OP M36

[Krieger Blitzer]

Just played 2 games recently, and I figured out that the Slugger is absolutely OP... The slugger is often used rarely.. it's not common through pvp games for some reason.. it's the version of the Jackson with Wolverine chassis; costs only 110 fuel and about 700 MP! Available after only 4 CPs.

There must be something wrong about it, which is obviously the armor... The armor of this thing is actually better as that of Tigers and Panthers somehow. Can ambush and do flank speed ability as well, down here throughout both of the following games.. the Slugger reached Vet4 only after 4 tank kills. It also bounced Tiger1's 88mm guns (at least 7 times each game), 75mm guns as well as even Schrecks. Has anyone buffed it since last patch???!!! It's an absolute tank killer now.. simply, fking holy.
I recently myself began to use it after that too.. and I was honestly surprised with the capability of this thing, the rate of fire is also insane as long as in ambush... The Slugger's awesomeness proves us all that it's a mighty powerful tank.
Actually, the Armor doc player this way doesn't even need the SP anymore with the existence of such a Slugger...

Note:-
I am fine with the Jackson, which works more like a Firefly.. as it can't ambush and doesn't have flank speed. The Comet has flank speed but can't ambush on the other hand! Now, the Slugger somehow does have flank speed as well as ambush and also a strong armor... How could this ever manage to happen? It's definitely better than the Pershing too.
And doubtlessly the BEST tank destroyer of the whole game...

I was never willing to make a topic about it, but after the 2nd replay which is the last played game "temp.rec" I simply couldn't stand myself after that. Went a little bit too mad to be honest!
And even personally now, I usually prefer the Slugger over the SP itself while playing Armor doc my own.
It does also have +5 more default range than most other tanks apparently...

[RommelsAfrikaKorps]

I agree to some points that tiger brought up. however i will also try to explain some things. first of all the fast veterancy, i dont know how most american armor doc players use their command points but i will reveal my way so everyone that sees the replays has better understanding of what is going on. first the normal 1CP has to be invested in M4 the second i invest on the hellcat, next 2 i use for the m36. i like to unlock it early since i like to play matches with high fuel points and panthers and tigers show up early sometimes, after that i unlock the one that has armored cars able to capture points mainly for the one that follows which is veteran tank crews. i find it imperative to have that unlocked as it fast tracks the way tanks gain veterancy, the next point i invest on the mines for the following point which i also find important for armor doc which is that shermans gain veterancy faster. one thing which i think might be happening is that the m36 is able to tap into the last one and im sure it shouldnt since its not based on a sherman. another thing i noticed it also gains the extra sandbag protection that shermans get from the upgrades. so tecnhnically when you do all the upgrades it adds and extra layer or protection to the tank destroyer. i have to agree with tiger in some points where in the last match there was points were the panzer IV H was point blank and the shot bounced. im not sure if he used AP rounds but at that range the 75mm should had pen the m36. i know veterancy plays a big role in the whole thing and commanders do too. i also agree with tiger that the m36 is in many ways alot better than the pershing, even though its supposed to have weaker armor, with the sandbag upgrade it seems its even stronger armor than the pershing. and the abilities it has as a tank destroyer make it a ton times better than the pershing because to me it doesnt have a MG on the top and its not that good vs infantry or tanks since its slow. so in that sense i think the m36 shouldnt be a better tank than the pershing. on the part of bouncing rounds from the tiger so many times i would have to agree with tiger. it doesnt make sense that the m36 should be able to bounce so many rounds. due to veterancy maybe have the enemy tank miss is understandable but to have it bounce is a bit too much. towards the end of the match i was even surprised how it also bounced a round from a 75mm AT gun that was in ambush mode. in conclusion as it stands i believe the m36 it seems is a match between jumbo in armor wise and pershing in firepower. and the second best american tank behind the SP. which in my opinion is not fair to have just once when the germans get all heavy tanks as many times as they can. i also believe that the panther A or G variant should be brought back to tank hunter doc. as it once was and last but not least, the AVRE should be able to damage tanks as it did before since the bumbard does and reducing the range on the AVRE made it very useless in my opinion.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Great post Rommels, ur Sluggers in those games were completely unreal to be honest.. and yes; the Slugger somehow acts like a Jackson, it does have the same armor as the Jackson too, which is total bullshit. Seemingly somehow the game actually recognizes the Slugger as like if it was a Jackson with Sherman chassis (they even have the exact same price)!!! As it gets upgraded with sandbags, not to mention that all the bonuses given to the Shermans by the Armor doc are also applied to the Slugger.. such as the boost of gaining faster verterancy levels for example!

