Artillery Warfare

[yorghen]

Hi guys,
it's past a lot from my last time on this Forum.
My profile is no more, but I think was logic after many months...

I'm here just to ask the community to think about a suggestion that I elaborated in the last weeks.

After some sessions online and LAN I reach the conclusion that now artillery is very powerfull in some maps. Especially little ones with High ammo income.
So I thought a way to change this, without underpower the arty.

1) all arty pieces (mortar included) to start a barrage, they need free view (I can click only if there isn't FoW). In this way people are going to use more recon and not only Point&Click;
2) all the offmap arty ability need to become like the officer arty barrage of the commonwealth. Too easy to pay some ammo and bombard an area, you need to reach there with an officer or a recon to use it, even this to push the people using more the units and less Point&Click;
3) I think it will be more interesting to change a little bit even the core of the arty: reducing the cost, but reducing also precision and the Area of Effect. This will oblige the players to use arty in mass for one position. It will be even interesting (but I don't know if possible) to add a pin effect to arty, like MG, to infantry.

This is just my opinion but I think that will help to increasy the feeling of reality and even to increase coordination between players.

[JimQwilleran]

1) all arty pieces (mortar included) to start a barrage, they need free view (I can click only if there isn't FoW). In this way people are going to use more recon and not only Point&Click;

So you want to remove indirect fire from the game? Arty is the only thing that can shoot into fow. Your idea would only make players build a spotter to fire barrage. Btw, artillery was never meant to fire precisely (until post-war modern times). It was always "aim at the enemy and fire, hope it will hit". Also the psychological effect mattered. You fire at the enemy to pin him, stop his actions or prevent moving. Of course that spotters were needed and used, but most of the time arty was a weapon that was used to "prepare" the assault on the enemy positions... and most of the time enemy positions were clearly known.

2) all the offmap arty ability need to become like the officer arty barrage of the commonwealth. Too easy to pay some ammo and bombard an area, you need to reach there with an officer or a recon to use it, even this to push the people using more the units and less Point&Click;

This point and the second one would change the game into huge spotters battle. It would be impossible to kill enemy's arty because it would be far away from range of sight. The only bombarded area would be in the middle of the map, causing everybody to run into a wall of explosions and holes in the ground observed by spotters of both sides.
So practically you want to reduce arty usefulness to creating no-mans land in the middle of the map. Dude, this is not WW1 mod .

3) I think it will be more interesting to change a little bit even the core of the arty: reducing the cost, but reducing also precision and the Area of Effect. This will oblige the players to use arty in mass for one position. It will be even interesting (but I don't know if possible) to add a pin effect to arty, like MG, to infantry.

Also increasing micro and causing the whole map to change into one, big smoky hole. I don't know if you know but craters work like bushes, they give you yellow cover, but also cause units to miss more. You can sometimes see tanks missing 5 shots in a row, that's because of a hole in the ground between the tank and it's target xD.
Furthermore with that idea introduced arty would become useless against vehicles. Low accuracy and AoE would mean that any vehicle could run far away before any of shells would successfully hit the target. Btw most of the arty already has pin effect. Mortars, mid-air exploding shells of SE mortar and other howizers, flame shells of priests etc. Even standard explosions can cause units to get pinned sometimes.

After some sessions online and LAN I reach the conclusion that now artillery is very powerfull in some maps. Especially little ones with High ammo income.

What if we play on a big map with low ammo income? Getting an officer or a spotter there to call in arty would be terrible. And inf doc and def have almost all arty pieces static.

Summing up. Your ideas would mean serious changes in many aspects of the mod. It would be very hard work to introduce them (I guess, I am not a dev ), not to mention a pile of balancing issues like huge nerf of arty and SE docs.

[kwok]

It's how it works in most "realism" coh2 mods.

[JimQwilleran]

Yea, maybe in a new mod, balanced and well thought-out this idea would work nicely. What I mean is that there is no chance for it to be introduced to Bk. Our mod is just a bit stiff, everybody is kinda waiting for the unavoidable and slow armagedon of CoH and us moving to CoH2 when some good mods arrive. Any big reworking of anything is not going to happen, I think. Devs do much more than we could expect for an old mod for an old game with max amount of few thousand players. Actually new versions and bug fixing is a kind of miracle .

