Rifle Grenades for Axis inf

[CGarr]

It seems weird to me that US and CW access to rifle grenades, but WH and PE don't, considering how massive of a hard-on the Germans had for these weapons. Rifle grenades are a really fun mechanic that allow players to make more aggressive plays with just basic inf, as they allow you to deploy smoke which can help your squishy basic inf last way longer in fights against even MG's and elite inf. The frag grenades can push units out of cover, giving your advancing inf more time to close the gap as the defenders get back into position. The AT nades would probably help make Jeeps and light vehicles less of a headache for WH players without rendering said vehicles useless (US rifle nades haven't, so it should be safe), as unless you go BK doc, you are heavily reliant on AT guns or being forced to buy a 20mm vehicle to answer jeep spam openings, the latter of which is likely to be lost if an armor doc recoilless jeep is present.

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WH:

Prop - Volksgrenadiers get rifle grenades (including smoke) by default after the MP40 CP unlock, no muni investment needed. Rename said MP40 unlock to "Anti-Infantry Provisions". HEAT rifle grenades are available only to volksgrenadiers that have the panzerfaust upgrade purchased after the faust CP unlock. Rename said faust unlock to "Anti-Vehicle Provisions". Vsturms do not get access to these any sort of rifle grenades.

Def - Volksgrenadiers get rifle grenades (including smoke) by default, no muni investment needed. HEAT rifle grenades are available only to volksgrenadiers that have the panzerfaust upgrade purchased.

Blitz - Give the light AT squad a toggle that allows them to shoot fragmentation grenades instead of HEAT, in place of the single shot currently available. The grenades innacurate as hell and don't seem to do much unless you get really lucky, so having multiple shots would be fair considering this unit falls off pretty quickly after early-mid game. Have said frag toggle be unlocked through a weapon upgrade (available in assault phase), 50 muni initial investment and free to toggle on or off.

PE:

Not sure what units would have UI space or ability slots available for rifle frag/smoke nades. They shouldn't get HEAT nades though, the 28mm car has their mobile light AT needs covered, similar to CW.

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It's nothing urgent, but I think it's worth consideration.

[Consti255]

But why you lock the heat behind a Panzerfaust upgrade?
Its WAAY too much ammo for these units and the Heat is actually just really useful in the early stages of the game.
I would considering that Def doc or Prop gets the Heat right on.

[CGarr]

But why you lock the heat behind a Panzerfaust upgrade?
Its WAAY too much ammo for these units and the Heat is actually just really useful in the early stages of the game.
I would considering that Def doc or Prop gets the Heat right on.

They'd get the grenade launcher for free, the HEAT would just be an option if they want to invest the muni. Personally I'd be open to it being available, but I suggested having it tied to the faust as a concession to those who feel that these standard inf units should have to pay an initial investment to use their AT weapons for whatever reason. It's not a hill I'd die on, but I do know some who probably would bitch if HEAT was available without an initial investment, even though the initial investment for riflemen is so small that it doesn't really have a purpose.

[Walderschmidt]

I wouldn’t mind.

Smoke alone would make it worth its weight in gold.

Wald

[CGarr]

I wouldn’t mind.

Smoke alone would make it worth its weight in gold.

Wald

Agreed, that's the main reason I posted

[Walderschmidt]

I wouldn’t mind.

Smoke alone would make it worth its weight in gold.

Wald

Agreed, that's the main reason I posted

Wald

[Diablo]

I'm against complicating the availability of features.
When different doctrines have varying prerequisites for an ability, it makes things confusing (and probably tougher to balance, too).
Regarding the polar opposite, CGarrs post has a notion of making rifle grenades available from the start without investment. I'd disagree, as i prefer a more pronounced capability/tech progression. In short, not having essentially everything the doctrine has to offer on the field in 10 minutes. Of course I'm exaggerating here, but i just want to urge to keep up a common design philosophy in the communities' suggestions, too. Even if it's not this one (strong feeling of progression).

[CGarr]

I'm against complicating the availability of features.
When different doctrines have varying prerequisites for an ability, it makes things confusing (and probably tougher to balance, too).
Regarding the polar opposite, CGarrs post has a notion of making rifle grenades available from the start without investment. I'd disagree, as i prefer a more pronounced capability/tech progression. In short, not having essentially everything the doctrine has to offer on the field in 10 minutes. Of course I'm exaggerating here, but i just want to urge to keep up a common design philosophy in the communities' suggestions, too. Even if it's not this one (strong feeling of progression).

The difference in tech progression would be so tiny as to be unnoticeable. A 15 muni one-time investment is nothing, but sure...