The Slugger this way is simply OP. It's not any expensive, does have good mobility as well as the possibility of ambushing! Yet, on top of all that... Also somehow a good armor for god's sake.. way better than the Pershing indeed!

in order to bring it short, what should be done is the following;
-Slugger price decreased. (85 fuel/600 MP instead of 700/110)
-Slugger armor should be MUCH weaker, when I say "MUCH" then I literally mean it.
-Should no longer take any benefits of the upgrades provided to Shermans.
-Should no longer be upgraded with sandbags.

Jacksons remain untouched on the other hand.
Now the Armor do player will have the option to choose between the more expensive version which is better armored (the B1 Jackson I mean) or the cheaper version (I mean the Slugger) which is lighter but has much better mobility and camo instead of stationary position...

[JimQwilleran]

You know, before this topic we had like half of year of "no one complaining about units being op".

I liked those times...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ya, that is the first "complaining topic" since some long time.. and I guess more are coming soon

But u know, I wasn't really into making any such topics anymore... However that after I saw the Slugger bouncing the 88 about 7 times; I actually lost my mind!

[Warhawks97]

So far the jacks has simply reached its performence for the cost.

Its armor is not better than Tiger or anything. Till 4.93 or 4.95 the jacks had no pen/damage boost at all from camo unlike all other TD´s.

And if i am correct it still misses the 5 range bonus which all Allied TD´s actually get from camo.
The reload time is worst of all. 7 seconds. A Jagdpanther reloads 4,5-5,5 seconds (from ambush even faster). Just to make that clear.

From ambush the reload time is multiplier with 0.75. Means even from ambush the reload time goes not below 5,25 seconds (do you realize something? Its barely less as the standard rof of a tiger and not less as those of tank IV´s and most axis TD´s).

The 17 pdr from achilles pen vs tiger is better as that of jackson 90 mm. In fact the 17 pdr has a better penetration against every axis tank as the 90 mm except when it comes to KT and the like.

I mean the jacks can even bounce off from a Tank IV H/J

The M10 achilles ambush pen/damage boost are also a way better as those of M36.

Jacks A camo shot vs Tiger without APCR Max range:
Pen: 69,6% chance
Damage min: 812,5
Damage max: 1000
Reload time: 5,25 seconds

with APCR:
Pen: 121,104%
Damage min: 552,5
Damage max: 680


M10 Achilles camo shot vs Tiger without APCR:
Pen: 1,18
Damage min: 675
Damage max: 975
Reload time: 3,15 seconds

with APDS:
pen: 185,26%
Damage min: 843,75
Damage max: 1218,75


Note also:
This is with camo bonuses. Without both guns efficency drops down by a significant ammount. (those of 17 more as that of jacks as the achilles has better camo boosts)
The 17 pdr is significantly better vs Jagdpanther and still much better against Panther (and also tank IV etc).

The 90 mm has an edge (from camo small egde) over 17 pdr against KT but its very hard to pen it though. VS Jagdtiger both peform pretty bad.




The Jacks has 700 HP vs 500 HP for achilles. Its also better armored.

Tiger I 88 mm L/56 vs Jacks:
pen: 0,684
Damage min: 550
Damage max: 700
reload time: 6 seconds.

AP rounds will boost pen and damage for tiger.

Panther canon has slightly better pen vs jacks. KT, Nashorn and the like wont have a problem to deal with jacks.

Panzerschreck vs Jacks:
pen: 80 % (from camo more)



I am not sure whether the Jacks is affected by sandbags or not.

I did only measure the Jacks with Tiger because Tiger measures all units with Tiger. As for the price tag the Panther is clearly better as the Jacks. Panther pens any allied tank (easily), bounces so far everything that is thrown at it, especially inf AT weapons and has also better basic speed.

So you maybe should get your stuff straight before complaining. And no, i wont write down any long "experience" text. Has those have proven ineffective in the past. So i just throw simple stats instead. But if you complain about Jacks price tag what shall be done with panther then? I could agree on the pretty early unlock of the jacks but thats it about. But considering that achilles comes also early with better efficency against Tank IV´s the only argument of delaying the Jacks is the realism argument.


