"Pocket artillery" or infantry grenades and explosions

[XAHTEP39]

Hi, mates!
In other topic, the question of arty-shells cost was raised - http://forum.bkmod.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1004 and R-Dev asks, that arty-shell costs will be "the status quo". Okey.
Also R-Devs want to rebalanced (incl cost) other inf-orient instrument - mines http://forum.bkmod.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=873

Therefore I raise issue of costs of inf-grenades and inf-explosions (beside mines) in compare with arty-shells, but considering the efficency of each other grenade.
Grenades have some values: 1) throw distance; 2) power 3) damage radius 4) maybe accuracy?
Based on this, i suggest to reduce cost of infantry explosions by 1.5-2 times in more rational proportion with arty-shells, for example:

10 ammo for US-CW grenade Mk.II / WH Volksgrenadiers Eihandgranate M39 / WH Volksgrenadiers Brandflasche ("Molotov coctail"),
15 ammo for Axis Stielhandgranate 24,
15 ammo for PE AT-grenade PWM-1 / WH magnet hand AT-mine HHL-3 / US-CW AT-stick bomb,
20 ammo for flame-grenades,
20 ammo for WH Def-doc Stielhandgranate 24 with additional frag-shirt (throwing only cover!),
20 ammo for US grenade Mk.III,
25 ammo for Axis bundle-grenade,
30 ammo for PE SE-doc sturmpioneers flame-bundle-grenade,
30 or 35 for Axis Panzerfaust shot / Allies M9 Bazooka shot (ability of some units),
35 ammo for Allies/Axis geballte ladung (Demolitions of pionees & engineers & sappers & sturmpioneers & saboteurs ...),
40 ammo for CW multi-purpose grenade No.82 "Gammon Bomb"
40 ammo for PE SE-doc sturmpioneers flame-geballte ladung (flame Demolitions),
45 ammo for thunderflash - throwing extra-power explose-chatrge (used by AB and SE-saboteors)
45 ammo for ability "to cast aside by several grenades" of some Axis/Allies elite units,
... and maybe I forgot some types of Britain grenades.

[kwok]

True, grenades are not in proportion to arty in size-cost. But what is gained is precision, availability, and timing. I'm not a fan of this mainly because I'd rather see infantry positioning trumping grenade micro. Cheapening grenades basically would make positioning more forgiving because a grenade can turn a fight so quickly even when strategically outmatched. Just a preference though. Probably bias because my micro is subpar compared to a lot of players.

[Wake]

I would actually keep it the way it is in game currently. Many players now just spam grenades, to the point where its not even used as an anti-cover weapon. They just throw them as soon as they get in range in every situation, even if the enemy is in a clear field with no cover. This is especially apparent against flame grenade units. Airborne, SE infantry, and terror are always throwing flame grenades.

The only things I would like to change are:

- Add more smoke grenades to units (especially axis)
- Make smoke free to use
- Reduce US sticky bomb price
- Flame grenades are actually cheaper to use than normal grenades. They shouldn't be

[JimQwilleran]

I also think that things should stay how they are now, mr. Kwok already stated the reasons which I agree with.

[kwok]

I'd love to have more smoke options. I was actually trying to find the right time to ask if commanders/lieutenants can get a smoke drop ability similar to the bk stug iii.

Flame grenades are tricky... They are insanely strong and aggravating. I don't know if I'd consider them balance breaking imo, but I can definitely see how most players may think it is so i would be curious to see a discussion on that.

[XAHTEP39]

Perhaps, lights grenades (Stielhandgranate 24, Mk.II, Eihandgranate M39) schould be less effective against emplacements and infantry into house (it is not fair, that often one simple grenade kills >50% of squad in BIG and EVEN two-storied house). Effeciency against infantry into trenches keeps the same.
And if grenades so deadly and spamly (and I suggest to reduce their cost in compare with arty-barrage), maybe reduce the accuracy of all throwing grenades, which will be ups with veterans statuses?

