i heared that was one reason why the old BK crew broke apart. Maybe i am wrong but there was some kind of theory arround in BK.

No it did not create any trouble at all, we couldn't agree where to put and balance this unit in game, same as today.

[XAHTEP39]

In this topic about "units" with active presence of R-DEVs, I return to dialog about WH Schwimmwagen - http://forum.bkmod.net/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=502

Currently
PE has Schwimm with different abilities and one MG,
WH has Schwimm with one MG only and passenger sit;
But primary - Schwimms are in both German factions.

So, there is model of Kubelwagen - most common german off-road car - there is in COH1 EF.
Kubel realized with one MG and one passenger sit :

and with two MGs without passenger sit:


Suggest to discuss: is it possible to implement Kubelwagen instead WH Schwimmwagen ?

[Panzerblitz1]

XAHTEP39 stop asking for models we don't have, its getting boring.

[MarKr]

@Panzerblitz1: See? I told you

[Panzerblitz1]

@Panzerblitz1: See? I told you

Yes

[XAHTEP39]

XAHTEP39 stop asking for models we don't have, its getting boring.

It is just a discuss, I do not put an "ultimatum"; it is intresting to hear viewpoint of R-DEVs.

I know about model of Kubel in the EF therefore cited the example, that this unit is a real (not as Maus or Tortoise), is completed and modelled (not as... hmmm... Sdkfz.247 and 254), is another than Schwimm.
... although Kubel is in EF-mod, their property...

Okey guys, I know about old patch model of Bk-mod team - Sdkfz.250/11 with 28-mm PzB.41 (several hundreds) - http://www.moddb.com/mods/blitzkrieg/images/new-model-sdkfz-25011-with-28-mm-pzb-41#imagebox

Spoiler: show

Now it may to be as rewarded unit of Sdkfz.221 with 28-mm PzB.41 (several tens) , like as principe of current Sdkfz.222 and Sdkfz.250/9 ?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Dude, they apparently don't have the permission to use the Kubelwagen's model from the Eastern Front team.

Not to mention that even if it was available.. it would be nonsense to allow it as a replacement of the WH Schwimmwagen btw... Since it's more like the SAS Jeep!

[XAHTEP39]

Dude, they apparently don't have the permission to use the Kubelwagen's model from the Eastern Front team.

Not to mention that even if it was available.. it would be nonsense to allow it as a replacement of the WH Schwimmwagen btw... Since it's more like the SAS Jeep!

I guess so...

2 MGs is not necessary, it is a for discuss - for example, "default" single MG, pay 75ammo - to place second MG

[Jalis]

It is a strange logic to admit V1 is not a balance breaker but sturmtiger is.
V1 is an off map arty with unlimited range, it cant be intercepted and is supposed to deal more damage than the Sturmtiger.

At coh, if we admit a 6 km range, sturmtiger range would be around 120. Fact it can fire in fow or not depend enterely of devs will.

Unlike V1, sturm must be at range, and vehicle can be intercepted and destroyed, not to say target can be predictable due to range limit and analize of the vehicle travel.
Even from an historical point of view Sturmtiger is more acceptable than V1, that never have been a tactical missile used on battle field. V1 have for it only to be a Vcoh remnant.

Point it is just a reasonning. For me it s a long time I have kicked the V1. Form memory Xali was fiercly against sturmtiger, when Ruhr and the Halifax guy** wanted to add it, but I dont remember if it was part of the propaganda / terror reform that never occured because of team clash.
Now perhaps there is a reason for sturmtiger ban I dont know, especially I could miss some PVP specificities.

Now, I dont feel wanting news units for have something new is a good wish. For sturmtiger ... really what is the need at bk for PVP to have one more arty ? You ve plenty already.

** sorry I have forget his nickname at that moment.

[Panzerblitz1]

All wrong Jalis, you're mixing everything, Xali with some team members were for the Sturm, Ruhr and others team members absolutely against it, we wanted to replace the v1 at that time, yes, and again, we couldn't found a purpose to it, also to makes things right, Propaganda Doc. is a total different story, Xalibur didnt stop to .dev the mod because of that! Its ridiculous, he stopped for personal and professional reasons, and there is no "theory" with the sturmtiger at all.
End of the story.

**Halftrack leader of BotB mod is the owner of the Sturmtiger, not Halifax

[Jalis]

I could have inversed who was for and who was against ? perhaps. OK, Ok Ruhr and Xali had violent dispute. Ruhr had leave, Xali stopped to dev and abandonned the forum, and Exactly at the same time, conviniants personals and Professionals events occured to explain his departure. Who care anyway, I m probably alone with you to had been active at bk forum at this time and be still active.

For Halifax nova scotia guy I never said it owned Sturm model, just he worked with Ruhr at that time. he lets some trace of its work on some BK file, icon for westwall pioneer and osttruppen IIRC.