@Rommel: The M36 Jacks had thick armor. Lower fron was up to 110 mm and slopped. The upper hull arround 65-76 mm iirc and also slopped. The turret front was also extremly thick. And also extra armor plates got added sometimes. So the tigers 88 mm couldnt rely that much on its overmathich as it did against many early allied tanks. For that reason that long barreld 88 was mounted on KT, Jagdpanther and even planned for the Panther II.

I couldnt find any real error regarding pens. 70% pen vs jacks at max range without everything is pretty fair i think.

AndTank IV bounced from Jacks at point blank (point blank as such doesnt really exist as the mid range pen modifier applies early (at 10-15 range already while tank min range is 5)? Ive seen 17 pdrs bouncing from Panther at very close range, even when the barrel touched the Panther already.

Same goes with churchill. Game engine sets simply some limits. Its literally impossible to make it the way that a tank IV for example pens a church at close range with 100% chance and just 20 at max range. All values affect (modify) each other. And trying to adjust it as realistic as possible against one certain unit would mess it up against all others......

@Tiger: Slugger=Jacks. So i dont get your second post.

[Leonida [525]]

The M36 Jacks had thick armor. Lower fron was up to 110 mm and slopped. The upper hull arround 65-76 mm iirc and also slopped. The turret front was also extremly thick. And also extra armor plates got added sometimes. So the tigers 88 mm couldnt rely that much on its overmathich as it did against many early allied tanks. For that reason that long barreld 88 was mounted on KT, Jagdpanther and even planned for the Panther II.

Well. for what i know (maybe i'm wrong) m36 Jackson has 50 mm lower hull, 38.1 mm upper hull and 76mm max in frontal turret.. 110 mm is only for a little part in the lower hull. Even if is sloped it's not that good armor for a kwk36, i think a Tiger has almost always to pen it, even if m36 is vet 4-5, like a vetted m10 or similar. Maybe m36 could have more health. Extra armor plates i think can't be an argument since also germans used tracks to reinforce tanks..

The Jacks has 700 HP vs 500 HP for achilles. Its also better armored.

Tiger I 88 mm L/56 vs Jacks:
pen: 0,684
Damage min: 550
Damage max: 700
reload time: 6 seconds.

So for me, given its armor and given the all the abilities that this tank has, i agree with Tiger96, that 0,6 should be highly increased (also the % for other tanks) maybe with a price reduction, because i cant see a jackson bouncing 88 and shrecks like that.. it's veeery unreal (I know unreal things happen in this game, but this is so much i think, i mean it's not a churchill )

[Wake]

@Warhawks, can you clarify the stat differences between the two versions of the Jackson? Both of them are named the Jackson and both of them are also called the Slugger. Apparently, in the war, most Americans just called it a "TD" for "Tank Destroyer" and didn't have a nickname for it.

But there are two different versions of the M36, which is the M36 on an M10 Wolverine Chasis, or the M36B1 on a Sherman Chasis. What should happen is that both tanks have the exact same gun stats, since they have the exact same gun in real life, but the B1 should cost more than the M36 since it's on a Sherman chasis, but the B1 also gets better armor and slower speed. The normal M36 should be faster but pretty easy to destroy since it has thin armor.

That's how it should be, according to real life. However, I'm not sure if the game actually does this. The guns might actually have completely different stats and there is some weird stuff like the M36 isn't noticeably faster than the M36B1. Maybe Warhawks or someone with stat info can clarify.

Also, look at this video that shows the rotation speed of the M36 vs an M4 Sherman (and also the Easy Eight Sherman which is hilariously fast).

https://youtu.be/LjPONUrsHzc

I will also mention that when M10 Wolverines were being converted to become M36s, more armor was added to the turret, I think. So the M36 is not as badly armored as the M10, but the M36B1 will always have more armor than the M36.

[Panzerblitz1]

A little Dev. note... before burning the kitchen, COH isn't an exact science AND sometimes, yes sometimes, the Engine who calculate datas do crazy things, like Sending a grenade 2 miles away, or can't kill the 1% left of a tank, its happening, plus you add the random lucky % and sometimes, you get yourself a big fugly pie.

