[BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

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MenciusMoldbug
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[BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

All the doctrines are meant to be balanced around 1v1.
In a 1v1 scenario, if for example a US player goes double snipers against you while you are PS, you have no good counter against them because the buildable sniper is only available to the other 2 PE doctrines.
To make it more fair for PS in 1v1, I suggest they should have a buildable sniper with a limit of 1. Just so there is an option to counter snipe the sniper instead of getting picked off to death.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

i think Schwimwagens are good counter to snipers... i mean; i get your point, but i wouldn't add more snipers.

in fact, i wanted all snipers in the game to lose the "rapid firing" ability, or even reduce the number of snipers per faction.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

Are you sure? I don't know from my perspective if I could counter snipers hiding behind AT Guns, HMGs, or 50cals with a shwimmwagen. And I am only talking about 1v1 games, team games there's more room to maneuver to do this but in a proper 1v1, the sniper is usually behind good support and the Shwimwaggen is rather flimsy when it comes to HP. Not to mention the RAF sniper is almost unkillable when he gets smoke and the defensive veterancy unlock (which reduces the damage he takes by 25%).

I would say 'the infantry capabilities for PS is fine' if they had a counter-sniper available to them so they don't bleed out to a kiting sniper (I mean I can run my snipers around with no use of crawling/evasive maneuvers because I know PS can't snipe me back).

Rapid fire is something I wanted to change too, mainly because it stacks with other reload and cool-down buffs like inspired assault but that would be off-topic for this thread.

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Shanks
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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Shanks »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
01 Aug 2020, 23:40
i think Schwimwagens are good counter to snipers... i mean; i get your point, but i wouldn't add more snipers.

in fact, i wanted all snipers in the game to lose the "rapid firing" ability, or even reduce the number of snipers per faction.

Good idea, but this had already been asked for a long time ago, and nobody paid attention

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Well, i think it's time for attention to be paid.

Rapid Firing ability for snipers should be no more.

@Mencius
i would be still fine with 1 sniper in Panzer Support doctrine, i'm not against it.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by kwok »

Walderschmidt wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 20:56
Why not give the G43 squads the marksman ability like British Infantry sections and be done with it?

Wald

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

I thought the reason we can't have G43 Suppressive volley fire on the PS Panzer Grenadier squad is because all the UI slots have been filled up? I don't know where the marksman ability would go because the mark target is already taking the place of the suppressive volley fire and I would really like that ability back on Pgren squads in PS doc.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Walderschmidt »

kwok wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 22:10
Walderschmidt wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 20:56
Why not give the G43 squads the marksman ability like British Infantry sections and be done with it?

Wald
And give PS the option to build non-engineer Panzergrens, so you have enough UI space for both.

Wald
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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

i also think PanzerGrenadiers should have minesweeper upgrade.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Diablo »

kwok wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 22:10
Walderschmidt wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 20:56
Why not give the G43 squads the marksman ability like British Infantry sections and be done with it?

Wald
I like this one

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Warhawks97
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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Warhawks97 »

If it would be g43 with scope, yes. But a semi rifle with no scope having a sniper ability. Nope.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by MarKr »

Warhawks97 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 18:03
If it would be g43 with scope, yes. But a semi rifle with no scope having a sniper ability. Nope.
why?
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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Warhawks97 »

MarKr wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 19:29
Warhawks97 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 18:03
If it would be g43 with scope, yes. But a semi rifle with no scope having a sniper ability. Nope.
why?
Bc why not giving them one by default?

The old Kch had scoped STG44 and could use accurate fire.
Same i think for the new Gebis and their scoped G43 but not sure though.


Weapons in BK have abilties that fit into what they are logically capable of.

Like:
The 88 mm guns have huge range and accurate long shot abilities.
LMGs have high rof and can thus use suppressive fire or other stuff.

When we now start to give semi rifles without any scope and supposed to buff a units rof and thus having abilties like "slow down" (which btw should be suppressive like in vanilla coh). So the abilties of units and weapons should actually fit into what the weapon is designed for.


