OP M36

[Panzerblitz1]

If the M36 is OP as it has been said it will be fixed, we are checking that.

[Krieger Blitzer]

If the M36 is OP as it has been said it will be fixed, we are checking that, it seems that the sand bag addition (armor bonus) is jamming the M36 armor...

Thx!
Glad to know that it will be checked, and yes.. it might be the sandbags that cause the trouble... Or maybe something else; which makes the M36 armor somehow acts so crazy like this.

Edit:-
Oops, ya.. sorry for calling it the "Slugger" again From now on... I better stick at "M36" and "M36 B1" which apparently are more commonly recognized names of the 2 different tanks.

[sgtToni95]

There's actually a point at the beginning of your replay named "OP Slugger" where your Tiger almost alone kills 2 Sluggers.. why don't you talk about that? Maybe that was just luck but that could have been many times for Rommel as well. And many times Rommel has to retreat his Jackson to repair it so i think he's even been a wise user of his units.
About your wt pictures i've noticed that, for many tanks with added armor plates, when you point on frontal armor it just shows you the added plate thickness, then you have to add the base hull armor (in this case wolverine's) so then you probably get a similar thickness to the one Nami shows you. The same happens with the Sherman jumbo: if you look at jumbo's armor it says it has 38 mm of armor with 50mm of effective on the upper plate.. which you can understand is not the case..

[Krieger Blitzer]

I didn't talk about that because I am not up to speak about which tank has killed the other or whatever.. of course the Tiger can kill the M36, and I succeeded doing this maybe because of my wise with using the units as well. Or probably that I was more lucky!

However, that here... We are pointing on a very specific matter; just like how ur clan friend Leonida mentioned on the first page. As we are here speaking about the M36's armor.. regardless of anything else, since that it was able to bounce off 88 shells. Which isn't acceptable; don't forget also that the M36 is available in BK as soon as a Pz IV, while in reality.. it was only available as soon as a KT in late 1944. The Tiger on the other hand came on 1942, u know that.
It's absolutely unfair to have such a tank destroyer that combines mobility, firepower as well as ambushing tactics together with good armor all in one.. this way, there is a little sense of deploying the Pershing!

And yes, I know what u mean in WT. But the M36 doesn't have any plates added...
You can also test it ur self, if u play WT.. then just get into a Tiger and try to hit an M36 maybe from a distance of 700m, let me know if it will ever bounce! You can do such a test with any of ur mates. You can try it out in WoT too!

[sgtToni95]

I have more than 1k battles on Jackson on wot and actually it's so rare not to be penetrated by a tiger.. but there you can angle and mechanics are different.. on the other hand if i'm in a jackson and i see a tiger i look at it as a tasty snack more than as a threat... it's nearly impossible to bounce it even when not using apcr.. but here it happens so i think it's a bombination of you being unlucky and Rommel good playing.
About my mate Leonida: 1) 525 is not a clan.. we're ex schoolmates and that's just how we distinguish ourselves on videogames. 2) We've been playing a lot of games between us, and i always played as allies and Leonida and Paso always as axis, so every post me and them will write on this forum would not be objective at all

[Krieger Blitzer]

on the other hand if i'm in a jackson and i see a tiger i look at it as a tasty snack more than as a threat... it's nearly impossible to bounce it even when not using apcr..

Yes, I know that the 90mm gun shouldn't bounce off a Tiger at all the other way around based on realistic bases.. but that's why I kept mentioning earlier that the M36 in BK is available as soon as a Pz IV while it should be available as soon as a KT according to reality And also, in BK the SP exists while it was a prototype tank... So, according to realism again, the 90mm gun surely shouldn't bounce off.. that's correct. But according to balance-wise of the game... It's absolutely fine to see the 90mm gun bouncing off the Tiger! The Tiger is also way more expensive. Yet, Pershing can also bounce off the 88! And it's available as soon as a Tiger while it should be available as soon as a KT as well or even only after the KT based on reality. But this game is about balancing...

When I complain about the M36, then it's because of the balance in the first place.. and then the realism also follows later... But in the 2nd place.