Before SCrEaming, AAAAAh this unit is OP, you first need SEVERAL GAMES to test that same so called OP unit, its not because your tiger couldn't pen. the Jackson in your single game that its really the fact in game, like i said, sometimes COH do his own stuff and we absolutely don't have any clue why
Cheers!

[RommelsAfrikaKorps]

well tiger it seems its pure skill here then lol

[Krieger Blitzer]

A little Dev. note... before burning the kitchen, COH isn't an exact science AND sometimes, yes sometimes, the Engine who calculate datas do crazy things, like Sending a grenade 2 miles away, or can't kill the 1% left of a tank, its happening, plus you add the random lucky % and sometimes, you get yourself a big fugly pie.

Before SCrEaming, AAAAAh this unit is OP, you first need SEVERAL GAMES to test that same so called OP unit, its not because your tiger couldn't pen. the Jackson in your single game that its really the fact in game, like i said, sometimes COH do his own stuff and we absolutely don't have any clue why
Cheers!

Alright, I will do further testing... You can have a look at this on my stream.. through the Steam I think I can also upload an unlisted video about it on YouTube soon at some point.

I agree with Leonida and Wake though, that it's a little bit too much to see the Slugger bouncing off an 88. And also.. the Slugger indeed must be cheaper than the Jackson; as I am really quite unsure why they have the same armor in BK, as well as even the same price!


And just in order to clarify for anyone of those who are having a confusion with the names;
Slugger = M36 Jackson = M10 Wolverine chassis = much weaker armor = ambush ability = flank speed.
Jackson = M36B1 Jackson = upgraded Sherman chassis = much better armor = stationary position = no flank speed or ambush.

According to BK, they actually have the same price.. and somehow apparently also the same armor!!! Which obviously makes the Slugger much more durable this way. Even better than the Pershing!

[JimQwilleran]

I just want to clarify all the clarifications here:

And just in order to clarify for anyone of those who are having a confusion with the names;
Slugger = M36 Jackson = M10 Wolverine chassis = much weaker armor
Jackson = M36B1 Jackson = upgraded Sherman chassis = much better armor

Sorry this is wrong.

First:

Let's skip names "slugger" and "Jackson", those names mean nothing as both variants were called both names. Also practically all vehicles used in combat during the war were M36 version, not M36B1.

Spoiler: show

About 1,400 M36s were produced during the war. The need for 90 mm gunned tank destroyers was so urgent that, during October–December 1944, 187 conversions of standard Medium Tank M4A3 hulls were produced by Grand Blanc Arsenal. These vehicles, designated M36B1, were rushed to the European Theater of Operations and used in combat alongside standard M36s. The M36 was well liked by its crews, being one of the few armored fighting vehicles available to US forces that could destroy heavy German tanks from a distance. In an engagement with a German Panther tank at 1500 yards, an M36 of the 776th TD Battalion was able to penetrate the turret armor.
Source: https://www.onwar.com/weapons/tanks/firearms/fm36.html

You are wrong when you say that: wolverine's hull + 90 mm gun = M36.

M36 does not have wolverines hull. It's the same shape, but the armor is much thicker.

M10 Wolverine's hull was around 38 mm thick [-> slopped around 66 mm] (In the thinnest spot)
M36 is 114 mm in the thickest [-> slopped around 215mm]; and 60 mm thinnest [-> 105 mm]

Now let's look at tiger tank penetration values:

Spoiler: show

Penetration figures given for an armoured plate 30 degrees from vertical

Range Penetration
100 m 132 mm
500 m 110 mm
1000 m 99 mm
1500 m 91 mm
2000 m 83 mm

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36

Whooops. Seems like tiger DO BOUNCE from M36. Actually it should always bounce unless quite close range of around 500 meters. Please cease crying, search for source.

But other way round:

Spoiler: show

M3 90mm gun penetration values

Range Penetration
100m 188
500m 163
1000m 137
1500m 115
2000m 96

Now, tiger tank armour is: 100mm

Devs I want to make a statement here:

I don't want to see M36 ever bounce from tiger. Nevah evah

[Devilfish]

Guys, are you sure it is that OPOPOPOP?
Or it's just "I'm used to a comfy way of axis penning everything all the time, so this is unfair".