[kwok]

If grenades are less effective against buildings, then something like flames and he shot would need to be improved so that there is an actual countermeasure to houses. If they get buffed then there would be other balancing problems, like if he was improved then inf would get shredded so much faster/need to buff inf in someway, which would lead to another balance issue, etc. So a small change in a seemingly non important factor has huge ripple effects. Because this isn't just a stat change but a mechanic change.
So you see, because grenades are so deadly and spammy its high cost is appropriate and with reason.

Haha try men of war, where "realism" and and a different resource system completely changed the way it is played. It's really quite a different game, extremely realistic as many players here THINK they want. But once they try mow they realize there is something about bk they like better.

[JimQwilleran]

If grenades are less effective against buildings, then something like flames and he shot would need to be improved so that there is an actual countermeasure to houses. If they get buffed then there would be other balancing problems, like if he was improved then inf would get shredded so much faster/need to buff inf in someway, which would lead to another balance issue, etc. So a small change in a seemingly non important factor has huge ripple effects. Because this isn't just a stat change but a mechanic change.
So you see, because grenades are so deadly and spammy its high cost is appropriate and with reason.

+1. Yea, kwok rules. I come to the thread, read people's posts, prepare my answer and then see kwok saying exactly the same what I wanted to write here .

Haha try men of war, where "realism" and and a different resource system completely changed the way it is played. It's really quite a different game, extremely realistic as many players here THINK they want. But once they try mow they realize there is something about bk they like better.

I keep repeating that every time people talk about MoW. This game is great, but there is something different about bk...

[SchlagtSieTot]

Perhaps, lights grenades (Stielhandgranate 24, Mk.II, Eihandgranate M39) schould be less effective against emplacements and infantry into house (it is not fair, that often one simple grenade kills >50% of squad in BIG and EVEN two-storied house). Effeciency against infantry into trenches keeps the same.
And if grenades so deadly and spamly (and I suggest to reduce their cost in compare with arty-barrage), maybe reduce the accuracy of all throwing grenades, which will be ups with veterans statuses?

German M24 grenades are actually a concussion/assault grenade. It kills or incapacitate targets by its powerful blast, making it a superb weapon for clearing trenches and buildings, but on the other hand, making it less useful in open terrain. The shock wave produced by this grenade is much larger then the pineapples, it can stun og incapacitate enemy troops standing hiding in cover, leaning against the wall on the outside or standing in another adjacent room. M24 grenades could also be used to blow up obstacles, like barbed wire or fortifications.
The M24 could be thrown further then pineapples and egg grenades, but on the other hand, they were large and obvious, giving the enemy time to avoid the blast.

American pineapple are a fragmentation grenade. It packs a small charge and scatter fragments across a large area. It's a defensive grenade designed to use from cover. At that time, they where rather unpredictable, a soldier standing right in front of the grenade could escape without a scratch, while another soldier many meters away could suffer fatal injury. Fragmentation grenades are not as useful for clearing houses and trenches, but can be used in the open against infantry. Fragments from this type of grenade tends to get projected upwards - therfore, an enemy could find relative safety in hugging the ground. Soldiers could carry many of these grenades and they could be rolled through doorways, down stairs or alleyways and, opposed to M24, it os a smaller and less visible object, making them less obvious when thrown at the enemy.

[JimQwilleran]

German M24 grenades are actually a concussion/assault grenade. It kills or incapacitate targets by its powerful blast, making it a superb weapon for clearing trenches and buildings, but on the other hand, making it less useful in open terrain. The shock wave produced by this grenade is much larger then the pineapples, it can stun og incapacitate enemy troops standing hiding in cover, leaning against the wall on the outside or standing in another adjacent room. M24 grenades could also be used to blow up obstacles, like barbed wire or fortifications.
The M24 could be thrown further then pineapples and egg grenades, but on the other hand, they were large and obvious, giving the enemy time to avoid the blast.

