Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

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Moveable Howitzers

Yes
4
40%
No
6
60%
Other
0
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Total votes: 10

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Walderschmidt
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Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 12:42

Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by Walderschmidt »

I think un-emplaced howitzers should have the ability to move from place to place like an AT-gun. I think this would add to the game. I’m tired of having to build more than howitzer because I know when it’s gonna get counter-barraged really quickly in a morbid game of whack-a-mole.

This would affect the American M2 105mm, the German LeFH 105mm, and the British 25pdr.

Usefulness:

1) Being able to move howitzer units would make them more useful by being able to relocate after barrages and avoid counter battery.

It would justify their only slightly less expensive cost compared to emplaced and self-propelled howitzers.

For example: a howitzer that fires only one barrage and gets counter barraged. Technically you’ve now paid 375mp, 20 fuel, and 50 muni for a barrage. That’s expensive cost and time-wise!

2) I could build a howitzer and use it throughout a game rather than having to build 2-3 in case one gets destroyed.

3) My howitzers will always be in range of something because I can move them in and out of range as necessary.

Counterbalance:

1) Movement would be slow so it’s not like the howitzers could run away from a chase

If further counterbalance needed:

2) There could be a cooldown on movement ability. The gun is heavy and it makes sense that a weapon crew could only move it so far or so often before needing rest.

3) You could make them slightly easier to kill or decrew to make emplaced versions useful and different (or drop cost of emplacement versions

4) And if worse comes to worse they can get a pack up/tear down.

Potential Problems:

Micro:

I could see people saying this adds more micro to the game. But my thought is, this same dynamic exists for self-propelled artillery, mortars, and rocket artillery. Surely adding the ability for howitzers wouldn’t really be adding too much?

And if you use micro, you have the potential to make your arty last longer and work for you more. Or you could just leave it in place.

HEAT round spam:

Each howitzer on the field reduces munitions upkeep and it costs 50 munitions per heat round plus a cool down. I think it is unlikely be spammed.

What do you guys think?

Modeling/Animation:

We have no model for this or animation (model would have to be reworked). If there is dev and community approval I think I could get this fixed myself. I’d potentially pay Halftrack to do it. I’m willing to put the money in.

Wald
Last edited by Walderschmidt on 19 Feb 2021, 18:38, edited 2 times in total.
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CGarr
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by CGarr »

I'm not against it, but it doesn't seem vital. If there is a way to make them and AT guns able to garrison trucks/HT's in exchange for being super slow when they're move manually, that'd ben nice, but I don't think either change is high priority. Howitzers are cheap enough that losing them every once in a while shouldn't be a huge issue.

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Walderschmidt
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by Walderschmidt »

CGarr wrote:
19 Feb 2021, 18:33
I'm not against it, but it doesn't seem vital. If there is a way to make them and AT guns able to garrison trucks/HT's in exchange for being super slow when they're move manually, that'd ben nice, but I don't think either change is high priority. Howitzers are cheap enough that losing them every once in a while shouldn't be a huge issue.
There is a way but it’s visually ugly. I might make a separate thread to see if the forum would like that.

Also, I updated the post.

Wald
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MarKr
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by MarKr »

One problem I have with making howitzers moveable this way (no matter if by HTs or by crew just dragging them somewhere) is that it would require re-balancing the howitzers. They currently have cheaper barrages, fire more shots per barrage than SPGs and have the longest range to compensate for their immobility and thus high chances of getting counter-artied. At the same time we try to stick to the "same guns have same stats" rule. So if the unemplaced version becomes mobile, then it has no reason to keep the bonuses that were added because of its immobility, at the same time the emplaced version is still immobile so it should keep them so we would have two identical howitzers behaving differently.
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Walderschmidt
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by Walderschmidt »

MarKr wrote:
19 Feb 2021, 20:30
One problem I have with making howitzers moveable this way (no matter if by HTs or by crew just dragging them somewhere) is that it would require re-balancing the howitzers. They currently have cheaper barrages, fire more shots per barrage than SPGs and have the longest range to compensate for their immobility and thus high chances of getting counter-artied. At the same time we try to stick to the "same guns have same stats" rule. So if the unemplaced version becomes mobile, then it has no reason to keep the bonuses that were added because of its immobility, at the same time the emplaced version is still immobile so it should keep them so we would have two identical howitzers behaving differently.
Would it be possible to make it so that a mobile howitzer could emplace itself and render itself immobile?

That way you could have the extended range only if emplaced.

