Bk panthers

[MEFISTO]

The Panthers need an HP buff, panthers can't stand one 90mm shoot; no critic, one shoot tank destroyed.
I am so disappointed with the panthers' change OMG. I remember When changes started some guys here said "Panthers are better than Tigers BK doctrine will be ok".
Then panthers nerf came and now can't even stand one 90mm shoot. The excuse is "panthers are cheap" NO THEY ARE NOT. I infantry Jackson cost 700mp and 110 fuel while the cheapest panther cost 650 and 90 fuel while the other variants cost 120 and 750mp so they are not cheap. Jackson ONE SHOOT PANTHERS.
I prefer to pay a bit extra for a panther, like before the changes, and have a better tank, anyway now all ally's doctrines have the tools to take down any heavy tank.
I can remember the last time I had fun playing Wherma.

[Redgaarden]

Dont 17P, 88mm tiger, panther and 90mm all share same dmg numbers?

I really dont see the problem since panthers are still pretty good tanks. And I'm generally happier that panthers are killable now. Got kinda tiring dealing with panthers day in and day out.
I believe that they should stay in the same powerlevel that they are on now.

Just treat the panther as either a cheaper jackson with extra armor. or a more expensive jackson with an mg and more armor.

[MEFISTO]

Dont 17P, 88mm tiger, panther and 90mm all share same dmg numbers?

I really dont see the problem since panthers are still pretty good tanks. And I'm generally happier that panthers are killable now. Got kinda tiring dealing with panthers day in and day out.
I believe that they should stay in the same powerlevel that they are on now.

Just treat the panther as either a cheaper jackson with extra armor. or a more expensive jackson with an mg and more armor.

The problem here is, Jackson one-shoots panthers, and panthers don't one-shoot Jackson, what make an expencive unit being one shoot and some of this panthers are even expensier than Infantry Jackson. Why panthers can't one shoot Jackson? It would be plyer skills to win a faight.
I don't think it fair to pay 120fuel or 1200mp to be one shoot.
I am not asking for Panthers to be inmortal. Either at least stand one shoot or make it the same, both tanks one shoot eachother.

[tarakancheg]

The problem here is, Jackson one-shoots panthers, and panthers don't one-shoot Jackson, what make an expencive unit being one shoot and some of this panthers are even expensier than Infantry Jackson. I don't think it fair to pay 120fuel or 1200mp to be one shoot.
I am not asking for Panthers to be inmortal. Either at least stand one shoot or make it the same, both tanks one shoot eachother.

Jacks don't 1 (reliably) shot panthers out of camo.
Jacks dont 1 shot panthers with AP.
Jacks costs almost the same but lacks any AI capabilities, which he makes up with he's AT capabilities (tank hunter and such).
Panthers can 1 shot jacks if they roll no critical.

Why panthers can't one shoot Jackson? It would be plyer skills to win a faight.

Because panthers have same range as out of camo jacks, longer aim time and you should't drive a unit into it's counter?

[MEFISTO]

The problem here is, Jackson one-shoots panthers, and panthers don't one-shoot Jackson, what make an expencive unit being one shoot and some of this panthers are even expensier than Infantry Jackson. I don't think it fair to pay 120fuel or 1200mp to be one shoot.
I am not asking for Panthers to be inmortal. Either at least stand one shoot or make it the same, both tanks one shoot eachother.

Jacks don't 1 (reliably) shot panthers out of camo.
Jacks dont 1 shot panthers with AP.
Jacks costs almost the same but lacks any AI capabilities, which he makes up with he's AT capabilities (tank hunter and such).
Panthers can 1 shot jacks if they roll no critical.

Why panthers can't one shoot Jackson? It would be plyer skills to win a faight.

Because panthers have same range as out of camo jacks, longer aim time and you should't drive a unit into it's counter?

This is not true, Jackson yes they one shoot panthers (Infantry Jackson) I believe camouflage Jackson and Infantry one share the same canon stats.
I would say 95% of the time I face a Jackson it one shoot the panther. And, no again, panthers don’t one shoot Infantry Jackson at all.

[Redgaarden]

Hard to balance without concrete numbers. But I have a hard time imagining panthers being weak atm.

[MEFISTO]

Hard to balance without concrete numbers. But I have a hard time imagining panthers being weak atm.

I am not saying panthers are useless or too bad, it is just the too low HP that most of the time 90mm one shoot them. I am not asking for Tigers Hp or panthers old HP, just a bit more to at least stand one 90mm shoot.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

If anything, I would say that Infantry doc Jackson is overpriced as hell xD It is a glass cannon that is super easy to counter, its "ability" for a stationary mode makes no sense given how fragile it is, bad unit design IMO, would be great to see it reworked.

As for the Panther, I think that it is in a decent spot in terms of performance per price. Basically, it can take on everything frontally besides 90mm and it is absolutely ok to have at least one type of cannon that is a hard counter.

