Sherman E8 vs Tiger

[DaŇjeL_SK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivg-HicHWeg
Here u can see, how nerfing of Axis ruined this mod. This happened to BKwaffenCZ. Sherman had 2 vet, tiger didn't have commander, but this could never happen. It's not about bad luck. Similar things are happening all the time. Tiger cost twice man power and triple fuel. And in real, was uncompareable better. U can easily see, how late was reaction of that guy by US armor and how he won it without doubts. This thing was the last straw for bkwaffen.... He is second my friend who ended, because it is ruined.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

That was a lucky 5% hit, which can happen to any vehicles, yesterday i lost Super pershing, it was one shoted by PaK 40, lol.

[MarKr]

Dude, c'mon... 5% lucky shot is in BK for gods-knows-how-long. This happens once in a while but surely it doesn't happen with every second or third shot. People just start swear all over the place when it happens and they are pissed off which is understandable but surely not the fault of "nerfing Axis".

[DaŇjeL_SK]

It's about that nooby reaction of Goro and one shot kill. BKwaffenCZ didn't destroyed that sherman by 2 shots from side.

[MarKr]

OK, but the first shot took like 3/4 of E8's health and the second shot was a miss.

Tiger still has better stats than E8.

Nooby reaction... Well, maybe but even noobs get lucky shot sometimes...you cannot discriminate against noobs with lucky shots...that would be discrimination!

[Warhawks97]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivg-HicHWeg
Here u can see, how nerfing of Axis ruined this mod. This happened to BKwaffenCZ. Sherman had 2 vet, tiger didn't have commander, but this could never happen. It's not about bad luck. Similar things are happening all the time. Tiger cost twice man power and triple fuel. And in real, was uncompareable better. U can easily see, how late was reaction of that guy by US armor and how he won it without doubts. This thing was the last straw for bkwaffen.... He is second my friend who ended, because it is ruined.

Tiger got cheaper, HP buff and armor buff.


Also shit happens. I see JP´s doing head on attacks on 17 pounder without receiving any damage and 17 pounder bounces 3 times and then JP get oneshoted simply by US pak.

In a game 1 or two month ago the enemies persh ace got oneshoted by Marder II without using any special ammo. I also had Jumbo vet 2 get simply oneshoted by Panzer IV J. I had M10 with HVAP ammo, AP rounds and command vehicle assault tactics bouncing 2 times on panther from point blank and the 76 sherman twice as well.

3 Weeks ago i faced a panther rushing upon a ambushed 17 pounder and got hit 4 times. 2 penetrated and when panther was facing the 17 pounders barrel end with destroyed engine and 17 pounder bounced and the top turret gunner killed the 17 pounder which was a turning point of that game.


I could create a list if things ive seen that would be larger than all posts together. Or i faced Jagdpanther without anything and my ambushed max leveled Jacks with commander max vet an AP rounds froum ambush simply bounced just like the 4 76 shermans arround. Jacks and 2 e8 down and JP had not even serious damage.



Also how often did you see Tigers getting damaged by 57 mm paks, bazookas or anything like that and then pls tell me how often you see shermans get damaged and killed by 50 mm paks and schrecks.

I also guess that the sherman had commander and as you said vet 2 and probably HVAP ammo in use. Without that and without HVAP you would need 3 shermans on max range killing the tiger.


Edit: there was a Tank Commander inside. Note the "rings" above the sherman. Also second Tiger shot failed or whatever+ it was mid range so far, not max range+ he activated HVAP ammo.

SO whats your problem here men? once again: Vet 2 sherman+ commander (probably vet as well)+ mid range+HVAP rounds + second tiger shot failed! What do you suggest now? drp tiger cost? Buff it even more?


