axis units vs allies units

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JimQwilleran
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by JimQwilleran »

kwok wrote: Can't fight in 1944 like you would in 1700s.

In 1700's CoH I would spam dragoons lel. xD
And use... flank speed!
Da dum tss.

kwok
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by kwok »

If it were 1700s Coh I would challenge you to a duel, 1v1 me rapier you noob.

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MarKr
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by MarKr »

nashorn251 wrote:
MarKr wrote:Creating a new version of KCH was not intended. If they are really such a problem with the defensive upgrade we can tune them down somehow...to begin with, the defensive upgrade could apply only when they don't move...because, you know...using defensive bonuses while in offense is kinda off :D

- Reg5 soldiers now have a different "armor type" which makes them harder to hit while moving
- Reg5 receive after Vet unlock in CT defensive bonuses

they've been buffed in the last patch...do you really want to nerf them again? Before the last update they were almost useless compared to other elite infantry such as gebirgs and waffen. I think that they are fine now...don't forget that the RAF's offensive and defensive upgrades are applied on both SAS and commandos. Fallschirms are offensive infantry so I think that they need a def upgrade while they are moving

I'm not saying they should suck again but when all the bonuses combine on Fallshirms then while:
- moving in yellow cover:
Any unit shooting at them has accuracy multiplied by x0.3 = in other words -70% accuracy nerf
Any damage Fallies take is multiplied by x0.85 = in other words 15% taken damage reduction
Any supression values are multiplied by x0.125 = in other words supression speed reduced by 86.5%

- moving in green cover:
Any unit shooting at them has accuracy multiplied by x0.15 = in other words -85% accuracy nerf
Any damage Fallies take is multiplied by x0.425 = in other words 57.5% taken damage reduction
Any supression values are multiplied by x0.025 = in other words supression speed reduced by 97.5%
(I hope I made no mistakes in calculations)
given the fact that later in the game there are usually artyllery craters (yellow cover) almost everywhere, they can move pretty much anywhere without any significant threat to them - they are very hard to supress so they can easily move close to opponent's units while they move they are pretty hard to hit at any distance and when some bullet finally hits them, the damage taken is reduced.

I suspected that this could be a problem but I heard "no, it will be fine" so we gave it a try. I'd say the bonuses are quite huge (+ count in bonuses from Vet levels which are not covered in the calculations - these make the units even harder to hit and supress under any circumstances, not only while moving) and if they applied only while standing, I think it would be no big disaster...or at least reduce the defensive bonuses. That is just my opinion, if most of you think they are OK, then fine but for me, they are a bit over the top.
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Yafa
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Yafa »

Jagdpanther and nashorn251 also mentioned the raf upgrades ! so what about both the commando defensive and offensive bonuses ? specifically when applied to sas?
i bet the suppression will be reduced by like 100% or something.
let us know.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

You guys must be kidding, SAS is the worst elite infantry in game lmao. They are literally useless, their weapon loadout makes no sense, moreover they have zook accuracy bug or something, thats ridicolous how they hit dirt all the time or shooting not at the tank direction xD. Also they need 6cp what means that you hardly can gain superior vets since luft and storms available after 2-3 cp.

Im the most experinced RAF player next to Shadow and imo SAS sucks, commando are cheaper and do their job way better.

P.S. Somehow raf is really unpopular at the moment, dont even remember when I have seen it last time:( Maybe because Thunderbolt is working now and AB inf is overall better than commando due to para reinforcement and fire nades + 101s are universal fighters on all distances when equipted with triple mg's. Currently there are not many RAF advantages in compare to AB: gammon bombs which instantly immobolize tanks, camo, booby traps and 17 pounders of all kinds, thats all I think.

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MarKr
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by MarKr »

Jagdpanther and nashorn251 also mentioned the raf upgrades ! so what about both the commando defensive and offensive bonuses ? specifically when applied to sas?
i bet the suppression will be reduced by like 100% or something.
let us know.

The Offensive Bonus provides to Commandos and SAS cca 8 experience points (so they get Vet level or need to earn less XP for next level) and reduces the speed they get supressed by 25% (multiplier x0.75)

The Defensive bonus also provides 8XP and on top of that it reduces incoming damage for SAS and Commandos by 25% (multiplier x0.75).

Btw - in the previous calculation I forgot to apply the damage reduction the Fallies get from the "Veterancy Unlock" which further reduces taken damage by 25% (multiplier x0.75) so the damage reduction for them is even higher.
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Warhawks97
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Warhawks97 »

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:You guys must be kidding, SAS is the worst elite infantry in game lmao. They are literally useless, their weapon loadout makes no sense, moreover they have zook accuracy bug or something, thats ridicolous how they hit dirt all the time or shooting not at the tank direction xD. Also they need 6cp what means that you hardly can gain superior vets since luft and storms available after 2-3 cp.

