Sherman E8 vs Tiger

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Warhawks97
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Warhawks97 » 27 Dec 2014, 18:58

Yummy wrote:First of all, there is no Marder II in game, Oliver. There is Marder I which is pretty good, and Marder III which lacks MG and it has horrible accuracy (Wolf check this unit, please).
And that E8 is a good example for Warhawks who always cry how weak USA armour is, where I disagree. 1 tiger cost a little less than 3 E8, and a tiger doesn't stand a chance against 3 E8. Furthermore USA has early/no fuel dependent Jumbo sherman, which wins games. This 5% chance is fine but Germans feel more pain from it than allies.



Just that US armor doc is often overruned by Tank IV´s. In early game when i get a sherman against inf+ single Hellcat my upkeep is dropped by almost 10 lmfao. So with a average income on most maps with about 20-25 its about half down!

A Marder cost 0 upkeep and Tank IV or hetzers just 2!


Also a single 88 and armor doc a checkmated. I played a game with just random teams and my teammate with luftwaffe did set up a single 88 and the game was lost for him. The arty player was in toruble, teamplay in booth teams were poor and when the luft player couldnt kill the jumbo with his inf he simply build up one 88, later a second, and 5 shermans (including jumbo) had been destroyed before doing a single shot on 88. He had no other option than spamming in hope that one sherman survives to hit an 88. One came in range but got killed before doing a shot.


And the fuel upgrade isnt really effective. spending in total 75 fuel to get +10. 7 mins to play to get this back and after further 6 mins one e8. At that time the opponent easily got 3 Tank IV´s. Calculating that booth are upgraded after 20 mins (which means no other tank than jumbo call in at that time and which is already much earlier as usual) you would need to play further 13-15 mins. So in a game that is lasting one hour (which is already longer than most others) the us armor player would get like one more or two e8. And afaik the second fuel upgrade needs upgraded production so most of the time the advantage gained of that "fuel boost" is like 0 or even -0.

And unless the other supply yard upgrades (especially final one) are upgraded this doc dies an upkeep death anyway. Remember that two tanks reducing the income by 8-10 which is almost a drop of 50% (wtf). Compared to that the Bk doc player need to have 4-5 Tank IV H´s for such an income drop. Also the 4 CP for fuel res trade is quickly made and 100 ammo isnt that much (i dont give HE rounds to my Tank IV´s for example). And one click and i get fuel for 1 and a half Tank IV and fuel upkeep is entirely bypassed. This is done easily within 30 mins.



and 3 e8 for one Tiger? The US armor sherman mass production has to balance out that there is no such a support on inf, arty or whatever such as BK doc or terror has. I am usually comparing basic build costs because mass productions is mostly to balance out the lack of other support stuff. That way mass production is balanced out by the fact that BK and Terror doc has inf with schrecks that can kill all kind of armor while bazookas becoming fast usless in pvp´s against heavier armor.


A basic e8 cost 500/80 or if you want a 76 sherman 460/60 currently. So two e8 cost in fact more more than one tiger + the fact that those need usually HVAP rounds while tiger dont need any ammo to deal with shermans. Keep all that in mind pls.


But i guess that post was rather something to bother me as you like to do that and i shouldnt even write a comment on that.


You could also compare two Tank IV H from bk doc vs two e8. The Tank IV´s cost more in MP but by far less in fuel (esspecially upkeep). Res needed to get tank IV is by far less than to get an e8. Its´almost sure that the Tank IV´s will win (booth fight with normal AP rounds).


For the Marder:
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... arder2.htm
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/n ... der_II.php

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... arder1.htm
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/n ... rder-I.php




I am not sure which one is it as booth had many different looks.

Yummy
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Yummy » 27 Dec 2014, 19:16

You are not objective, Oliver. USA tanks are not bad at all. Over repaired E8 with sandbags can take 2, even 3 tiger shots if there is no misses. So what you want is to have cheap upgrades that make these tanks really durable and even able to spam them? What will axis do if you are able to spam tanks sandbags and jumbo in early/mid game?
And we do not have marder II in game, we only have marder I and marder III(with ambush ability).

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V13dweller
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby V13dweller » 27 Dec 2014, 19:26

Warhawks always under-rates US tanks, and his penetration values on the Panzer IV gun is massively exaggerated, under a control test the Panzer IV Ausf F2 bounced about 1/3 shots on an E8 with sandbags, the the US 76mm At emplacement or that mobile one penetrates Panzer IV's of all kinds without much trouble.

Also, 3 76(W)'s usually don't have any trouble against a Tiger, even two can be fatal, and on Armour doctrine, this is easily affordable on a map with good fuel.