Pointless topic.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

It's like when will StuG destroy Peshing. This mod is ruined. Firefly in lock down have longer range than tiger.... u can say, lock down... but... WTF ? ... driver is helping with shooting, then have vehicle longer range ? nice joke... only kwk 43 was more acurate than kwk 40, but .17 have longer range. .17 pounder is more powerful, than was. It wasn't better than kwk40 or 42. Why is in this game Jagdtiger, when could be penetrated from front by pershing or .17 ? ... other thing to other topic is british arty. Deadly accurate. Yes they had accurate arty. But germans hadn't ? Germans had the most accurate guns in war. But in thi mod is cromwel and churchill with 95mm better than wespe and priest with stupid american 105 is better and more powerfull than hummel with 150. I like germans, but when I want win, I must play allies. In last 30-50 matches I have most of wins by allies, and my stats by germans are getting worse. That's all. And that upcoming patch... I have no words. I will probably stop playing this mod too.

[Warhawks97]

It's like when will StuG destroy Peshing. This mod is ruined. Firefly in lock down have longer range than tiger.... u can say, lock down... but... WTF ? ... driver is helping with shooting, then have vehicle longer range ? nice joke... only kwk 43 was more acurate than kwk 40, but .17 have longer range. .17 pounder is more powerful, than was. It wasn't better than kwk40 or 42. Why is in this game Jagdtiger, when could be penetrated from front by pershing or .17 ? ... other thing to other topic is british arty. Deadly accurate. Yes they had accurate arty. But germans hadn't ? Germans had the most accurate guns in war. But in thi mod is cromwel and churchill with 95mm better than wespe and priest with stupid american 105 is better and more powerfull than hummel with 150. I like germans, but when I want win, I must play allies. In last 30-50 matches I have most of wins by allies, and my stats by germans are getting worse. That's all. And that upcoming patch. I will probably stop playing this mod too.

I have no idea why lockdown increases range but same for stugs and marders.

Also you cant know what can pen a JT and what cant. We have theory on one hand and unpredictable things on the other.


German most accurate guns? good gunsights but if you do researches about arty its not really true. Talking about arty would mean that US arty is entirely mechanized and german somteimes horse drawn buts that just impossible.


Also which german guns are you refering to? comparing US 105 with german 105 lefh 18? What is better on axis gun?

The cromwell and and arty church with 95 mm have low range (lowest of all arty in games i think) and to that you should add that nebelwerfer rocket arty has too much range and accuracy as it had in reality but thats partly for balance reasons or not.


And nope, the 150 mm is probably most devastating arty in game. Huge splash and very good damage against everything, even against RE emplacments.

[Wolf]

Tiger got only buffed since 4.8 iirc, 17pdrs didn't get any buff, so while this is sad story, unless you want to make game that is not based on random stuff... you have to expect things like that. It could go totally different way if second tiger shot would not miss (which doesn't happen often imho, so two bad moments = sad for axis this time).

[Olhausen]

S....happens XD lucky shot XD

[Krieger Blitzer]

Danjel... Get to the point!!
It's not about Axis being weaker or even Allies being stronger. It's not about a balance issue but honestly about a stupid feature that hits all the units or factions and also the game in general to be purely controlled by a certain luck! That's the issue.

As that actually.. no! I can no way confirm that Tigers in Bk mod are not good. On the contrary... It's probably the best tank which I easily could get very high kill ratios with it. I guess u very well know about that too! If I am not mistaken.. u were also one of those who saw specifically my Tigers having such high kill ratios If not; then just check my few YouTube channel videos plz to see how good things are about Tigers in Bk!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL1smrX7fPc (More videos including even greater scenes about Tigers will be uploaded soon) ^^

What ur short video shows is the 5% lucky 'heck' shot! That's exactly what this topic should be talking about! I mean.. that's the point and not about some units or a faction to be weaker or stronger than supposed for example.
On this link http://blitzkrieg-mod.de/board/topic/50 ... ge-system/ U can see that I demanded before on the old forums while creating a poll about that ridiculous pure lucky feature to be removed. But as u can see the result wasn't anyway good. My topic had been later locked and claimed to be pointless too!!!!

[Kasbah]

Sure luck exists and sure Tigers got amor buff. But what happened just before 4.70?
I play this mod since early 2010 and these kind of things just started to happen when Tigers were dramatically nerfed just after the old TH doc with KT, Tigers and Panthers got reworked. I think this started precisely with 4.70 like one year and a couple of months ago. Until then, in no way e8 or 76 could one or two-shot tigers, especially at long range.