Im the most experinced RAF player next to Shadow and imo SAS sucks, commando are cheaper and do their job way better.

P.S. Somehow raf is really unpopular at the moment, dont even remember when I have seen it last time:( Maybe because Thunderbolt is working now and AB inf is overall better than commando due to para reinforcement and fire nades + 101s are universal fighters on all distances when equipted with triple mg's. Currently there are not many RAF advantages in compare to AB: gammon bombs which instantly immobolize tanks, camo, booby traps and 17 pounders of all kinds, thats all I think.


Idk, maybe there are more new players arround? I mean who played RAF back in the days? You, shadow, design, sometimes loki.


RAF is not so easy due to specialized units (like not every inf squad gets schreck/zook + close/long range weapon). Most players prefer "easy style". Thats why Terror is popular for example. I cant say how RAF inf performs compared to Fallis/AB rangers though.

milekh
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by milekh »

ofcource cqb is for close but even against granadiesr with double stg at close range they have no chance.
i marked the point that flashminjagers can do something that other specialised units cant,
CQB unit was taken as a example cause flaschs kill them at even at close range (guys with fg42 rate of fire kill guys with shotguns and thompsons). it meant to compare cqb and flaschs - for one spront through fields is suicide, for second its "normal tactic", and even "cqb" at cqb cant fight off flaschminjagers.

i mean that flaschs are better at cqb than cqb specialised team, better at long range than cal.030 MG team, can sprint through fields under fire and even dont feel it.

Yafa
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Yafa »

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:SAS is the worst elite infantry in game lmao. They are literally useless, their weapon loadout makes no sense,

but from what i can see "experienced players" like you always said fallshirms are not too hard to counter with snipers and rifle grenades the other way around. people complain there should be no super humans but sas are also super humans after the upgrades i saw them walk infront of hmg42 taking no damage at all they stayed in front of it for too long. and at last they killed the hmg team! they have 7 thompson. and you get lots of weapons in their drops: 2 upgraded bazooka and 2 bren lmg. you can make a aquad with 4 brens and another with 4 zookas ! their zooka accuracy might be low but i think when it hits it hurts so much. i watched many games for elite players like you and i think they are very useful late game after the upgrades !

@mark
and that's all they get?? sure ??? they get no more bonuses also from special training and camo unlocks?

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Jagdpanther
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Jagdpanther »

kwok wrote:Cqc literally stands for close quarters combat, in case you didn't know. So not being able to attack over fields would directly be against their intention.

82nd are equipped similarly to cqc with other roles. They are a bit tougher, but that doesn't make them long range field chargers. If anything, no infantry is intended to be field chargers cuz that would reward poor strategic thought (cough vcoh cough). Can't fight in 1944 like you would in 1700s.


i approve this message

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MarKr
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by MarKr »

@mark
and that's all they get?? sure ??? they get no more bonuses also from special training and camo unlocks?
Nope, no bonuses from that.
Just to be sure we're clear here - the numbers for Falshirmjägers I provided were:
armor bonus (accuracy nerf while moving) + defensive bonus from unlock + bonuses provided by either yellow cover or green cover.

Numbers provided for RAF are bonuses provided by the unlocks but no cover bonuses are included there so if commandos are in cover the bonuses stack too of course but Fallies have that extra def bonus that stacks to it which is:
- harder to hit by 20% (x0.8 rec. accuracy)
- incoming damage reduced by 15% (x0.85 rec. damage)
- harder to supress by 75% (rec. supression x0.25)
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kwok
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by kwok »

A factor to consider is attacking side weapon accuracy makes a difference in surviving too.

Edit: and rof, dmg, etc. basically all factors on weapon.

milekh
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by milekh »

stuh vs sherman 105mm.
stuh:
shoots constantly at any enemy unit, even nice against tanks, free of charge use.
you can built 2-3?
sherman 105:
shots only as a barrage with ammo cost. only one availble.

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Panzerblitz1 »

We will not destroy the current balance because some units "got more" than others, before pointing one unit, you need to see the GENERAL picture and undertstand why?, what the doctrine offer compare to others, its silly to think unit per unit, you need to think Doctrines & Factions, not single units.
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Dude, why the heck are u comparing the 105 Sherman with the Stuh?
You could probably compare the Stuh with the Scott or something.. at least this would make little more sense I guess!