Funny how suddenly it's such big problem, cause it's unrealistic, mighty axis 88 should reck it, while there are so many unrealistic pens/armor values already in game since forever. Like ok jacks shouldn't bounce 88, but at the same time it has only 70% to pen tiger at max distance, while in reality 90mm would blow every axis tank into pieces, except KT or jagTiger, nobody cared about that. Or look at the pzIV, bouncing so much in the game, in reality.....

Real question is, is it really unbalanced? Or is it just a frustration because one didn't expect an US TD can actually bounce something and failed to adapt? But really if we start a "IRL blablabla", then we can completely revamp armor warfare in BK.

Let's not jump into conclusions from few rage games and maybe just learn and adapt.

Cheers boyz.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Hawks;
The following video shows that either the values u provided does have nothing to do with reality, or that there is something wrong up here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrK6FG8IdRY
Video is unlisted, only those with the link can see it...

@Nami;
Your problem is simply that u think the people u r arguing are completely ignorant or unaware of such matters. And that u have much more knowledge than they do! While you have to realize.. that u r not the only one playing War Thunder or WoT, u r also not the only one who did some research before. The data u provided is actually correct, but they have nothing to do with our discussion. As there is also no point of posting them even...

It's true that the Slugger was slightly more armored only at some certain spots than the M10 Wolverine. As I never said they had the exact same armor, did I? Although that it's still pretty exposed with such a weak armor at most of the majority area on the front as u can obviously see. I mean that the thick spot is actually just too tiny while the rest of the frontal armor is too weak to stand an 88 hit... As u can see over there on the 5 pictures below.

However that anyway, I only said that the Slugger is based on Wolverine chassis. Which is definitely true.. but this doesn't necessarily mean that I believe they had the exact same armor! So, I really wonder.. what made u believe that I thought otherwise??!! U quickly built ur own conclusions that I have got no idea about what I am talking about.. and then said to urself "Oh, such an ignorant! Let's surprise him with some facts!" But u have to know that I always knew about those facts for sure! Anyway.

Devs I want to make a statement here:

I don't want to see M36 ever bounce from tiger. Nevah evah

It's also true that the 90mm gun should never bounce off a Tiger, and it's also a fact that the Pershing should have much better armor (currently the armor of the Pershing isn't totally bad btw, but ya.. perhaps should be even stronger) but my point here considering the balance is that.. the Slugger is available as soon as a Pz IV. While in reality, the Slugger was available as soon as a KT... Same with the Pershing, according to realism again (which is the argument u r conducting over here) the Pershing would have to be delayed while becoming much later available and not as soon as a Tiger anyhow.. that's if u really want to buff the 90mm gun!

However, that in BK.. the Slugger as well as the Pershing... Are much earlier available than they are supposed to be according to reality; that's because of the existence of the SP which is a prototype tank but even earlier available than the KT. Which is also false according to reality!
So, it's absolutely fine to see the Tiger being able to bounce off 90mm gun shells.. since that the Tiger is available as soon as those 90mm gun tanks somehow, while those 90mm gun tanks should be much later available according to reality as I said. Also, the Tiger is way much more expensive than them at the end...

What I just typed could also work as a response to this;

Like ok jacks shouldn't bounce 88, but at the same time it has only 70% to pen tiger at max distance, while in reality 90mm would blow every axis tank into pieces, except KT or jagTiger, nobody cared about that. Or look at the pzIV, bouncing so much in the game, in reality.....

So ya, either remove the SP while strongly buffing 90mm guns and therefore delaying the Slugger and the Pershing as well as also buffing their armor.
Or, the current case.. that the SP remains being earlier available than the KT even! Together with also earlier available Pershing and Slugger, but with much weaker 90mm guns compared to reality as a result... Seems legit enough I think, or isn't it?
So, ya.. not a surprise at all to see the 90mm bouncing off a Tiger according to balance wise.

Now, back to the subject... The conclusion simply is.. accordingly to balance wise.. the Slugger armor has to be greatly nerfed; becoming slightly cheaper on the other hand. As it also shouldn't act like a Jackson with Sherman chassis... Should not gain veterancy levels faster after the unlock!