If we start now giving semi rifles sniper abilties, what will be next? Accurate long shot for stubby tanks just bc we somehow feel the need for it some day?
Sniper ability for lmgs?
Suppressive fire for AT gun crews?


Dont open pandoras box bc then we can basically put whatever ability to whatever unit we want to and to any weapon we want to.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Walderschmidt »

Are you really making the argument that if we give only PE PS squads with G43 a sniper ability it will open a pandora’s box?

Fucking seriously?

Why hasn’t Tommy Squads with the sniper ability opened a pandora’s box then?

HMMMMM?

IT WON’T.

You just give the PGrens a scoped G43. Bam! Now they have a sniper ability.

Are you even capable of writing a response in under 100 words?

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Warhawks97 »

Walderschmidt wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 19:56
Are you really making the argument that if we give only PE PS squads with G43 a sniper ability it will open a pandora’s box?
yes. Even the SP opened a pandora box when it got introduced. Suddenly people wanted Maus and Black Prince and even Centurion.

So experience tells me: It would for sure.

Random stats, random abilities, random weapon ranges.....
We are at a point where weapons have similiar or same stats when they are the same, we have wepaons with logical abilities, we have weapon and unit based ranges and most importantly reload times, we have logical and realistic magazin sizes for all weapons (except tank and vehicle MG´s) and so on.


I wouldnt want to throw it all off bc suddenly everything can be completely random again.


Why hasn’t Tommy Squads with the sniper ability opened a pandora’s box then?

HMMMMM?
I would have kept it like in vanilla coh: Upgrade a scoped rifle to the squad.

But somehow its been there since the very first days of BK. At days when, as said, a lot of things were totally random. Basically everything was random there except for magazin sizes of weapons.



You just give the PGrens a scoped G43. Bam! Now they have a sniper ability.
That would work.


But if you ask me, snipers should be in every faction and doctrine. Its too much of a basic support unit like mortars or HMG´s to be doc or faction based.

Just the ammount of them and perhaps their abilties and capabilities should be tied to docs. But non should be without it.


Are you even capable of writing a response in under 100 words?
no, apparently not.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

i'm against adding sniper ability for PzGrens, however.. i wouldn't mind 1 sniper unit in Panzer Support doctrine.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by MarKr »

Warhawks97 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 19:43
Dont open pandoras box bc then we can basically put whatever ability to whatever unit we want to and to any weapon we want to.
Don't use these hyperboles just to make your case sound stronger. Giving AT guns "suppressive fire" would be bullshit but (since you always drop in the "realism factor) " are you really telling me that it is impossible to take an accurate shot with a rifle with no scope but once you add a scope to that same rifle, it suddenly is possible?

If the game balance needs it, it can be. It is not like anyone zooms in to check if the rifle has the thing with lenses on top. It's not like anyone checks if the dude shooting the marksman shot in Tommy squads is really the one with the scoped rifle.
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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Warhawks97 »

MarKr wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 20:58
Warhawks97 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 19:43
Dont open pandoras box bc then we can basically put whatever ability to whatever unit we want to and to any weapon we want to.
Don't use these hyperboles just to make your case sound stronger. Giving AT guns "suppressive fire" would be bullshit but (since you always drop in the "realism factor) " are you really telling me that it is impossible to take an accurate shot with a rifle with no scope but once you add a scope to that same rifle, it suddenly is possible?
Its not, but we could give it by default like the brits have it. I dont see why a G43 is required.


And idk if you have ever held a weapon, but with a decent scope it is a different, esspecially when focusing on something more far away.


If the game balance needs it, it can be. It is not like anyone zooms in to check if the rifle has the thing with lenses on top. It's not like anyone checks if the dude shooting the marksman shot in Tommy squads is really the one with the scoped rifle.
And so was the SP in the eyes of old devs. We had enough pandoras boxes. Someday we will really have to explain why a Stubby Tank IV cant have an accurate HE long shot ability once it upgraded skirts.


Its just at the one hand we had a hard work to standardize guns so that players knew what to expect. When we upgrade lmgs or whatever people expect something like a good weapon that deals lots of damage and suppression.