2) We've been playing a lot of games between us, and i always played as allies and Leonida and Paso always as axis, so every post me and them will write on this forum would not be objective at all

Haha, I already know that.. no worries

[Warhawks97]

Why is it not "acceptable" that a tiger can bounce off from something?

Also the Jacks cost almost as much as a Panther. When it goes 1 vs 1 the Panther has the egde. The Jacks has, even with APCR (The APCR or HVAP, its the same) the jacks pens Panther G with just 59% chance. Thats also bullshit isnt it? The APCR of the 90 mm was one of the most powerfull AP shells. Without the Jacks pens with just 33%.


And Nami did not use a "fail picture". Go through the wwII archives, the Jacks simply had thick armor. If we divide the frontal section of the jacks into three parts then we can say that the tiger would bounce off when hitting two of these three: Turret (bounce), Upper hull (mostly pen i think, though not always when we consider the so called max range as 1400-1500 meters), lower hull bounce. So 70% pen for tiger vs jacks seems not bad. And as mentioned, the slightly more expensive Panther bounces by far more, shreds inf, drives bit faster and can use smoke screen cover.

And 100% pen doesnt exist actually. There can always be some bad placed shots which makes even a "guranteed pen shot" to be eventually a bounce shot. There are incidents in which even Panthers bounced off from shermans. I think we can be glad that we didnt add such bad luck factors in BK. In that case every gun would have an at least 5-10% chance to bounce off from a target (Tank).

And if you would have read my first post you would have seen that the achilles shooting from ambush and with AP is the better choice over jacks.
So for me it seems that your only real problem is that the Tiger could bounce off from a target that is not the churchill ace or jumbo.


But to your point: "make 90 mm weaker than in reality as long as SP is in game". The 90 mm is already a way weaker as it was in reality.

And stop the WT crap. There are so many lies. And lots of things are horrible unrealistic just because of "balance". Many units have wrong stats just to fit in a "Faction Picture" or tier it is supposed to be used. Ive seen airplanes with wrong climb rates, wrong engine stats etc etc. So pls, stop that WT. As for WoT i could at least claim that the WoT dev crew went through many many historical papers and made lots of researches (and even payed them).

So when it comes to realism in games i would prefer WoT and the IL2-series. Those even talked with veterans (pilots etc). And they also introduced tanks in their latest series (Battle of moscow and battle of stalingrad).

[Krieger Blitzer]

Why is it not "acceptable" that a tiger can bounce off from something?

Did anyone complain that it bounces off the SP, the Croc or the Jumbo for example? No. The Tiger indeed can bounce off something.. but not the M36.

Also the Jacks cost almost as much as a Panther. When it goes 1 vs 1 the Panther has the egde. The Jacks has, even with APCR (The APCR or HVAP, its the same) the jacks pens Panther G with just 59% chance. Thats also bullshit isnt it? The APCR of the 90 mm was one of the most powerfull AP shells. Without the Jacks pens with just 33%.

No, not bullshit... Because;

The 90 mm is already a way weaker as it was in reality.

Yup, which is totally fine.. as long as SP exits and specifically since that the M36 as a result is also available as soon as an IV... Then that's what I am actually saying; but I don't demand the 90mm guns to become even weaker though.

And Nami did not use a "fail picture". Go through the wwII archives, the Jacks simply had thick armor. If we divide the frontal section of the jacks into three parts then we can say that the tiger would bounce off when hitting two of these three: Turret (bounce), Upper hull (mostly pen i think, though not always when we consider the so called max range as 1400-1500 meters), lower hull bounce. So 70% pen for tiger vs jacks seems not bad. And as mentioned, the slightly more expensive Panther bounces by far more, shreds inf, drives bit faster and can use smoke screen cover.

I don't know about Nami's picture or from where she exactly got it, over there I provided pictures from War Thunder, and obviously.. it's impossible that the 88 could bounce off anywhere. Not even the turret.. the Tiger can penetrate it almost at any range, the only thick spot is in picture number 2... Which is a very tiny one.