PzBlitz; nice new scary pic btw *_*

I am hopefully coming back really soon :P I am so excited myself to be honest... Finally going to play BK freely again :D

milekh
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by milekh »

becouse m4 105 have the same role as stuh.
m8 scott is just light hotwitzer and light tank, stuh have better armor, better range, batter gun, can do barrage.
there was holo charge rounds for m4 105, but it even cant shot directly. cost of stuh and m4 105 is about the same, but stuh is better in fight, is cheaper in use, and it can be used as normal tank when m4 105 cant cause it dont shot. m4 105 is worse than wespe but costs more, and its worse than cheaper stuh, even GRILLE IS CHEAPER THAN M4 105!!!!!

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MarKr
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by MarKr »

Aaaand here we go again, comparing prices of individual units... You need to realize that US have all those upgrades that let you generate MP faster than Axis therefore if something costs more or less the same for Axis and US, then US can usually save up resources for it faster.
Anyway, Sherman 105 is available to infantry doctrine, they have the most available arty pieces out of all US doctrines and also VT ability. If Sherman 105 worked as StuH, why would you need VT? Simply drive it to emplacements (StuH has more range than most emplacements, so I guess you would like 105 to have too) and safely destroy it for free from distance without any risks for your infantry - they will protect it from incoming attacks along with their Jumbo. No need to spend ammo on VT or any arty, so it will be even easier for you to equip infantry squads with weapon upgrades...can you see the problem?
Also interesting that when people bring this specific topic up they say that Sherman 105 and StuH had same roles in RL but everyone always wants 105 to work as StuH and not the other way around :D :D :D
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XAHTEP39
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by XAHTEP39 »

MarKr wrote:...
Also interesting that when people bring this specific topic up they say that Sherman 105 and StuH had same roles in RL but everyone always wants 105 to work as StuH and not the other way around :D :D :D

I want 80-mm front armor (penetration chance of enemy shells) of Stuh.42 (like as StuG.III/SthuG.IV) :) Why it is so thin now (50-mm in description)? And in battle I feel, that Stuh.42 is equal Pz.IV ausf.E, not StuG.III .

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Frost
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Frost »

kwok wrote:Cqc literally stands for close quarters combat, in case you didn't know. So not being able to attack over fields would directly be against their intention.

82nd are equipped similarly to cqc with other roles. They are a bit tougher, but that doesn't make them long range field chargers. If anything, no infantry is intended to be field chargers cuz that would reward poor strategic thought (cough vcoh cough). Can't fight in 1944 like you would in 1700s.



haha say that to waffen ss with 2 mg42 xD dude someone bought those CQS they didn't survive more than 1 sec died


it was so fast

also for Fj5 they are fun ahm i mean fine now imo

they were powerfull in ww2 anyway

also for CQS they do really need a nerf i mean what the point of them getting out of building and just dying like that its just so funny when thinking about it
Last edited by Frost on 06 Oct 2016, 14:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

Frost wrote:
kwok wrote:Cqc literally stands for close quarters combat, in case you didn't know. So not being able to attack over fields would directly be against their intention.

82nd are equipped similarly to cqc with other roles. They are a bit tougher, but that doesn't make them long range field chargers. If anything, no infantry is intended to be field chargers cuz that would reward poor strategic thought (cough vcoh cough). Can't fight in 1944 like you would in 1700s.



haha say that to waffen ss with 2 mg42 xD dude someone bought those CQS they didn't survive more than 1 sec died


it was so fast

SS with double mg are probably damage champions among all inf in mod.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Extremely expensive though...
400 MP for the officer team + 550 MP for the SS squad + 200 ammo in order to upgrade 2 LMG42s!

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Frost
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Frost »

Tiger1996 wrote:Extremely expensive though...
400 MP for the officer team + 550 MP for the SS squad + 200 ammo in order to upgrade 2 LMG42s!


And Only if USA had such unit )
and anyway usa player wouldnt care much about price and for PE player everything they have is exp asf so its not big duel
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

USA has a similar unit... It's the AB HQ squad, which is also an officer squad.

But actually, in my opinion.. 4 101st squads are the best infantry you can have in the whole game atm.

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Frost
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Frost »

and that because flame grande is so funny xD
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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: axis units vs allies units

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

101s are cool after tech tree vet. upgrade and with HQ team bonuce, without boosts any axis inf unit will kill them (besides the weakest volks). Luft paratroopers shred airborne like there is no tomorrow though, you d better avoid any encounters with them by your inf and fight with quad cals, snipers and HE shermans, trying to fight them off with inf will only give free vets and make them immortal.

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