The G43 does already give the "slow down" ability. So one upgrade would provide two actually quite good abilities+ a very good new weapon. Its cost would have to go up.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Walderschmidt »

Warhawks97 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 21:28
And idk if you have ever held a weapon, but with a decent scope it is a different, esspecially when focusing on something more far away.
The average rifle was accurate from 1,000-2,000 meters. A well trained rifleman would be able to make accurate shots past 300 meters though often infantry engagements took place under 200, which is why the Germans developed the MP43 and later the StG 44 with an intermediate cartidge in the first place.

Yes - it's a lot easier to make a more accurate shot with a scope - but that doesn't mean you can't make an accurate shot with ironsights. Accuracy doesn't just come from a scope but from following the fundamentals of shooting, most important of which is the trigger pull.

Warhawks97 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 21:28
The G43 does already give the "slow down" ability. So one upgrade would provide two actually quite good abilities+ a very good new weapon. Its cost would have to go up.
So make it a second upgrade or something standard whereby each PS Pgren squad comes equippped with a G43 scoped rifle. Or maybe combine my previous idea where the player has the option to build PGren squads or a non-engineer one that comes with G43 scoped rifle.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Warhawks97 »

I think it would make it easier and easier to balance out to just give them a sniper.

Thing is, CW has one inf squad usually at the field bc everything costs a lot there.

PE (and in current TS doc in particular) can spam basic grens way easier and each squad costs less than a sniper.
In the long run, having sniper ability on each of these squads, could lead to an abuse of this ability.


Like you get 3 squads in mind-late game. Each costs 295 MP, is 7 men strong and has the G43 which is already a very good weapon and tons of abilities like nades, repair, at nades and with G43 also slow down enemie as well as sniper shot while at the same time receiving the boost from the G43 itself.

Too much potential of abuse, srsly. CW pays for its inf squad more as one pays for a sniper. In PE that would basically be quite the opposite.



You can quite literally death snipe AT squads that want to charge your TD or make a "snipe whipe" on AT guns. Its going to be a nightmare.

Or you make this ability to only target sniper. But then again, why not just give TS a sniper :roll:




So the easiest way to go and to balance would be to give it a sniper.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Diablo »

Or you just limit it to 1-2 Pzgren squads. Just like the Rocket upgrade on Hotchkiss tanks.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by CGarr »

IMO, the marksman ability should be implemented on a more global scale in BK (every doc has at least 1 unit that can do it) as a replacement for the sniper unit. I say this because the sniper is generally accepted as one of the hardest-to-balance units in BK because it will always either be ineffective or extremely obnoxious to try and play against by its very nature. A sniper's makes the game significantly less enjoyable for the opposing player, as the counters in 1v1's are pretty much limited to either countersniping or just ignoring it and trying to stomp the enemy player in while they focus on microing it. It's only true niches (HVT killing and recon) can easily be filled by the marksman ability and spotter units, respectively. Focusing on their MP bleed utility is dumb because this utility is fundamentally what makes them annoying to play against, and there isn't many counters for it since they are hard to detect without just suicide rushing.

Implementation of the marksman ability on more inf would be so much less obnoxious to deal with in terms of counterplay, as it's a single shot and spamming it would be costly, yet it would remain effective in killing individual models and the margin for error in terms of micro is greater (since a squad is more durable than a one model sniper unit), so it would be less micro-taxing and more usable for new players. Micro bleed can still be inflicted quite easily with other units (HE tanks, scout cars, pretty much any indirect-fire weapons) so it's not like some vital gameplay element is being removed. If that's really an issue, just keep snipers in the game but change them to 2-3 man squads that are just significantly more accurate than normal inf but with lower damage, allowing them to quickly chip away at a unit's health rather than just outright wiping models. The increased model count would make the squad much easier to find and counter with indirect-fire, and it would also allow the individual models to no longer have superman levels of health.