[kwok]

Is it really fair to ask for a balance change on the basis of two games? We have the true values from Corsix that generally show that the games presented as evidence are just bad luck. That's not to say that there isn't a balance problem, but why do we need to keep making every post about how to change the game instead of changing the play styles?
I agree with both pblitz and devilfish, why not have more games first before keeping on lobbying for a change. Otherwise it's nothing more than spamming.

[kwok]

And honestly, if you are to pit an expensive tank against an almost as expensive tank destroyer, isn't it fundamentally preferred if the tank destroyer wins? You pit a tank against inf, tank will prob win. Pit an inf vs tank destroyer, inf wins.
Just speaking on game style/strategy here... It kinda makes sense to me the tiger would lose to a slugger td.

[JimQwilleran]

I give up. If not I will end talking to pictures or walls thinking they understand me.

Clearly both models we present are different. In mine the biggest part of hull has 60mm, in yours 38mm. I quit discussion if we base on different facts. I am not insane enough to desire to prove you wrong anyway. When I was the closest to Donquixote it was when watching One Piece...

Is it really fair to ask for a balance change on the basis of two games? We have the true values from Corsix that generally show that the games presented as evidence are just bad luck. That's not to say that there isn't a balance problem, but why do we need to keep making every post about how to change the game instead of changing the play styles?
I agree with both pblitz and devilfish, why not have more games first before keeping on lobbying for a change. Otherwise it's nothing more than spamming.

Haven't we been here like 20 times already? Let's just not answer next such topic.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yes, better give up... The model u showed is a dead picture from god knows where.. while the one I showed is a life picture from a well known game.

Let's just not answer next such topic.

But mate, I didn't ask YOU to ever get obliged at answering or even not answering me anyway.
I am here speaking to the devs after all...

@Kwok;
What I am saying is that the values they provided are not representing the reality, that's why I uploaded such an unlisted video for proofing purposes.. as I believe the values Hawks has provided are either completely wrong or that there is simply a bug located somewhere that allows the Slugger to somehow bounce high caliber guns!

[JimQwilleran]

Yes, better give up... The model u showed is a dead picture from god knows where.. while the one I showed is a life picture from a well known game.

--Erased-- don't bring that up here! PZB1 - Of course that what I say is shit. My picture is shit just because I am shit, I know. I better give up. I will lay down on the ground waiting for death upon me. That's all I am good for. Thx for making me realise that.

[Krieger Blitzer]

........
..........
............ ? O.O

[kwok]

I'll double check the values then. It'll take me a moment.

[kwok]

Wow, this is going to be interesting. Here's something fun that maybe I'm doing wrong, warhawks help me out in understanding here:

I can't find the m36 target table under the 88mm weapon. So penetrations go to default with is HIGHER than what warhawks said. Basically, it would be 76% penetration at far range with no other modifiers. So is there a bug with M36? Yes I think so... but not in favor of the point you make Tiger.... I don't know though maybe I'm wrong and mislooked the armor value.

Also, I don't see any indicator that sandbag upgrades are applied to the tank.

[Krieger Blitzer]

And honestly, if you are to pit an expensive tank against an almost as expensive tank destroyer, isn't it fundamentally preferred if the tank destroyer wins? You pit a tank against inf, tank will prob win. Pit an inf vs tank destroyer, inf wins.
Just speaking on game style/strategy here... It kinda makes sense to me the tiger would lose to a slugger td.

Almost as expensive??? The Slugger is almost as expensive as a Tiger, really??!! o.O
Well, I agree that the tank destroyer should win though.. but from ambush; not a fking face to face combat!

And it DOES apply sandbags.
But plz, I ask u kindly.. try not to double post again... Why do u double post too often?

I guess there is nothing more clear than what I have composed above.. clearly enough or even clearer than the sun, the Slugger is obviously over performing indeed! in order to observe such a thing, u only need eyes I think. Not shitty values or anything else of whatever.
Now we gotta have to figure out the source of the problem. Then to fix it afterwards...

[kwok]

It doesn't apply sandbags practically, maybe just visually applied sandbags as script, but upgrade doesnt show up for the entity which is how values/attributes change.

[kwok]

***You always can Edit your previous post to prevent double posting. PZB1

As for the double posting, report me. I prefer breaking up my posts by subject like splitting chapters of a book. The purpose of the double posting rule is to limit spamming and limiting a person from dominating the forum with large texts. Neither I feel like I'm doing but instead expressing passage of time and rhetoric.