[MrEasyUK]

To be brutally honest, Artillery used to be perfect, now the Brit Arty doc has been nerfed so much that it is an absolute disapointment, I mean what were you thinking when making the changes to Brit Artilery doctrine? It didnt need nerfing it was perfect, I recently came back to the game and as an arty player I have to say what has been changed sucked,

People may not like arty, so if you in PvP agree that no one goes arty before the match, dont just mess it up becuase some one says they dont like it.

Firstly the cost of Pioneers and engineers far exceeds the cost in man power points of any over doctine, I mean come on 215 man power points when most doctrines have the engineers at 180. Dont say that the brit engineers can do more becuase the WM Def doctrine engineers do the same if not more and are cheaper.

The Sherman Firelys used to be a decent tank, now they are just pointless peices of paper, how exactly does the arty player advance on the map with tanks that cost so much and have absolutlety no battlefield resilience what so ever.

Arty units, there used to be a bug when remanning the arty unit but after you have built them you cant delete them to relocate them, so once built you cant rebuild once you have advanced, however you can delete the bunkered arty object but still 2 of each unit has spoiled the doctrine.

The dispersion of shots from Brit arty is pathetic, you just have to look at the arty on all the other doctirnes and believe me I have thrashed them out, WM Def arty is more precise and does more damage when it hits, it costs more but come on Brit arty was the finest in WW2.

So disapointed with Arty and thats before I rant on about what has been done to the Brit Armor doctine, why o why did you change what was working so well.

Dont get me wrong, I love BK mod but you have to look at the direction of changes, a lot of them are not great.

I understand the PvP world but none of the changes benefit in PvP

[MarKr]

You say that Arty doc is totally useles now but the only thing you mentioned is "too big dispersion" of 25pounders - if I'm not mistaken we haven't touched that in several patches (or at least for as long as I am in the team).

Then you mention CW Sapper squad cost - yeah, they are more expensive but that is the general rule for pretty much everything CW has. Tommies they are the basic infantry of CW and actually the only combat infantry availble to all CW docs. That puts them on the level of US Rifles. Perhaps Tommies are a bit better but they cost way more than rifles. Anyway they've always been more expensive and as far as I can remember their price hasn't been increased so this is hardly something that recent patches brought.

Firefly: Again, neither it's armor nor the gun has been touched so how come it is suddenly so weak?

So disapointed with Arty and thats before I rant on about what has been done to the Brit Armor doctine, why o why did you change what was working so well.

Could you perhaps give a more detailed description of what is wrong there? For CW Armor doctrine the Churchill tanks were meant to be the "ace in a sleve" - breakthrough tanks with strong armor but weak guns. Before the changes they had shitty guns but also guns as weak as 50mm PaKs could kill them without any bigger problem the result was that nobody ever buit Churchills, perhaps except for the arty version and maybe occasionally Croc. After introduction of the armor boost for Churchills, Axis
players complained that Churchills are "immune" but that was simply because earlier you simply took down Churchills easily, you didn't need to flank them or anything, simply attack frontaly and the tank was destroyed. However later the players found ways to take Churchills down and now you can hear no complaints about them being OP or anything.
Another problem of RE was that they almost always simply sat on tons of ammo (and had no use for it) but were unable to build pretty much anything because of lack of MP so when you finally saved up enough MP to build a tank and then lost it because of some camoed PaK you just waited for MP to accumulate to be able to build something else...so they got price drops on a few units.

So what exactely is now wrong?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Firstly the cost of Pioneers and engineers far exceeds the cost in man power points of any over doctine, I mean come on 215 man power points when most doctrines have the engineers at 180. Dont say that the brit engineers can do more becuase the WM Def doctrine engineers do the same if not more and are cheaper.

The PE units are even more expensive... So what?
Not to mention that the CW Lieutenant bonuses are in fact superior to any other faction officers.. 2 Lieutenants behind a CW rifle section squad will convert them into being some true kind of super elite beasts. I often see them competing, if not actually even beating Storm squads too easily!
They can definitely do so much.

The Sherman Firelys used to be a decent tank, now they are just pointless peices of paper, how exactly does the arty player advance on the map with tanks that cost so much and have absolutlety no battlefield resilience what so ever.

I would repeat the question MarKr has asked u here; what's exactly wrong with the Firefly???!!! It's quite cheap. Reloads too fast... Could also penetrate the KT just like the Comet.. has very decent range and even better rate of fire as long as the stationary position mode is activated. As well as once again superior bonuses from the command Cromwell tank!