The problem of Mefisto is not the Panther itself I think, but the overall weakness of BK doc in the late game stage. It is indeed VERY complicated to remain competitive once RE\Armor starts spitting out MK7, Comets and Pershings like there is no tomorrow. I haven't played in a while but in all my 1v1s as the Armor doc I knew that the victory is secured once I get a Pershing Ace covered by HE Sherman. These 2 units counter the entire doc hilariously hard, as neither Panthers, nor the stormtroopers can advance.

TBH it would be great to see a small shuffle of the axis top-tier armor. The easiest solution from my point of view is to swap Tiger Ace with Panther Ace in Prop and BK docs. Imo they are pretty weak in mid (prop) and late game (bk), this change will even things out a bit.

[MEFISTO]

If anything, I would say that Infantry doc Jackson is overpriced as hell xD It is a glass cannon that is super easy to counter, its "ability" for a stationary mode makes no sense given how fragile it is, bad unit design IMO, would be great to see it reworked.

As for the Panther, I think that it is in a decent spot in terms of performance per price. Basically, it can take on everything frontally besides 90mm and it absolutely ok to have at least one type of cannon that is a hard counter.

The problem of Mefisto is not the Panther itself I think, but the overall weakness of BK doc in the late game stage. It is indeed VERY complicated to remain competitive once RE\Armor starts spitting out MK7, Comets and Pershings like there is no tomorrow. I haven't played in a while but in all my 1v1s as the Armor doc I knew that the victory is secured once I get a Pershing Ace covered by HE Sherman. These 2 units counter the entire doc hilariously hard, as neither Panthers, nor the stormtroopers can advance.

TBH it would be great to see a small shuffle of the axis top-tier armor. The easiest solution from my point of view is to swap Tiger Ace with Panther Ace in Prop and BK docs. Imo they are pretty weak in mid (prop) and late game (bk), this change will even things out a bit.

That would be interesting, I remember BK always had Tiger ace, even in the base game Tales of Valor.
+1

[tarakancheg]

The problem of Mefisto is not the Panther itself I think, but the overall weakness of BK doc in the late game stage. It is indeed VERY complicated to remain competitive once RE\Armor starts spitting out MK7, Comets and Pershings like there is no tomorrow.

Isn't it the entire point of these 2 docs? Very strong early game, solid midgame, but lacking lategame options against lategame docs.
While Armor doc has weak early game, but it starts to snowball the longer you have supply yard and use your cheap shermans CP unlock?

[MEFISTO]

The problem of Mefisto is not the Panther itself I think, but the overall weakness of BK doc in the late game stage. It is indeed VERY complicated to remain competitive once RE\Armor starts spitting out MK7, Comets and Pershings like there is no tomorrow.

Isn't it the entire point of these 2 docs? Very strong early game, solid midgame, but lacking lategame options against lategame docs.
While Armor doc has weak early game, but it starts to snowball the longer you have supply yard and use your cheap shermans CP unlock?

When you referred to early game, are you talking about Engineer spam? Infiltration storm? I guess. Armor have good tools too. Like assault engineers and Caliope jeep and for 2cp cheaper Sherman.
The particular case I am pointing is Panther is too weak against 90mm which isn’t only in armor doctrine but also in infantry doctrine for just 5CP, which I don’t mind, it is great infantry can have this tool to defend themselves vs heavy tanks, It is just a expensive 120fuel panther can’t stand one shoot most of the time.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Is Jackson overpriced as hell or "just 5CP" easy to get unlock unit?

Considering that Panther still has better movement (I'd say best among all armor units in the game), somehow, it is able to get extra Exp extremely fast, I wouldnt say it's that easy to lose to pure 1shot every time.

I"d dare to say that among all vehicles, vetted Panther is the most surviving and 5HP runaway thing I know. But that is just my impression.


Imo, INF doc is overall strong against vehicles and Jackson aint the biggest threat

And yes, BK doc has its own eary game pros. Maultier is way above any arty in the game that comes early to mid game. Same with Stug and Pz4 that can handle battlefield..and that on top with the most powerfull base inf in the game that is handy drop off any free building

[idliketoplaybetter]

And just to be really honest, imo, most of the tanks are now being 1shotted more often than usual..with only shift to Shermans being more a thing this days.
All anti tank actions in the game are now indeed harder to imply, but more rewarding if performed. AT guns set up time and so on were changed for reason. That isnt just panther's fear.

Small jagd's are still tricky, even against Pershing. Should we give it more health too? dunno

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

The problem of Mefisto is not the Panther itself I think, but the overall weakness of BK doc in the late game stage. It is indeed VERY complicated to remain competitive once RE\Armor starts spitting out MK7, Comets and Pershings like there is no tomorrow.

Isn't it the entire point of these 2 docs? Very strong early game, solid midgame, but lacking lategame options against lategame docs.
While Armor doc has weak early game, but it starts to snowball the longer you have supply yard and use your cheap shermans CP unlock?