American pineapple are a fragmentation grenade. It packs a small charge and scatter fragments across a large area. It's a defensive grenade designed to use from cover. At that time, they where rather unpredictable, a soldier standing right in front of the grenade could escape without a scratch, while another soldier many meters away could suffer fatal injury. Fragmentation grenades are not as useful for clearing houses and trenches, but can be used in the open against infantry. Fragments from this type of grenade tends to get projected upwards - therfore, an enemy could find relative safety in hugging the ground. Soldiers could carry many of these grenades and they could be rolled through doorways, down stairs or alleyways and, opposed to M24, it os a smaller and less visible object, making them less obvious when thrown at the enemy.

Very nice info . And how does this correspond with throwing range? Why in Bk the axis M24 grenades can be thrown almost 2x further than allie pineapples?

[SchlagtSieTot]

M24 could be thrown much further due to weight (nearly 600 gram) and handle. The handle did also prevent that the grenade rolled away from the target, but the general form of the M24 also made it unable to be rolled along surfaces, whereas you could easily roll a pineapple, as mentioned above.

The size and weight of the M24 made it a bulky burden to carry and often at the expense of extra ammunition.

[JimQwilleran]

Well, I guess that now axis op grenade range makes more sense xD.

From what I can see, the blast area of both M24 and pineapple grenades is about the same. Would it be good if axis grenade had smaller but stronger explosion, and allie one had bigger radius but smaller damage? (speaking about open field encounter now, more than 70% of all grenades thrown in the game are in the open battle imo)

[SchlagtSieTot]

The stick design was made (nearly) obsolete as projected grenades was more widely spread, rifle grenades, launchers of different types etc. These weapons took on the role for providing explosive power at range you could not throw.
Concussion grenades are still very much in use present day, not to be confused with a stun grenade.


I suppose it's hard to translate real life specs, pros and cons, to BK. The correct thing would be to make frags more lethal in the open and decent at clearing buildings. Frags should be utilized from a covered position and if not, at the risk of hitting own troops. Sticks should be near useless in the open, unless the enemy soldiers are almost standing on top of it, but make them exceptional at clearing bunkers, trenches, buildings and light obstacles and minefields.

[SchlagtSieTot]

Your suggestion may be the closest thing to this, but maybe it would unbalance the whole infantry game.

[JimQwilleran]

Yea, I guess that there are also some engine restrictions. Idk if you can make the same grenade working differently in cover, open field, vs buildings etc.
Another interesting thing I found is that axis m24 grenade was considered less accurate, especially on maximum range, than the pineapple type of grenade. Is there in Bk any system of missing throws ? Right now almost every grenade you order to throw lands more or less exactly in desired place.

[SchlagtSieTot]

If you compare both grenades thrown by the same guy, at the same distance, the precision of the M24 would be better (maybe not for a person trained exclusively for egg shaped grenades). Yes, the precision will be a lot worse at long distance, but you can't throw a pineapple at that range. It might not be accurate at great distance, but at least it's getting there.

[Wake]

From what I can see, the blast area of both M24 and pineapple grenades is about the same. Would it be good if axis grenade had smaller but stronger explosion, and allie one had bigger radius but smaller damage? (speaking about open field encounter now, more than 70% of all grenades thrown in the game are in the open battle imo)

That's similar to what it is already. Warhawks looked in the files and the Axis grenade has longer throw range but smaller blast radius and less damage. The American and British pineapple grenade has a shorter throw range but has a larger blast radius and does more damage. The allied grenade is also cheaper, just because of U.S mass production.

I'd also like to point out that the American Airborne flame grenade actually has a longer throw range than their normal Mk2 pineapple grenade. After the airborne get vet 1, their throw range for both grenades gets nearly doubled, and is equivalent to the throw range of the axis stick grenade.

[JimQwilleran]

That's similar to what it is already. Warhawks looked in the files and the Axis grenade has longer throw range but smaller blast radius and less damage. The American and British pineapple grenade has a shorter throw range but has a larger blast radius and does more damage. The allied grenade is also cheaper, just because of U.S mass production.

I'd also like to point out that the American Airborne flame grenade actually has a longer throw range than their normal Mk2 pineapple grenade. After the airborne get vet 1, their throw range for both grenades gets nearly doubled, and is equivalent to the throw range of the axis stick grenade.

Oh, that's nice I guess. It seems like knowing corsix is a prerequisite here .