Speaking about RA doc in general.. it's doubtlessly still the best arty doc of the whole game for sure... And just like MarKr told u again, the RE doc on the other hand has now become a very useful one too. And not long time ago btw, some people were yet complaining about the Priest as it might be even much more effective than the Hummel.. specifically when using the so called 'aimed salvo' ability! Which is working like if it was guided by the satellite somehow

[JimQwilleran]

I have been playing CW for quite a long time and I don't think your arguments are valid MrEasyUk.

Firstly the cost of Pioneers and engineers far exceeds the cost in man power points of any over doctine, I mean come on 215 man power points when most doctrines have the engineers at 180. Dont say that the brit engineers can do more becuase the WM Def doctrine engineers do the same if not more and are cheaper.

Brit's sappers are best sappers in game. I used them many times to beat volks, even managed to win vs panzergrenadiers. I strongly disagree about them being "weak". All depends on how u use them . Additionally they are capable of building many useful defensive structures. Usually the queue of early brit's game is: Leutnant -> 2 Boys -> mortar pit. In this way brits can lock enemy even until mid game.

The Sherman Firelys used to be a decent tank, now they are just pointless peices of paper, how exactly does the arty player advance on the map with tanks that cost so much and have absolutlety no battlefield resilience what so ever.

Again, I saw them killing every axis tank without a problem. Saw KT killed with 2 shots, other tanks even with 1 shot. If u complain about it's durability, remember it's just a sherman .

Arty units, there used to be a bug when remanning the arty unit but after you have built them you cant delete them to relocate them, so once built you cant rebuild once you have advanced, however you can delete the bunkered arty object but still 2 of each unit has spoiled the doctrine.

U have 2 priests, 2 deletable 25p emplacements, 3 (?) arty cromwells and as much 4,2 inch mortars as u want, and u still complain about 2 guns that can't be moved? Damn, u'r picky.

The dispersion of shots from Brit arty is pathetic, you just have to look at the arty on all the other doctirnes and believe me I have thrashed them out, WM Def arty is more precise and does more damage when it hits, it costs more but come on Brit arty was the finest in WW2.

When I switched from plying arty doc to play a few games as Def doc I was astonished how inaccurate Def howitzer is. Seriously comparing to priest def arty is a joke (except grille).

Maybe you idealized this doc over years . The trap of high expectations .

[MrEasyUK]

Come on a little honesty here, there is no justification for the cost of the Brit engineers what so ever and excuse my mistake they are 315 man power points, Axis just have to build a motor cycle and you have decimated the group, and engineers only decimate back when they have a flame thrower, are we playing the same game here?

As an avid arty player from the days this mod first game out it was a solid stand alone doctrine now it is soft, and unbalanced, the cost of the engineers is not justified, the dispersion of shots has changed that much is for sure, the Firefly was a very versatile tank that could hold its own and help an arty player advance the map, now they get knocked out by the smallest of vehicles....the WM Def arty is far more accurate and granted it costs more so dont tell me the dispersion is the same, its much more accurate, but an arty doc is and should be arty, so why restrict arty? The answer is people don't like arty that is why, so those people want it nerfed, they should just agree no arty before a game.

The dispersion of shots has changed and it has changed dramatically, and it has changed, please don't insult me by telling me otherwise.... the WM def doc has arty and they are more accurate, how the hell can that be right against a doctrine that is arty? lets gets real here, the game has started, you have no idea what doctrines your opponents have chosen until you meet them on the battlefield, or spot the base areas, people play to strengths not to weakness, so you more often than not see them play what are the stronger doctrines (Why are there stronger doctrines because there is an imbalance, end game strengths of a doctrine are pointless if the game is already over ), the time of a match is dictated by many factors, usually by the doctrines and the experience of players and skill, but more so by the doctrines they choose.

Depending on your team make up will dictate how you can advance on a map, for Arty to advance and be in range the player has to relocate his arty units so they are in range, the mobile half tracks serve a purpose and can be versatile but they are not howitzers are they and as versatile as these units can be they are not the 25 pounders, you pop a few Sherman's to cover an area so you advance your mobile arty units and low and behold your Sherman's are knocked out, they are so paper thin it is almost not worth playing, you cant just save your big howitzers once part of the map has been taken, you build your restricted 2 25 pound howitzers and you can not rebuild them elsewhere as they can not be deleted, a bug or whatever it is still wrong, I should be able to build them and replace them elsewhere, I can with the 25 pounder fortified emplacement, if I have to build an early game arty it will be the halftracks, if the game is not going as it should then I need to build 25 pounders, I dont think it is right that I pay more for the emplacement just because I can delete the damned thing, come on guys get a grip here...... the game used to have a great deal of versatility and choice, so much has been far too restricted unit wise.