If we let aside these old events of few importance, Sturmtiger at BK in pvp is not more a balance breaking than the V1, even less. On an other hand it would be dangerous to implement it, just because of psychologic impact. PVP tend to explain defeats with disbalanced game features rather than lack of skill.
Last there is plenty vehicles that are rarely or never used, And I feel sometime new models are asked, without think about how useful it could be.

[Panzerblitz1]

Jalis, there are things you don't know, simply because to know those things you would have to be a team member and have access in the private Dev. intern forum, im not throwing rocks at you here, im just telling you IAM aware and more able to tell you what is real, what is fantasy, and presuming things isn't often the reality, lets come back to the main subject here.

[heinrich_fritz13]

no... i said make it short range lik the ST in coh2...

[kwok]

On an other hand it would be dangerous to implement it, just because of psychologic impact. PVP tend to explain defeats with disbalanced game features rather than lack of skill.
Last there is plenty vehicles that are rarely or never used, And I feel sometime new models are asked, without think about how useful it could be.

My opinion as well plus a bit more. The pvp impact will be axis players drifting their strategies more towards single units flag shipping instead of strategies of combined arms and formation. There's talk around that says that allies have more comprehensive unit/army composition than axis, which I can hardly believe. It's ludicrous to think that wm with docs specifically designed to be well rounded compared to the specialized docs of allies to be "less comprehensive".
Example, we talk about how allies have the OP quad and OP at half track. Did you know wm has a half track that has a mounted AA gun, mostly equivalent to the AA ht that Americans have except can shoot 360, not just rear facing? If not that unit, there's also the puma with near inf damaging capabilities and better anti car damage compared to the quad. As for the AT half track, how hard is it to just get a stug which is as good or better than the at ht and can even act as a counter to the at ht because I can absorb one hit and chase the at ht down for a one shot. There are also endless half tracks with AT capability. There's even an At half track that can deploy paks. You can't get more AT than that.
Anecdote time. I was playing with a teammate once who was luft and was getting frustrated of the ab air strikes on Duclair. I told him to build AA and he just kept getting frustrated at me for saying such noob things. Eventually I told him exactly where the aa can be built by luft pios he had all game (cuz every luft player chooses that branch first) and he plopped down an AA emplacement, hard countered the ab strat especially on such a small map. There are so many units, do we really need to add more and just drive MORE flag shipping?

[Panzerblitz1]

If the unit is fun to play, and do not brake anything why not? more units, more choices, it is not really how much units we could put in BK, its how much units who are fun to play with a real pvp purpose in BK, the perfect exemple is the Panzer III Ausf. N who fit perfectly in the spot we chose fo him, it gives this little spicy ingredient we like without braking anything, all need to be well thought, yes in BK there is some units who are less played in pvp, but doesn't mean they are useless, far from it, its just the way people want to play, new units has to have a logical purpose behind them.

Also almost all coh units are already present in BK world, yes some aren't and are the sole property of Eastern Front who are the last who still produce 3D models for coh1, and nothing is easy when its question of sharing models, but eventually its happening, like the Panzer III, and thats cool thx to them.

[kwok]

Sure, I see your points. Panzer iii, I will have to disagree is a good example because it really seems more like an aesthetic change as it will be pretty much identical to something that exists (assuming what markr said in the other post holds true through to release).

So you mentioned "unless it breaks balance, why not add fun" which I agree with. But I want to argue on the first conditional and also ask how you'd define "balance breaking". I don't want to sound repetitive, I'm going to try to rephrase what I said earlier to match your statement. If I fail to explain it clearly, apologies in advance for clogging the forum with wasteful text.

One definition of balance breaking is if the chances of winning heavily favor one to another. This is inherently hard to measure so we find proxies like general meta change impact. Generally, the more it impacts the meta, the more likely it can disturb balance. It's not a perfect indicator of balance, but risk of balance breaking.

Adding this new unit I think can really disrupt the meta because it would further encourage flag shipping. When pvp meta moves towards this, you get a bunch of balance complaints about single units not being able to perform tasks alone. For example, reg5 acting as all around powerful infantry capable of any role, this brought up asks to buff the durability of reg5 so they can keep acting as flagships. It's as if all other units fall obsolete and balance discussions become reg5 vs all instead of axis as a compositional whole vs allies. If we keep going down this path of discussion, then there will always be balance problems because changes will be in large leaps instead of minor adjustments. Lots of units are forgotten, they won't be considered in discussions, they fall out of meta and as large leaps of changes go on, they will come up somehow because they haven't kept up with the moving environment, then ANOTHER big change will be made. This silo'd thinking and general flagship attitude only pushes the cycle and we will never get balance.

[Panzerblitz1]

Sure, I see your points. Panzer iii, I will have to disagree is a good example because it really seems more like an aesthetic change as it will be pretty much identical to something that exists.