Kasbah
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Kasbah » 27 Dec 2014, 20:35

Yes, the unpredictable factor is a constant for some units in this game. In fact the unpredictable is starting to become a rule. Yesterday I have seen my Flak level 2 bouncing off a jumbo at medium/far distance. Nothing, no damage. Later, it destroyed another in a single shot.

If a video game is about numbers and maths how all this "luck" is possible? How can there be such amazing random stuff?

Two 76 are fatal against a Tiger (even one sometimes), that's right, not to mention three E8. And Precisely 2 76 and 3 E8 is the price of a Tiger (a little less now as they will be even cheaper...) While until 4.60 version you paid a lot (980 mp and 180 fuel afair) for getting a tank that could change a game and was very resistant, now you pay a little less but you have to micro it constantly and see how it is subject to random happenings like this one shot from an E8 that costs a third of it.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Warhawks97 » 27 Dec 2014, 22:03

V13dweller wrote:Warhawks always under-rates US tanks, and his penetration values on the Panzer IV gun is massively exaggerated, under a control test the Panzer IV Ausf F2 bounced about 1/3 shots on an E8 with sandbags, the the US 76mm At emplacement or that mobile one penetrates Panzer IV's of all kinds without much trouble.

Also, 3 76(W)'s usually don't have any trouble against a Tiger, even two can be fatal, and on Armour doctrine, this is easily affordable on a map with good fuel.



E8 gives 0.85 multiplier afaik which reduces pen to 80-81% and second sanbag another 0.85 which makes 68% against E8. But e8 is more a late game tank:

Tank IV is ready to be deployed when WE player spends 875 mp and 130 fuel into upgrades. Each Tank IV has 2 fuel upkeep.
E8 is ready to be deployed when US player spends 1075 and 205 fuel into buildings and upgrades (no sandbags)! So there are easily several Tank IV´s when e8 comes. And thats how it is in game. Each e8 eats then 4 fuel upkeep.

I play often BK and armor doc and when doing so the Jumbo is the only real threat against my tank IV´s but keeps rather in a defensive position as it is too costly and important. And there it also happens that Jumbo getting oneshoted by a tank IV. But at times i have two Tank IV´s i face not a single 76 or e8 and i can push very hard with them, overruning also 76 mm paks sometimes (i uploaded several replays where i did so in old forum).

Same when i play armor doc. I am testing often new strategys but against skilled players pushing with tank IV´s i havent found any real alternative to Jumbo. I tested as i said sherman and M10/18 at times i faced already up to 1-3 Tank IVs. Only Hellcat was effective but then also only from ambush and usually HVAP to be sure. Most of the time i try to get Tank commander as early as possible but i often face with my 2-3 Tanks (sherman 75 and tankbuster) up to 3 Tank IV´s. And if i do have an M10, sherman and M18 my fuel income is reduced by 12 whereas the axis with 3 Tank Iv´s i reduced by 6 only.

So either i have to make sure to kill 2-3 Tank IV´s with my Hellcat (or my single Jumbo) or i will simply lose the first "spam fight".

I havent seen an 76 or e8 in any pvp game in a very long time. Mostly armor players have just like 5 Tanks in one game (4vs4). Its often 1 Jumbo in mid-late game, 1-2 75mm shermans against inf and then Hellcat. Late game either a Jackson or Persh(ace). Most of the time axis had more build tanks at the end of the game.



Also im playing often with inf doc and also playing against good players and even good airborne players from SVT. The inf doc can spam in late game, even rangers and even more rifles. Airborne, if played correctly and keeping the early 101st alive, is also very well playable in quantity winning simply in numbers. Only armor doc has always a few units on the field but never going to spam. Its only Jumbo, Jacks and Persh with command vehicle but i never really see sherman spam. Most dont even upgrade sandbags anymore.


So its a fact that a single Jumbo and later persh with command vehicle is always much better than any spam attempt which is basically impossible due to massive fuel upkeep and "upgrades" which are needed for spam but which are in fact "downgrades". Which way you choose (with or without upgrades) the armor player dies on fuel supply issues. Either the fuel upkeep kills them when trying to "spam" or the upgrades to compensate that upkeep partly eats the fuel. I tested, calculated, did just everything and came always to the same result. Jumbo is only valid counter against the first Tank IV´s and 50% of the game and res is wasted for neccessary upgrades here and there.

BK doc with its Tank IV´s is more straight forward: Unlock-> build, build, build and attack.
US armor doc with its shermans: unlcok-> build one, upgrade here, upgrade there, second tank-> fuel in come almost 0. Tank production stops so far. Continuesly push as i am used to do it with BK doc is not possible.

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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Tony_Frost » 27 Dec 2014, 22:12

Warhawks97 wrote:Against Tiger it is 43% at point blank and arround 25% at max range. There was no buff in any patch, only got cheaper.