The priests demonstrate what the arty units should be like damage wise but the shots should not cost 75 ammo points, especially when you have a minority of players who like low resources, I mean what planet are these guys on? It can be fun micro managing stuff but it bores the living daylights out of me, myself along with guys I play with love the high resources of a map to make the battle more furious and interesting, exciting and above all intense and enjoyable, that to me was the magic of the BK mod.

You have taken away too much from the Brit doctrines and it sucks, just look at what you have done with the Croc, you have taken away key elements of the Brit doctrines and added to others.
I can guarantee some one will say Brits are fine..... and if they do they lack honesty and most likely say it is fine because it makes them look sexy on the forums... you need to get the Brits back to what they were otherwise why am I playing BK Mod if the Brit docs suck?

The preist is a good unit, and yes it is mobile, at 75 ammo points you only fire them when needed or with plenty of ammo as your max 600 points ammo get consumed too quickly what exactly is your point, please dont pick at what I am saying, atleast try to agree with the other points I have raised.

[MrEasyUK]

MrEasyUK"]The Sherman Firelys used to be a decent tank, now they are just pointless pieces of paper, how exactly does the arty player advance on the map with tanks that cost so much and have absolutely no battlefield resilience what so ever.

Again, I saw them killing every axis tank without a problem. Saw KT killed with 2 shots, other tanks even with 1 shot. If u complain about it's durability, remember it's just a sherman .

You need to open your eyes, you used to be able hull down these units why that was taken away is beyond me, and they are as soft as paper and don't help an arty player advance the map, I don't want to be playing 3 hour games because I have to defend, I am playing this game every day since I came back and I can tell you the sherman firefly is like paper in the Brit Arty Doc and presently pointless, don't feed me with crap please. Yes once in a blue moon sherman gets a lucky shot, how many blue moons do you see, I do not see many at all. Its a Sherman but its what I have along with a TD to advance or go offencive.

U have 2 priests, 2 deletable 25p emplacements, 3 (?) arty cromwells and as much 4,2 inch mortars as u want, and u still complain about 2 guns that can't be moved? Damn, u'r picky.

I have tanks that are as soft a paper, I have arty units with shocking dispersion, I have 2 arty units that can not be deleted to relocate, come on dude get a grip on reality, you think I am picky, its a damned ball ache in some matches.

i think it is great the mod is still going and credit to them, but you either listen and make changes or you do nothing, if you do nothing what happens? I don't lack conviction, if being picky pointing out what is wrong then guilty as charged, if you prefer I sod off and play another game instead of pointing out what is crap then fine, no problem.

[Krieger Blitzer]

You need to open your eyes, you used to be able hull down these units why that was taken away is beyond me

Hmm?? Why should the Firefly be able to hull down in RA doc??? Only RE is able to do such a thing... Just exactly like as supposed.

I want to report a bug btw; sometimes the Firefly can still move although the stationary position is activated!
I haven't tried it out myself but I think I have seen it through one of Mr.Nobody's videos somewhere.. anyway I will try to check it when I get the chance or if not, then I will just do it when I am back with my laptop next June hopefully.

I have 2 arty units that can not be deleted to relocate

Well, what about decrewing them using flamethrowers or hand grenades? By killing ur own howitzers crew.. I guess this way u could build another anywhere else or even exceed the limit if u ever want ^^ It's often the same of what players are usually doing with Nebels btw

You have taken away too much from the Brit doctrines and it sucks, just look at what you have done with the Croc, you have taken away key elements of the Brit doctrines and added to others.

Yes, it might be true that a lot has been taking away from CW docs... But Axis were nerfed too! RAF for example can't build 17p emplacements anymore.. but Blitz doc Storms can no longer crawl without the veterancy unlock.

I can guarantee some one will say Brits are fine..... and if they do they lack honesty and most likely say it is fine because it makes them look sexy on the forums... you need to get the Brits back to what they were otherwise why am I playing BK Mod if the Brit docs suck?