You can disagree, there will be some little changes compare to the Panzer IV Ausf E, even if they are similar units, and yes they were pretty identical in datas.
Regarding the balance, i do think bk is more balanced than ever, it took times, but its there now, so yes some players will be crushed, some not, after its a matter of pvp skills, luck, supports, there is so much happening in a pvp game that you never know, but nobody now can say, Bk is Pro Axis, or US, or CW, and thats a big change, it wasn't always the case.

Balance is when everybody can win a pvp game with any Factions and Doctrines, something we have now in Bk.

[Krieger Blitzer]

There's talk around that says that allies have more comprehensive unit/army composition than axis, which I can hardly believe. It's ludicrous to think that wm with docs specifically designed to be well rounded compared to the specialized docs of allies to be "less comprehensive".

Axis docs probably used to be more comprehensive in the past, but currently no more... TH doc for example used to be more comprehensive than nowadays.. as it used to have early Panthers, also with Zimmerit and so on.. now however; TH doc is obviously for pure tank hunting.. this is the only thing this doc is good at!
That was just an example.

[JimQwilleran]

I also think that bk is becoming more and more balanced.

[kwok]

@panzerblitz
I agree that bk is mostly balanced. I think we both are saying the same. And it is because the reason that the game is mostly balanced that I'm against most new units such as the ST. It is too much sudden change.
In general I am against large changes. There are few places that I think there could be stat balances, but those come minor to other fundamental problems I see in the mod. One of them being the generally large changes that constantly happen becuase of only a few loud mouths.

@tiger
I will agree with PE as a whole being less comprehensive than wm and pretty much equal with USA. And personally, I think it's the right direction. Fundamentally, I think either all factions should be well rounded OR all specialized, else balance problems will always exist. As of now, it feels like a bad mix. But this is drifting off topic and not even the largest balance problems I see. Example: mod is catered to large maps but balances are catered to small maps.

P.s.
I found tank hunter pretty sufficient at killing inf, particularly raf doc. Marked target plus SS plus hodgekiss with large tanks being the battering rams really make enemy inf useless. Not as effective as other docs but definitely sufficient in being a doc purely for tank hunting only. I treat TH as either a battering ram, walking defensive wall, tank hunting, or fuel bullying.

[Panzerblitz1]

[quote="kwok"]@panzerblitz
I agree that bk is mostly balanced. I think we both are saying the same. And it is because the reason that the game is mostly balanced that I'm against most new units such as the ST. It is too much sudden change.[\quote]

All new units is sudden changes, especially big ones, always.

Well, if its the Sturmtiger you are talking about, frankly it will not be more ridiculous than the v1 in game, believe me, don't you think so? I mean, regarding the balance and tactics, you prefer the extremelly precised V1 missile, (the v1 fell from the sky When consuming all is gazoline, and was far, very far from being precised) or a new cool unit in game with the same destruction capacity of the v1 but can be disabled, destroyed? ( v1 damage totally unrealistic in a realistic mod who look like more the sturmtiger 380mm shell damage to me by the way).
So, What is for you the more logical way to go, i mean the more exciting way, without braking anything at all in game, at the contrary, interesting no

[kwok]

If the question isn't rhetorical, the V1. It exists, it is known and understood, it has already been accounted for in the meta. It has only come up a few times in balance discussion and is rarely seen in real game.

But your question is a loaded question because it assumes that if I were a hypothetical dev, I'm aiming for realistic vs unrealistic and exciting vs unexciting. A question that reflects my thoughts more is:
Do you stride for a balanced game with incremental changes, or adding units for excitement with a high risk of upsetting balance for a game with a high chance someone will complain about?
I'd choose incremental small changes over large ones.

[Panzerblitz1]

Kwok you don't undertstand what i mean, did you read what i wrote more up regarding the fact that i didn't want to implement the ST because of balance? but if we found something good for it, its worth the try, and again, people aren't whining because of the V1, the V1 is soo silly in all points, thats its still unbelievable its still in bk, and yes it fullfil his purpose in game as a big off map arty Kaboom, but the unit itself is a nonsense and has been removed from all serious mods long time ago.

And yes we were talking about it back in the old days, because currently the V1 is the only "funny" unit in Bk, replacing it by The Sturmltiger is not a new story either.

Do you stride for a balanced game with incremental changes, or adding units for excitement with a high risk of upsetting balance for a game with a high chance someone will complain about?

I choose the balance, the logic, and the path of realism bk has been made since day 1 without putting the gameplay in geopardy, i choose the fun to "maybe" have a new model in game and a smarter way to do that V1 job, i choose to try something else for excitement without braking the hard work done on the balance, i try to please bk players to give them new toys, things we didn't have for ages now, like i said, if its worth the try, if we got something good and decide to do such a move in Bk regarding the ST.

[kwok]

No, I think we are saying the same thing.

@panzerblitz
I think we both are saying the same. And it is because the reason that the game is mostly balanced that I'm against most new units such as the ST. It is too much sudden change.

I think that you logically took on a devil's advocate position, so I was continuing to argue further and back up why one decision was chosen over the other with more specific examples. Just in case other readers weren't convinced enough.