[Miesepeter123]

yeah luck has a huge influence on the game^^ that's just a fact. So sometimes you have your at team behin a tiger and all 3 zooks hit the drit on short range and sometimes you have them in front of tiger and all zooks hit penetrate and do damage. That "Luck-feature" could be super annoying^^. I saw so many ragequits because of that

[Warhawks97]

Sure luck exists and sure Tigers got amor buff. But what happened just before 4.70?
I play this mod since early 2010 and these kind of things just started to happen when Tigers were dramatically nerfed just after the old TH doc with KT, Tigers and Panthers got reworked. I think this started precisely with 4.70 like one year and a couple of months ago. Until then, in no way e8 or 76 could one or two-shot tigers, especially at long range.

pls what? can you show me the facts where they got nerfed? I am playing that mod since 3.. something shortly before 4.0 and 4.02b came out. Nothing thas changed to them except that tiger got buffed and cheaper recently. Just in very old versions the 76 shermans had been a bit more expensive (e8 after mass production 415 mp and more fuel as they cost now and 76 was also more expensive and thus saw never use (esspecially the e8 got never really used in old versions). Only that has changed, the fact that people do build the one or the other e8 (still its a rare unit).


About luck: thats more important in 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2. A pak kills or kills not a tank and thats often very important as the maps are small and no other teammates that can help out or balance it out in another fight. Thats also why i prefer the 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 but sometimes even there it can have a huge impact on games ending sometimes. For me sometimes when a high veted Jackson Tank destroyer is destroyed by a single hit when i play as US and as axis BK doc when my leader squad vet 4 or 5 is killed by a single lucky arty strike. I tend to share my risk over the units and thats why i seldomly build single expensive tanks.

[Kasbah]

No I can't show facts other than my experience with my mates playing the same game since early 2010 and the comments that started on the forum. Tiger was very strong, and especially PE and BK Tiger Ace could endure almost anything and change the game. And suddenly, I don't remember in which version, I think it was after the old TH lost the King Tiger and the Tiger (4.70?), it started to be one shooted or two-shooted by 76's in long ranges. Then, I think after Xali quit, I saw more and more comments about it and in 4.80 or 4.81 I don't remember and thanks to Wolf it had a small buff and a small price decrease.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

That random was bad idea in my opinion. If it will be one single shot in entire game, ok, but for me it is like lucky game and unlucky game. One game is jumbo unpenetrable for every PaK40 or panzerschreck shot and in other game I loose it by 2 single shots of schrecks. The same is true for all other units/vehicles. One game good another bad. In one game can CCS kill some Stormtroopers on long range in another is killed by mortar crew when run out of building. When this things starts I just leave match and ask for rematch.... it's unplayable. So I am on Tiger's side.

[Warhawks97]

No I can't show facts other than my experience with my mates playing the same game since early 2010 and the comments that started on the forum. Tiger was very strong, and especially PE and BK Tiger Ace could endure almost anything and change the game. And suddenly, I don't remember in which version, I think it was after the old TH lost the King Tiger and the Tiger (4.70?), it started to be one shooted or two-shooted by 76's in long ranges. Then, I think after Xali quit, I saw more and more comments about it and in 4.80 or 4.81 I don't remember and thanks to Wolf it had a small buff and a small price decrease.

As i said, nothing has changed on tiger. At least officially only buffed.


In TH doc it was a different mater. I and my mates always used the Tiger to get a quick decision but the reason why it was so much better there is/was that it just need 3 CP. My mate often got that Tiger after 13 mins! Long before any number of e8 were build.

I am asking since a long time to get 1 or two docs that are either based on tiger and KT or able to get one very soon at times were US get normal shermans and Tankbusters.

Tiger is, was never and shouldnt be a late game Tank! KT, JP and Panther are but not the tiger. In old PE doc exactly that was the case. In BK nobody goes for tiger when Tank IV is cheap and stormtoopers on hand usually. In Terror all go/went for kch so Tigers comes/came too late.