It kinda is, but I don't think swapping those units will break the concept anyhow. BK will just hold a bit better against Pershings while Prop will be slightly more versatile with this Panther Ace, as all their current vehicles are clumsy dinosaurs.

[Volksgrenadiers]

Yeah i remember game recently with camo inf Jackson when 1 tiger and 1 panter came first i oneshoted tiger panter hit me for like 90% hp down and then i oneshoted panter.
Or similliar stuff when INF Jumbo killed 3 of my Panters be oneshot and i couldnt even pene him with or without AP...

[tarakancheg]

Or similliar stuff when INF Jumbo killed 3 of my Panters be oneshot and i couldnt even pene him with or without AP...

jumbo HEAT are busted.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Just coming back to this question..

Personally I would give BK doc Experienced Jagdpanther call instead or optional. I mean, it is more less powerfull and interesting unit that since the Doctrinal change of PE TS doc we dont see as much (at least to my ingame experience it's like 1 game of 5 that someone ever do them).

Technically it is much stronger than Panther against anything Armor or RE docs can compose for the late game, but has its flaws and more expensive also.

[Redgaarden]

We could just reduce Pershing dmg vs panther by 10% and keep jackson as is.

[Warhawks97]

Love those debates about tanks. Havent been active for a long time since i just couldnt get any fun out of this game anymore.
However, it doesnt mean i am not making minds about it.

There are a few things i do wonder:

1. Why is tank fight in BK always a "all or nothing afair" as long as guns are involved?
2. Why do most weapons have a damage increase of like 50-100% when compared to vcoh, excpt for "guns vs tanks" that have a 500% damage increase?
3. Why bouncing shots dont deal any damage at all.
4. Why is gun fire damage modified by just 3 or 3.5 vs vehicles but x5 vs Tanks?


This debate "tank gets oneshots" vs "Tank never dies" is as old as BK. In a replay posted Tiger or Tara i saw i think a tiger bouncing countless close range 76 mm shots from 3 shermans. Then again i see a 76 just casually penetrating a Panther, forcing it to instantly retreat.

I find Handheld AT vs Tanks a lot more balanced than gun vs tanks. Handheld AT damage is increased by 3.5 vs tanks.
Also its often odd to see that Greyhounds and Pumas seem to survive medium AT hits better than stuart tanks despite having less HP simply because they take less damage.


So, just as an idea:

1. Increase overall pen chances of guns vs tanks (or at least most).
2. Decrease the damage modifier of guns vs vehicles down to x3.5. That way gun damage would be more in line with Handheld AT and gun vs vehicles.
3. Maybe increase tank gun ranges and engagment distances by a bit and get rid of range increases given from ambush/stationary modes.
3. Bouncing shots would still deal some damage. Like 0.05-0.1% from the weapon damage. That way the pure volume of guns can bring demise to tanks if they decide to stay for too long under a barrage. Armor gets weaker with every shot. Most tanks got taken out by a multitude of hits during ww2 with some pens and some non penetration and then some non-penetration hits that still caused cracks and and shrappnels in the interior of tanks.


As a calculation example:

75 and 76 mm guns that have usually a max damage of 120 to 130 would deal max 420-455 damage instead of 600-650.
90 mm gun damage would go down to 577,5 from 825.


Tanks, and Panthers in particular suffer a lot, when their cost is driven by armor. That way you have a beast on the field with nearly invincible armor, but that fails you just once in a hundred times it can mess up your entire match.

I would rather trade some armor on tanks and take some damage from small non-pen hits in exchange for not instantly losing a tank by a lucky shot that manages to get through the otherwise invincible armor in one super unlucky moment. I think that would also add a bit of a realistic feeling of tank to tank combat. Pens dont always kill in an instant (but will criple you most likely) while non-pens will cause damage in one way or another.


I think the Panther debate is the best example why the "all-or nothing" approach or "one-shot-kill" mentality BK had chosen is perhaps not the best.


Dont get me wrong, having chances to oneshot should not be removed. Just saying that the damage dealed should not exceed the HP pool of a tank. Most panthers (or tanks) die to oneshot not because of a crit, but because the regular damage of the hit was simply exceeding the Tanks HP pool. And i am not even talking about ambush mode which skyrockets the damage even further well beyond most Tanks HP values.
In fact, the 90 mm has a very high chance to casually oneshot panthers when it penetrates it with basic AP rounds. 190 mm has i think 130-160 damage. So it only needs to role 140 in order to deal 700 damage. Enough to blow up a Panther.
And no, increasing HP should not be done since this affects artillery and infantry weapons as well which seem to be fine apparently (nobody complaining at least)

[smsteger89]

Pretty sad when they take the cornerstone unit, the Tiger, away from Blitz doctrine. This mod has lost its way