Panther can shred inf etc, but can't drive faster than the M36 which has flank speed.. also can't ambush or use stationary position in order to provide more range unlike the M36 B1, so what? It's wrong to compare it this way I think.

And if you would have read my first post you would have seen that the achilles shooting from ambush and with AP is the better choice over jacks.

I don't really trust the blind Crosix values anymore.. because in the game... There are lot more factors to be considered. The reality is not in Crosix!

[JimQwilleran]

I guess there is nothing more clear than what I have composed above.. clearly enough or even clearer than the sun, the Slugger is obviously over performing indeed! in order to observe such a thing, u only need eyes I think. Not shitty values or anything else of whatever.
Now we gotta have to figure out the source of the problem. Then to fix it afterwards...

You fools! Why do you fail to understand that logic! Stop arguing you ignorants! Who needs values, who cares about facts!? Tiger had one game and this is enough!

[Panzerblitz1]

JimQ, you calm down please, i just tested the M36 and yes there is a slight problem with this unit, it will be fixed in the next patch.

[JimQwilleran]

Can you specify what was wrong and what is going to be changed?

[Krieger Blitzer]

If Panzerblitz1 doesn't mind me answering ur question shortly over here accordingly to what I know.. then I would just like to say that apparently not much is going to change... So, don't worry.

However that we have actually made a test together, and the result was clearly that the M36's armor has in fact proved to be somewhat acting a little bit weirdly for some reason... Usually having a more durable armor than the B1 or even the Pershing, while some other times not! SO, I think either the armor will be tweaked or that simply the HP of the M36 will be slightly reduced! But more likely the 2nd option I guess.

[Warhawks97]

The Jacks armor isnt wrong actually.

What might (or is) be wrong:

1. Weak 90 mm when it comes to efficency against Tigers and Panthers
2. Pershing armor
3. Early Jackson unlock
4. Maybe the HP of jacks. But HP of tanks is based on their weight so it doesnt seem off that jacks has these 700 HP.
5. SP as unit in game


But for gods sake.... if you change armor then you should take care that it doesnt become a costly fragile unit that requires monster skills in usage. Coh 2 vanilla already failed badly with that.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The Jacks armor isnt wrong actually.

If it's ever more durable than the Pershing or the M36B1, then I think it's definitely wrong.

What might (or is) be wrong:

1. Weak 90 mm when it comes to efficency against Tigers and Panthers
2. Pershing armor
3. Early Jackson unlock
4. Maybe the HP of jacks. But HP of tanks is based on their weight so it doesnt seem off that jacks has these 700 HP.
5. SP as unit in game

This is absolutely true, but u know.. 1,2 and 3 are normal... Since number 5 won't change!

So; what to do? Should we make a SP rant finally? Do u think Wolf will agree to remove the SP while buffing the Pershing's armor and 90mm guns as well as also delaying them as a result together with Jacksons??!! You think.. anyone is really up to rework armor doc at all? I honestly doubt ^^

Personally though.. I am all for it!
If there is a poll for this, I would vote for SP removal...

[Panzerblitz1]

[quote="Warhawks97"]The Jacks armor isnt wrong actually. NOT AGREE

What might (or is) be wrong:

1. Weak 90 mm when it comes to efficency against Tigers and Panthers AGREED
2. Pershing armor AGREED
3. Early Jackson unlock AGREED
4. Maybe the HP of jacks. But HP of tanks is based on their weight so it doesnt seem off that jacks has these 700 HP. NOT AGREE
5. SP as unit in game. AGREED

We need to discuss it in intern.

[kwok]

M36 also just doesn't have its own target table per weapon. That's a pretty big factor.

For example, there are no multipliers to damage so it will only apply the base damage of the weapon. So even though it's 700 hp, effective HP could be different relative to others. Though, I still don't see why we should chase this just from 2 games. It could just be really bad luck which happens. Two games I really don't think is sufficient to make a claim that there is a bug. Maybe it brought attention that M36 has no target table, but that might not be a balance issue either.

[Warhawks97]

M36 has. For you it maybe just appears as a number weird number. Ask markr for the missing files and where to put them. I forgot them.