There was an AP rounds buff but in 4.70 changelod it had non clear description, almost joky, something like "Now AP rounds become more than just armor wasting"

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Warhawks97
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Warhawks97 » 27 Dec 2014, 22:42

Tony_Frost wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:Against Tiger it is 43% at point blank and arround 25% at max range. There was no buff in any patch, only got cheaper.


There was an AP rounds buff but in 4.70 changelod it had non clear description, almost joky, something like "Now AP rounds become more than just armor wasting"



I am not sure but its about 80% vs Tiger on max range. Still i had M10´s with HVAP bouncing from Tank IV´s so i dont really know.


Still lets say you have two 76 shermans (not armor doc or no mass prod) you would need to pay for upgrade and activation of HVAP 100 for each, 200 in total. Tiger dont need anything on ammo and does huge damage, mostly crit if not simply oneshot. Means that one has wated 100 ammo without scoring a hit even. Everybody thinks that HVAP is always available and in 1 vs 1 might be so as 1 vs 1 maps provide a lot more ammo and fuel. But on 2 vs 2 its only autry and in 3 vs 3 only road to cherbough which has so much ammo. Other maps simply dont and often i dont even upgrade my Tanks with AP rounds except my Tank destroyers.


And if you compare to persh the Tiger is badass. BK Tiger cost 900/155 and kills inf very good and bazookas are pretty useless (like in my last game where several salvos simply bounced). The Persh cost 830/160 but is often easily rushed by schrecks. Often i just need 2-3 schrecks or one squad and an ace is even heavily damaged. All that need to be considered as well.


And if you fail then with 2 e8 to kill the tiger and those is suddenly vet 2 then you gonna have huge problems for sure simply because of the abilties (flank speed, tigerphobia, long range shot etc).


So if you have no luck with 2 e8-> enemie has vet tiger and you lost res.
If you have luck then you still lost maybe one e8. Even if no one is killed by tiger its pretty normal that one will be crippled and quickly finished.
A draw most likely results in a Tiger retreat and a lost sherman.

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DaŇjeL_SK
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby DaŇjeL_SK » 30 Dec 2014, 13:14

Warhawks, why u can't write like every normal ordinary user ? Why this essays ?

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DaŇjeL_SK
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby DaŇjeL_SK » 05 Jan 2015, 00:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8uzTveipGM
here is inverse situation.... Skilled PzkpfwVI and right produced M4A3(76)W
That guy left, so it is commended by CPU. U can see 4 shots (normal at shots PzGr.39) from side.
I wanna ask how it is with luck in game ? Is this made purposely or is that result of damage system ?

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Wolf
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Wolf » 05 Jan 2015, 00:24

Bad luck, you just had many crits instead of destroy crit.
Image

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Tiger1996
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Tiger1996 » 05 Jan 2015, 10:31

@Danjel; Once, I had 5 Panzerschreck rockets that were fired on a normal Vet0 M4 Sherman but it didn't die.. all was about critical hits only too... Happens! ^^ aaa I really wish if I immediately fly back to Qatar in order to be able to upload those videos which I am promising as soon as possible :) Those videos will be representing some fearsome beasts again including Tigers and Panthers!!!

But hey u... It seems u did something wrong while recording using ur LiteCam HD program dude; Why those icons are appearing on the sides??!! Check back my videos again. These shouldn't be shown!!
Also, is ur game 'model detail' option set to be max??!! I doubt that. U have to know that it's the most important setting of them all as it's the responsible option of the units or I mean the models not to get disappeared from a further camera view... ;)

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Warhawks97
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Jan 2015, 13:45

DaŇjeL_SK wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8uzTveipGM
here is inverse situation.... Skilled PzkpfwVI and right produced M4A3(76)W
That guy left, so it is commended by CPU. U can see 4 shots (normal at shots PzGr.39) from side.
I wanna ask how it is with luck in game ? Is this made purposely or is that result of damage system ?



I also made a game yesterday. I drove towards and ambushed US 76 mm pak with two Tank IV. From like 6 fired shots just one hit one of my Tanks. I also have Tank IV´s sometimes that survive two 17 pounder hits with only main gun damaged.
Also bot is simply strange+ sandbags had been a 600 mp and 50 fuel investment (even 85 as upgraded production is required).

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DaŇjeL_SK
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby DaŇjeL_SK » 08 Jan 2015, 20:10

This is what I am angry for, because too much is based on luck. Sometimes I don't even try play, just ask for rematch, because it is not like one lucky moment.... it's often all game... one game jumbo penetrated by every shot of everything another game ultimate unpenetrable tank... also get VET and then is completely immortal. The same is with all other units.

Kasbah
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Re: Sherman E8 vs Tiger

Postby Kasbah » 09 Jan 2015, 08:19

Yeah but you can do nothing because most of thinks are based on "luck" (funny to use that word on a video game made of mathematics and algorithms) and this explains most of things that happen wihout any logic.


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