Wald
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MarKr
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by MarKr »

So it's not just emplaced/unemplaced variant but the unemplaced can turn into emplaced? I guess it could be possible but that sounds like extra steps to get what we already have in the game.
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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

I would be down for that, due to a simple fact that it’s super annoying when the front line shifts and your howitzers become useless as they no longer have enough range. So you have to destroy them and build new ones.🙄

F31.58
Posts: 79
Joined: 25 Sep 2020, 15:31

Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by F31.58 »

Nope, having in mind that they are can be easily destroyed by counter-artillery and those making the campy-arty strategy going beyond its purpose.
I'd be better have a button in each artillery piece to be able to de-crew it

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Warhawks97
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by Warhawks97 »

I have mixed feelings about that.
I am not already not a great fan of having movable 2-3 ton anti tank guns being pushed by like two men.
Such equipment could be moved but not "just like that". In game these things would be slow as fuck and would or should have quite a pack up time before it could move.

medium arty like the US 75 mm Pack howitzer is already so slow that it cant compete in intense arty fights without being destroyed by counter arty even when you start moving them right after shooting a barrage.

So how would it be with these guns? They would be "mobile" but the sacrafices that would go along with it like less shots per barrage, less range than spgs etc might be too great and it might be usefull to keep them as non movable units.

However, on larger maps it might be helpfull to be able to move them.

Turing mobile howitzers into emplcaments and back would at the end also be true for AT guns i would say.





So at the end my idea would rather go into the direction of having Howitzers and also heavy AT guns to be assembled and disassembled by pioneers or vehicles (or both) but then stationary. These are at least my thoughts about that.

TANEBIRD
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by TANEBIRD »

I agree that this should be a thing. As it stands now there are few cases where the first 105mm make it from creation to the end of the game, even when I win sometimes. It's basically doomed. You have to practically hide the fact that you have it as long as possible. Being able to move might mean that instead of just STANDING inside of a humongous fire your units could at least CASUALLY attempt to leave it with the gun in hand.

Red
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Joined: 05 Oct 2020, 12:40

Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by Red »

I would see this discussion in conjunction with the heavy AT guns.

So I would be favorable to the option to load the howitzer onto a truck (possibly with an arty symbol then appearing on top of the truck), going somewhere else with the truck and setting it up again, but I would not be in favor of such heavy guns moving by themselves.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Make un-emplaced Howitzers Moveable

Post by Warhawks97 »

Red wrote:
24 Feb 2021, 09:09
I would see this discussion in conjunction with the heavy AT guns.

So I would be favorable to the option to load the howitzer onto a truck (possibly with an arty symbol then appearing on top of the truck), going somewhere else with the truck and setting it up again, but I would not be in favor of such heavy guns moving by themselves.


I share this opinion. So far all coh games and mods ive played did not have any kind of such heavy units being just like that movable.
Thus i would also link this debate with heavy AT guns and the question how mobility should be achieved and if.

But before that i would like to bring up a point about howitzers. In vanilla company of heroes these units had a range of 250. It got reduced in BK down to 225 which made them a rather easy target for all sorts of arty. If the frontline moves just a bit into your direction, light and rocket arty can smash it and retreat. Thus these units never survive a game when a frontline shifts towards your direction by just a tiny bit. On the other hand, if the you place it on a saver spot it quickly gets out of range to be usefull.

So two things i would do:

1. Increase their range to 275 or even 300. So they can provide long range arty support where light arty and rocket arty cant reach them as easily.
As for SPG variants (Priest, Wespe, Hummel but excluding Grille) i would increase the range back to at least 200 or even 225 standard range. Their range nerf wasnt good. They used to be quite common, esspecially wespe and Priest. Now havent seen any of them in over a year.
The only arty that is used is Rocket arty and light mobile arty.
Normal 105 Howitzers are used in the early game but as said, usually wont survive a game or are quickly out of range.
But SPGS have disappeared completely. I think ive seen the Wespe just once.



However, placing them far away from the frontline or at least friendly units still brings some danger for them. They are exposed to aircraft and airborne units which requires the players to dispatch some sort of guarding units that wont be able to fight elsewhere.


2. Try to find a way to pack up Howitzers and heavy AT guns onto a truck. The reason behind that is not to make them "Mobile" as a mean of tactical utility, but rather as a means of keeping them deployed where it matters. The pack up time onto trucks for howitzers can take a while. Its not important to give them the ability to quickly move arround.



That way the survival and usefullness of Howitzers relys on range rather than mobility. However in the long run they can keep up with the frontlines.

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