This is the only reason why people think it suddenly sucks: it comes later as it did in old PE doc (were it also got Zimmerit and vet 1) and the fact that 76 shermans are build since 4.5 or so when they got cheaper. This and exactly This should be considered. The Tiger in old PE doc won many games for me and my mates and came as fast as i get Tank IV´s with BK doc and when allied got their first 17 pounder emplacment and M10´s. That was balanced. Now player build them in late game and expect wonder. Hitting the field when 76 shermans and 17 pounders are all arround the Tiger. Only with good handling the Tiger is still fearfull and so does Tiger1996 and so did the last German Tiger crews in ww2.

I´ve been asking for a PE doc rework so Tiger would come earlier again and i also asked to rework Terror doc to be a bit more based on Tiger and KT (Tiger 3 CP, then Tank IV and finally KT and able to get heavy tank factory and final HQ upgrade without need of normal tank factory). That would help the Tiger more as to make it a cheap spam tank with super stats just because player want it as superior late game tank of which 76 guns with HVAP on mid range have almost 0 chance to kill it. (otherwise this topic would not exist)


Also this "luck" is in every war. In fact you just prepare for the fight as good as possible to increase your chance but it never means to win for sure.
Even the old military and educated people knew: "For a good General luck is important". or something like that.


and what ive seen in that game rushing with an unskilled tiger too close to a 76 sherman with vet crew and HVAP ammo is definately the worst you can do and in that case you looked more or less like a "newbie"+ having simply some bad luck as well. And even if the e8 would have been destroyed the second one would have killed the tiger soon anyway or simply 2 new e8 would have been build as they had map controle apparently.

[Tony_Frost]

No I can't show facts other than my experience with my mates playing the same game since early 2010 and the comments that started on the forum. Tiger was very strong, and especially PE and BK Tiger Ace could endure almost anything and change the game.

Yes, but its not about tiger nerf, its about buff of sherman 76 and E8 guns. In 4.70 open beta they purchased more armor piercing capability, in comparison with BK 4.6.

[Kasbah]

Thanks Tony, this is exactly what I was about to answer to Warhawks. 76 and E8 got heavily buffed in that version. You only have to read the comments from that time (2013 and the whole year, even this year)

[Warhawks97]

Thanks Tony, this is exactly what I was about to answer to Warhawks. 76 and E8 got heavily buffed in that version. You only have to read the comments from that time (2013 and the whole year, even this year)

E8 and 76 mm: what?

76 Gun vs Tank IV: 90% pen chance on point blank and 43% at max range. Tank IV vs 76 sherman: 130% pen chance on point blank and 95% on max range. Means 76 has less pen chance against vs tank IV on point blank as Tank IV with 75mm L/48 against sherman on max range -.-..... nice buff for e8. All i saw was a cost drop of Tank IV from 100 down to 75 fuel. The 76 gun has still a poor distant multiplier and TT´s got not changed. In fact the Gun is a bit too poor against axis mediums and maybe a way to strong against KT,JT and Elephant.

Against Tiger it is 43% at point blank and arround 25% at max range. There was no buff in any patch, only got cheaper.

Whats your damn problem? Note also that a sherman needs to pen a Tiger up to 3 times if 5% chance comes not into effect.

HVAP increases chance but cost for each tank (upgrade and activation) 100 ammo. Often sherman activates the HVAP but get main gun destroyed or other crit right after first Tiger hit.

Without HVAP you should have 3 easy eights against one Tiger and if this tiger keeps driving backwards shermans wil most likely rush into a pak or schreck.

And if those 3 shermans fail to kill that Tiger then the US just wasted 3 Tanks while enemie got a damaged but veted tiger and pak/schreck squad but no losses in ressources.



You shoud consider all that before shouting out such bullshit. Also a 76 sherman gun could pen a Tiger at point blan quite easily (100 meter) but in game there is just a 43% chance and on long range 25% which can be considered as hitting weak spotts or parts of already hit a damaged armor.



And as i said: In that replay driving with a Tiger so close against a veted e8 with tank commander and HVAP is just a very silly move, not more.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

From where do u have this stats about percentage chance of penetration ?

[Kasbah]

A little more humility wouldn't hurt.