U have apparently missed a lot. So, u either HAVE TO take a closer look at the overall balance before speaking... Or to just keep silent plz.. u gotta have to stop ranting only about ur beloved Brits, srsly mate.

[JimQwilleran]

Ok, first of all.

Come on a little honesty here, there is no justification for the cost of the Brit engineers what so ever and excuse my mistake they are 315 man power points, Axis just have to build a motor cycle and you have decimated the group, and engineers only decimate back when they have a flame thrower, are we playing the same game here?

In the first moments of the game you don't pay for your engineers. So the argument "I payed 315 and the motorcycle came and killed all" is invalid. After 1 min you have boys. I will say again: if you can't use your units u won't succeed with them. And to be honest you are first one here to be crying so much about things that has been working well for quite a long time. Furthermore I have never seen brit's sappers equipped with flamethrower, are you sure you are not mistaking BK with Vanilla ? Or are u sure you play our version of the game? Check if you are extremely sure it's 4.9.5 patch.

As an avid arty player from the days this mod first game out it was a solid stand alone doctrine now it is soft, and unbalanced, the cost of the engineers is not justified, the dispersion of shots has changed that much is for sure, the Firefly was a very versatile tank that could hold its own and help an arty player advance the map, now they get knocked out by the smallest of vehicles....

Saying again.... all depends on how you operate with your units. Firefly is a good tank, but it's not 1st line tank. It is not supposed to act like tiger, panther or stupa. It is an ace in a sleeve for British player if the enemy armour arrives. Also I told you already. It get's killed even by smallest vehicle (what is that supposed to mean anyway?) because IT'S JUST A SHERMAN.

the WM Def arty is far more accurate and granted it costs more so dont tell me the dispersion is the same, its much more accurate, but an arty doc is and should be arty, so why restrict arty? The answer is people don't like arty that is why, so those people want it nerfed, they should just agree no arty before a game.
The dispersion of shots has changed and it has changed dramatically, and it has changed, please don't insult me by telling me otherwise.... the WM def doc has arty and they are more accurate, how the hell can that be right against a doctrine that is arty?

Omg, again. Why do you repeat the same arguments two times? Def doc has no chance vs arty doc. Seriously, I must say u are pretty poor player if you lose vs def. 1 priest can kill any def doc howizer without a problem. If you use flame salvo, it can kill any def doc emplacement, except bunkers. Actually the easiest doc to kill with arty is def, due to lack of good assault force that can break your positions. Anything else you can bomb with ur arty. Well, provided u actually know how to use it.

Depending on your team make up will dictate how you can advance on a map, for Arty to advance and be in range the player has to relocate his arty units so they are in range, the mobile half tracks serve a purpose and can be versatile but they are not howitzers are they and as versatile as these units can be they are not the 25 pounders, you pop a few Sherman's to cover an area so you advance your mobile arty units and low and behold your Sherman's are knocked out, they are so paper thin it is almost not worth playing, you cant just save your big howitzers once part of the map has been taken, you build your restricted 2 25 pound howitzers and you can not rebuild them elsewhere as they can not be deleted, a bug or whatever it is still wrong, I should be able to build them and replace them elsewhere, I can with the 25 pounder fortified emplacement, if I have to build an early game arty it will be the halftracks, if the game is not going as it should then I need to build 25 pounders, I dont think it is right that I pay more for the emplacement just because I can delete the damned thing, come on guys get a grip here...... the game used to have a great deal of versatility and choice, so much has been far too restricted unit wise.

I don't really understand that part... your writing could use more comas. But if you still have such a huuuge problem with those 2 little 25p u can't move, do as Tiger said: decrew them with grenade or flamethrower.

The priests demonstrate what the arty units should be like damage wise but the shots should not cost 75 ammo points, especially when you have a minority of players who like low resources,
The preist is a good unit, and yes it is mobile, at 75 ammo points you only fire them when needed or with plenty of ammo as your max 600 points ammo get consumed too quickly

Priest salvo costs 50 ammo... Whoopsie? I wouldn't say that minority likes low res... I think it's the opposite.
Last but not least.

I can guarantee some one will say Brits are fine..... and if they do they lack honesty and most likely say it is fine because it makes them look sexy on the forums...