=========================================================================================================================

Here's an example of how this could be implemented without being abusable and overly obnoxious (due to limited quantity of capable units on the factions that have lower upkeep, while CW pretty much remains as-is):

US:
1. Captains get Ranger call-in squad, marksman ability comes free, with a rifle grenade upgrade option that starts with higher accuracy than the riflemen's rifle grenades. Squad has a unit-cap of 2. Costs 500-550 MP, can serve as a core inf unit for all docs, providing fire-support where needed while maintaining US's signature mobility. Models are more durable than normal rangers. Passive camo replaces ambush ability camo, UI icon is replaced by marksman shot. Satchels and special nades are replaced by the rifle grenade alternatives if the upgrade is taken.
2. AB HQ squad gets marksman ability to maintain their niche in terms of being able to field more marksman units, AB sniper call-in is removed. AB HQ squad would also become much more useful in combat wit this ability as something other than just a passive support.

PE:
1. SS squad sniper replaced by marksman ability. Model durability increased but 7th man is removed, as snipers are not as massive of a threat to their inf. I assume this would also increase the reinforce cost, which would be nice as the squad members are stupid cheap to reinforce, and currently there is a bug for PE where you can get infinite snipers by recrewing stuff with this squad, which would also probably be fixed by this change.
2. SE keeps sniper as a buildable unit to provide incentive for using that doc, as people don't seem to play it much. It'd arguably be weaker than it currently is due to the increased presence of units that can countersnipe it, but still, sniper units fit nicely in that doctrine's niche.
3. Luft officer squad can use marksman ability, but their sniper call-in would be removed. Sniper would no longer be a buildable unit on luft.

WH:
1. Blitz doc K98 stormtroopers get a marksman ability as a purchasable upgrade for 50 muni. Stormtrooper officer squad gets it free if they have UI space for it.
2. Def doc keeps sniper unit, same reasoning as SE.
3. Propaganda officer can choose to upgrade with either a radio (100 muni) that unlocks their mortar bombardment ability, or a sniper rifle for one of the guards that allows use for the marksman ability (50 muni upgrade, normal per-use price) and a slight increase in the guards' general accuracy with their rifles.

CW:
1. Inf sections maintain their marksman abilty, easy enough.
2. RAF buildable sniper turned into a 200 MP 2 man observer team that can crawl and is armed with a sten and a sniper rifle. High accuracy but similar damage to the normal rifles, as well as an actual marksman shot ability. Would mainly be used for observation and finishing off vulnerable squads.
3. Canadian Inf section gets a marksman ability if they don't already have it.

=========================================================================================================================


I already know multiple people would throw a hissy fit just reading this (nevermind if it was actually implemented), so I'm not going to bother trying to actively pushing it unless it happens to get some traction. Just wanted to say that I think this would be by far the best route for dealing with the sniper issues concerning not only PS doc, but BK mod in general.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Diablo »

CGarrs proposition has a lot going for it.

I see a little problem arising with perma-snipers remaining in two axis docs, but as far as i can see not one the allies side. To be honest, i dont think Def docs needs a special treatment and SE could possibly be compensated.
Maybe even an ability that enables a sort of sniper mode for some time, at a muni cost -- with long enough cooldown that its really a tactical decision when to use it.

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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Devilfish »

I think what makes the sniper so stupid is the fact that it's so hard to counter them because:
1. ton of hp
2. crawling ability.

Now let's focus on the crawling ability. Whenever the opponent tries to rush with inf and/or with vehicle (other than recon), sniper goes into crawl and maneuver around/back/whatever until the enemy is forced to retreat because of backup units coming up to support the sniper. This allows to play super aggressively with snipers.

So my suggestion is to remove the crawl ability of snipers. Their role is not to be in the frontline or even getting behind enemy lines. Their role is to support other units by reliably thinning enemy infantry numbers. So let them hide in cover, but no crawling.
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Re: [BETA] Panzer Support Doctrine should have a buildable sniper

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

i agree for removing crawling ability from snipers, so they should have only passive cover.

Snipers could also have the "rapid firing" ability removed.

Though, as mentioned before.. i'm not for adding sniper-shot ability for any unit. Neither do i support removing snipers from the game...

And i would be happy to see 1 sniper in Panzer Support doctrine.

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