Rifle smoke (the main reason I suggested the feature) wouldn't be complicated to tech to because there would be not tech requirement. You can already get riflenades from the start as US, the only reason I included the teching ideas for WH was to appease those would be against it if it didnt have a tech req for WH.

[Diablo]

Implementing it in the same way that the US one works seems perfectly alright to me.
Just don't give it for free (small muni and time investment).

[CGarr]

Implementing it in the same way that the US one works seems perfectly alright to me.
Just don't give it for free (small muni and time investment).

Out of curiousity, why the insistence on there being some sort of investment, even if it is tiny? The upgrade costs so little that most players dont even factor it's cost into the decision to get it, they just get the upgrade. There is literally no reason not to, and the time investment is also so short that they generally have it by the time they get to the battlefield anyways. I'm fine with it having a cost, but volks don't really have UI space for another upgrade, so it'd be way easier to just give it to them for free. The investment is like microscopically small, it adds nothing to the game. Hand grenades are an addition on top of the unit's basic functionality, would you argue for them to have an investment cost if they weren't already implemented?

[Diablo]

Cant remember the cost. You said 15 ammo?

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but i recall rifle grenades and the BAR being mutually exclusive. So there was a conscious choice to be made. Also (and now I'm on thin ice here) i thought there was a cost substantial enough to at least feel like a little bit of an investment -- if you weren't sure the squad could survive, you wouldn't slap it on.

But I'm talking out of my behind here.. maybe this isn't how it currently works.

In short: i like making choices on unit capability, we especially if they are mutually exclusive and therefore a bit meaningful.

And no, you don't pay for having grenades. Although i recall Def doc Splittermantel grenades being a per unit upgrade back in time. But to be honest, hand grenades are truly a very basic ability of main line infantry, shooting smoke or HEAT over a far distance really isn't.

[CGarr]

Cant remember the cost. You said 15 ammo?

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but i recall rifle grenades and the BAR being mutually exclusive. So there was a conscious choice to be made. Also (and now I'm on thin ice here) i thought there was a cost substantial enough to at least feel like a little bit of an investment -- if you weren't sure the squad could survive, you wouldn't slap it on.

But I'm talking out of my behind here.. maybe this isn't how it currently works.

In short: i like making choices on unit capability, we especially if they are mutually exclusive and therefore a bit meaningful.

And no, you don't pay for having grenades. Although i recall Def doc Splittermantel grenades being a per unit upgrade back in time. But to be honest, hand grenades are truly a very basic ability of main line infantry, shooting smoke or HEAT over a far distance really isn't.

Had to check, 35 muni initial investment which is still barely anything in the long run. I'd have to check again to see if they are mutually exclusive, but I don't see why they would be, BAR doesn't really allow riflemen to fight anything that they couldn't fight with just garands. Grenade launchers are 100% necessary in the current meta, it is stupid to ever not give them to your rifle, as you will be far more vulnerable to vehicles. It's not like the faust, where they let you get in a cheeky kill when someone isn't paying attention, the HEAT grenades actively screen vehicles because they have massive range. As such, my original suggestion clearly stated that HEAT would not be unlocked by default. Smoke and frag rifle nades are super basic utilities for basic inf that let them assist even when they dont have enough raw firepower to have much impact on the fight. I like making choices too, but rifle grenades are pretty much a non-decision currently on riflemen. I've never seen a good player go without them outside of using rifle to cap points in the late game while other units do the actual fighting, and I personally immediately unlock them every time I build a rifle squad, yet still have muni to spare on nades or whatever else. Rifle nades are even a non-decision in bot games, as bots tend to spam a shit ton of vehicles, so I am failing to see any situation where you would pick something else. Between that and the miniscule cost, I think it's safe to say that having said rifle nades be free on these basic WH/US inf would have literally no drawbacks in terms of requiring counterbalance.

[Diablo]

If something is "100% necessary in the current meta" then there's a problem in my opinion. Not trying to be cheeky here.

[CGarr]

If something is "100% necessary in the current meta" then there's a problem in my opinion. Not trying to be cheeky here.

How did you come to that conclusion, and what is the problem? Riflemen with AT nades are an intended soft counter to early vehicle rushes, you can 'technically' go without them but you're probably going to get stomped by any decent player. WH has the same issue but only BK doc really has an answer to it, and that answer is a unit that is only relevant for like 10 mins before it's pretty much useless. My suggestion aimed to fix that.

[Diablo]

Hm maybe it's just a very subjective issue to me personally, i don't know for sure.
But since the mod strives to depart from the design philosophy of stone-paper-scissors, i expect there to be several "viable" choices. And not an obvious meta.

Btw, do you think Fausts are effective vs vehicle spam?

[CGarr]

Bump