Are you retarded? Just because you remember BK version 1.4 with Jagdtiger in luft and crock in arty docs, everyone else who likes the current version is stupid or faking? I guess it's not really worth talking to you anymore.

please dont pick at what I am saying, atleast try to agree with the other points I have raised.

No.

U have apparently missed a lot. So, u either HAVE TO take a closer look at the overall balance before speaking

This time I agree. Yes, before complaining about that things changed, try to check if they changed for good or bad? If your compstomps aren't so cool as they used to be, sorry it's PvP mod mainly.

[MarKr]

Come on a little honesty here, there is no justification for the cost of the Brit engineers what so ever

Really? Consider this:

Code: Select all

US Base:
Barracks: 150MP 15F
WSC: 175MP 15F
Motorpool: 250MP 20F
Tank Depot: 300MP 50F (+upgrade for accessing further units)
Quartermaster: 150MP 40F

Alltogether: 1025MP 140F
+ there are upgrades (now I don't count weapon and ammo upgrades, only those from WSC and QuarterMaster) for your army that make your units more effective in the battle and these upgrades cost further resources.

Wehrmacht Base:
Barracks: 150MP 15F
Vehicles: 300MP 20F
Medium Tanks: 325MP 50F
Heavy Tanks: 400MP 60F

Phases:
2: 50MP 15F
3: 50MP 30F
4: 75MP 40F
Alltogether: 1350MP 230F

PE:
Barracks: 150MP 10F
Vehicles: 250MP 25F (+30F for tech upgrade)
Support: 550MP 60F 
Jagdpanzer: 350MP 50F 
Upgrade building: 150MP 10F
There is also an upgrade for accesing more units for 75Fuel that can be bought either in Support or Jagdpanzer building.

Alltogether: 1450MP 185F
+ similarly to US there are upgrades for your army that cost further MP and in this case Ammo

And now Brits:
Lieutenant: 150MP 15F
2nd truck: 250MP 35F
Captain: 200MP 30F
Armor Truck: 200MP 50F
Command tank: 300MP 70F

Alltogether: 1100MP 200F
And you get the advantage of mobile production "buildings" so you can build your units closer to the front and don't need to send them over half of the map - especially handy on bigger maps.

All in all Brits need to spend the least resources on accessing their units and except for CP they don't spend resources on global upgrades, if I'm not mistaken. Thus, their units - especially the early ones - are more expensive.

I share the oppinon on points that Jim and Tiger wrote, so I won't repeat them.

just look at what you have done with the Croc

What did we do with Croc? It got stronger armor than before - it actually has the strongest armor of all allied tanks (perhaps comparable to SP? Not sure now.) but before it was capable of destroying panthers and KTs with its main gun (with TC and AP ammo and bit of luck) it is still very usefull. If your opponent had not fielded anything stronger than 75mm L48 they are knee-deep in shit because those things can't do much against it. However the tanks still needs support because it's gun is weak. It can chew infantry nicely but for taking down Heavy tanks you still need Firefly or simply something with stronger punch.

As for Hulldown - I haven't been around when the mod was first released but as far back as I can remember (about two years) Hulldown has been available only to RE doc. The only noticable change that we made here was that Hulldown and Static Position cannot be activated at the same time - bonuses from both mods stacked together + if you had Command tank near Firefly could fire extremely fast (like really the delay between shots was something over 1.5 seconds) something like that was not an intention.

@Tiger - yes, the static position bug has been reported already, I'll have a look at it when I got time.

[Armacalic]

are you sure you are not mistaking BK with Vanilla ?

CoughVanillaSappersdon'thaveflamethrowerseitherCough.

[JimQwilleran]

CaughHolyShitItHasBeenCaughYearsSinceIplayedVanillaForTheLastTimeCaughThanksCaugh .

[MrEasyUK]

Gees i got the ammo cost wrong, but you dont seem to wish to acknowldge what I am saying and just about every god damned player i know agrees with me.

Atleast give the RA a decent top end tank for crying out loud!

[JimQwilleran]

every god damned player i know agrees with me.

Damn, I have heard this argument already ...

Of course I acknowledge what you say, but I also choose to disagree with it.

RA won't (probably) have any "decent top end tank for crying out loud!" from the same reason that SE doesn't have one, or armor doc doesn't have any arty unit besides caliope. Doesn't that seem to be clear?

Try to look at the game as a whole, not just your favourite doc.