If you know precisely and so perfectly all the numbers and stats of everything and you participate so passionately that you almost write a whole essay in every answer or suggestion you give, you only have to re-read all the subjects regarding this issue written at that time in the old forum by many people and all the debate that ensued for a whole year.

[Warhawks97]

A little more humility wouldn't hurt.

If you know precisely and so perfectly all the numbers and stats of everything and you participate so passionately that you almost write a whole essay in every answer or suggestion you give, you only have to re-read all the subjects regarding this issue written at that time in the old forum by many people and all the debate that ensued for a whole year.

Those were "personal feeling" and those raised simply because 76 shermans and e8 in particular got cheaper and thus used. My current feeling about tiger is that i am using it right now. Usually i prefered Panther but on vet Tiger is simply better with its abilties.


Corsix tells those stats. The game. Got also written down in forum a few times. by me and others even. There is also some other stange stuff.


Also just yesterday i did use Tigers (2 in total) and i faced 3 sandbaged 76 shermans, one jumbo and 2 at squads. I killed all of them with my first tiger (i even drove stupdily in the final 76 sherman).

During that time the two bazooka squads fired at least 12-16 bazookas dealing almost no damage btw. When my Tiger got vet 1 (with commander) the Tiger did oneshot every Tank with sandbags and even the jumbo. On vet 2 i could simply use Tigerphobia and i could simply maneuver into the best possible attack direction and killing the next sherman and two 76 sanbaged shermans coming from another player (i think he dropped and so bot spammed all those 76´s with sandbags).

So on vet 1 Tiger is powerfull having flanking ability which makes it very fast (faster then enemies) and Bk tiger has suppression. On vet 2 and Tigerphobia and long range shot this tank becomes epic and killing bunches of shermans and jumbos.


Not to mention which great support this doc offers (AA tank) stormtoopers, stuhs. I also had a ostwind which killed all enemie inf and which got vet 4 finally with dozens of inf kills. Armor doc (which only has the e8) has nothing that comes close to that.


Note also that two 76 shermans from other docs cost already more MP as a single Tiger and just 35 fuel less to build but therefore 8 in fuel upkeep while Tiger has 5. Even after the supply yard upgrades (for which BK doc player gets a new Panther) two 76 shermans would cost 6 in fuel upkeep.


The fact that i rarerly used tigers was that the Tank IV´s already overperformed against US 76 guns. I regualry overrun US 76 mm paks with Tank IV which get not even damaged sometimes. So why using Tiger when Tank IV is almost as good (76 gun arround 25% vs Tiger on max and 43% against Tank IV H. VS J after skirt upgrade maybe even less).


Because its so funny to tell you how OP 76 gun is i just wanna let you know that the 76 gun has just 53% pen chance against stubby tank IV with just 30-50 mm armor. In fact the 75 mm sherman with L/40 gun could pen this stubby Tank IV´s at about 800 meters already.



about the "many topcis". Ive found not a single after Tiger got armor/HP buff and cost reduction. At least nothing specifically.


also Danjel: wasnt it you when who wanted jumbo with armor buff when two schrecks almost killed it instantly leaving it with 1 HP? You know the game at reversed defense.

[Wake]

Tiger is like the Jumbo: it's all about luck.

Just like I've seen a Jumbo die from 2 panzershrecks to the front, I've also seen a Jumbo bounce 6 panzershrecks at once then kill a tiger ace without taking any damage.

A Tiger can destroy every enemy tank in 1 shot while bouncing all enemy shells and then moments later miss 3 of its shots in a row and get 1-shotted by a simple Sherman 76(W).

It's all about luck.

[Yummy]

First of all, there is no Marder II in game, Oliver. There is Marder I which is pretty good, and Marder III which lacks MG and it has horrible accuracy (Wolf check this unit, please).
And that E8 is a good example for Warhawks who always cry how weak USA armour is, where I disagree. 1 tiger cost a little less than 3 E8, and a tiger doesn't stand a chance against 3 E8. Furthermore USA has early/no fuel dependent Jumbo sherman, which wins games. This 5% chance is fine but Germans feel more pain from it than allies.