@Blitz:
So what exactly is bugged with jacks?

And isnt Tank HP based on their weight? Coz it really seems that the game is being made that way. But who knows.

[kwok]

M36 has its own armor but check the weapons target tables. It's not in any of the weapons that I looked through.

All criticals including death (is technically a type of critical) is based on a weight/bracket whatever you want to call it. (This is true of infantry too btw). If you do damage, the ending hp value post damage changes the criticals set at each bracket. I think we both understand that, I'm just trying to standardize the language.

[Krieger Blitzer]

We need to discuss it in intern.

Indeed.
But now, since I can see u actually agree that SP shouldn't be there and that 90mm guns should be buffed while delaying both the Pershing and the Jackson together with applying better armor for Pershing, then what if I create a topic for SP removal? I am pretty sure 99% of the community will support me on this btw... I can propose a list of changes that shows how the new Armor doc should look like in return. When the majority agree on some certain suggestions.. would it be any possible to achieve SP removal finally??!!
Maybe a beta testing version of the new reworked Armor doc would be sufficient at this point.

Or, is removing the SP completely out of question? Can we give it a one last try??

Though, I still don't see why we should chase this just from 2 games. It could just be really bad luck which happens. Two games I really don't think is sufficient to make a claim that there is a bug. Maybe it brought attention that M36 has no target table, but that might not be a balance issue either.

It's not just 2 games, I said me and Panzerblitz1 have actually made a test together this morning regarding this matter. And the M36 armor proved to be over performing in most cases...

[Styv]

HI u Guys

As you maybe have allready seen, I was also in that match.
I also watched the Replay several times and in my opinion, Tiger1996 just had a huge amount of bad luck with his tiger.
But the bounces of the Panzerschrecks were very strange...

I guess YOU, Tiger1996, totally underrated the M36B1 and depended on the 88mm without ever using special rounds (as I ve seen)

[Panzerblitz1]

As i said we are checking that in intern, regarding the Super Pershing i really don't care, it is not a priority or breaking the balance, the problem right now is the M36 (Armor + Gun), more news soon.


M36 (standard): 3″ GMC M10A1 hull (M4A3 chassis, 1,298 produced/converted)
M36B1: Conversion on M4A3 hull and chassis. (187).
M36B2: Conversion on M4A2 chassis (same hull as M10) with a twin 6-71 arrangement GM 6046 diesel (287).

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright, but plz keep in mind that the 90mm guns can't be buffed any further as long as SP exists or as long as this tank is represented in the game... Or it would be a total balance breaking then! Since that the US tanks with 90mm guns are available early and also much cheaper than their counterparts; While even in reality they weren't available until the end of the war.

[JimQwilleran]

In reality V1 was never dropped on US flag put near triage center in the middle of a field. Does anybody cry to remove it? Why do you have to have a problem with everything Tiger? More than half of your 2000 posts is crying about units being op...

[Krieger Blitzer]

When there is something not right, I simply report that it is on the forum.. I think u have done the same a couple of times too. The M36's armor is not right; and it's not like I am the only one who believes the M36 armor is a bit over performing. Some players on the first page agreed on this as well. And so I did make a report on it! Plz don't go off-topic or try to manipulate things about me or my posts... You have absolutely nothing to do with this matter. Let's better stick to the subject! Did I ever speak about ur posts on the other hand btw? No, I didn't.
And yes, we all know the game does have a lot of unrealistic things.. SP is indeed one of them. But I didn't complain about the M36's armor for realism on the first place... As it was mainly for balancing reasons. Realism just came later only in the 2nd place! The M36 can't have the exact same armor as the M36 B1 or the Pershing.

[Wake]

While we're here on this discussion, I want to ask if the 90mm gun is supposed to be better or worse than the 17 pounder. Because it seems that the 17 pounder is much cheaper but is a lot better at destroying axis tanks. This is just a comparison I want to make because the M36 and M36B1 are almost perfect counterparts to the Achilles and the Firefly. Both are modified M10 Wolverines or modified Shermans.