[Devilfish]

SE doesn't have one

They actually do, you forgot BeuteBeute, a pathetic capitalistic Sherman, risen from the dust of western worthlessness to a mighty machine running on nazi steroids!

On a more serious note, I find RA doc totally boring, because they just have arty and that's it. Maybe I'm just missing something, hence I'm nOOb and don't play it much (never almost), but yea. SE seems much more appealing to me, they have more interesting stuff to offer. Like BeuteBeute....just kidding. Does anybody even play this game anymore?....

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

SE doesn't have one

They actually do, you forgot BeuteBeute, a pathetic capitalistic Sherman, risen from the dust of western worthlessness to a mighty machine running on nazi steroids!

On a more serious note, I find RA doc totally boring, because they just have arty and that's it. Maybe I'm just missing so
mething, hence I'm nOOb and don't play it much (never almost), but yea. SE seems much more appealing to me, they have more interesting stuff to offer. Like BeuteBeute....just kidding. Does anybody even play this game anymore?....

I do at the weekends, but game is quite empty everytime, havent seen a lot of old players who used to play daily for months:(

[JimQwilleran]

SE doesn't have one

They actually do, you forgot BeuteBeute, a pathetic capitalistic Sherman, risen from the dust of western worthlessness to a mighty machine running on nazi steroids!

On a more serious note, I find RA doc totally boring, because they just have arty and that's it. Maybe I'm just missing so
mething, hence I'm nOOb and don't play it much (never almost), but yea. SE seems much more appealing to me, they have more interesting stuff to offer. Like BeuteBeute....just kidding. Does anybody even play this game anymore?....

I do at the weekends, but game is quite empty everytime, havent seen a lot of old players who used to play daily for months:(

I get games everyday. Almost anytime I want .

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

They actually do, you forgot BeuteBeute, a pathetic capitalistic Sherman, risen from the dust of western worthlessness to a mighty machine running on nazi steroids!

On a more serious note, I find RA doc totally boring, because they just have arty and that's it. Maybe I'm just missing so
mething, hence I'm nOOb and don't play it much (never almost), but yea. SE seems much more appealing to me, they have more interesting stuff to offer. Like BeuteBeute....just kidding. Does anybody even play this game anymore?....
I do at the weekends, but game is quite empty everytime, havent seen a lot of old players who used to play daily for months:

I get games everyday. Almost anytime I want .

Noob match is easy to get, but I dont like this kind of games.

[JimQwilleran]

Noob match is easy to get, but I dont like this kind of games.

Other players are not as noobish as u think, mr. Zeus the god of gods.

[MrEasyUK]

every god damned player i know agrees with me.

Damn, I have heard this argument already ...

Of course I acknowledge what you say, but I also choose to disagree with it.

RA won't (probably) have any "decent top end tank for crying out loud!" from the same reason that SE doesn't have one, or armor doc doesn't have any arty unit besides caliope. Doesn't that seem to be clear?

Try to look at the game as a whole, not just your favourite doc.

And perhaps no improvement will ever be made, the RA doctrine will stay as it is, nerfed and a total disapointment, well done your realy taking the mod backwards. Keep up the self important and smarmy replies and pay little attention to feedback from players. You cant see that the RA doc needs improvement, so there is little point reading any reply you make, probably best to go play another game if that is your attitude like many other players that appear to of deserted the mod.

[kwok]

I left the mod not because of balance but because of players either always complaining or acting rude to others players and devs.
I know many others who have left for that reason too. The behavior of the people lead to bad gameplay. Bad attitude begets bad gameplay. People think it's a balance problem when it is really an attitude problem, players unwilling to change and putting the blame on others, whether it be a noob teammate or heavily criticized dev.

[MrEasyUK]

It is blatantly apparent that the RA doc needs improvement, being replied to like a moron doesn't help either, if these people cant see the problematic issues with the RA Doctrine, as a team player in PvP or skirmish then there is little point in raising the issue further.

All you see atm is players playing the stronger doctrines.. people might not like or take well to criticism, and if you think the responses here are positive or in the good of the mod then your kidding yourself. I have one issue and that's the RA doctrine, it is plain to see what I am saying.

I had a break from the game for over a year and some of the changes are good, some of them are not so good, the RA Doctrine is terrible in comparison to what it was and I used to Play RA all the time, that enjoyment for me has disapeared so what do i do, go play WM Def to get the ballance that Brit RA once had or stop playing?