Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

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CGarr
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Joined: 16 Apr 2018, 21:39

Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by CGarr »

This is going to be a long one for a relatively simple request, but I'd rather make my reasoning clear from the start so that people can take all of my arguments into account before replying, as if people are unclear on what I mean, their replies might skew towards the status quo even if they end up agreeing with me. The proposal section details my exact initial proposal (who would've guessed?). The 4 paragraphs in the reasoning section underline why I am making this suggestion, and why I think you should consider supporting it, if you already agree with my suggestion then don't feel pressed to read it, as I just underline a bunch of points that are probably well known but simply glossed over due to focus on other aspects of the game like doctrine restructuring or redesign.

:!: --------------------- Initial Proposal -------------------------- :!:
Please read through all of these 4 points before responding.

1. Make fallschrimjagers, gebirgsjagers, 101st AB squads, barracks rangers, and stormtroopers all 0 CP units, maintain doctrinal choice requirements (in other words, once you pick airborne, luft, inf, or blitz, you immediately have access to whichever one of these 4 units is in your doc, assuming tech requirements are met).

2. Tech requirements in place of the CP to put them on par with their 0CP counterparts (combat engineers, grens, etc). For example, make the 101st and ranger squads available after WSC, make the storms available after krieg barracks, make the luft inf available in kampfgruppe kompanie(inf building) after logistik kompanie (light vehicle building) is built.

3. Set tech requirements for ranger weapon upgrades (1919/bazooka after motor pool or something similar) if they aren't in place already.

4. Make falls, gebirgs, and 101st buildable in the inf building for their respective factions, the same way other basic "elite" inf are.

5. Tie their unique abilities to the CP slot that would've originally unlocked them as a buildable unit. Specifically, restrict parachute call-in for luft and AB inf to their original 2CP unlocks, restrict stormtrooper infiltration to their original 2 cp unlock, and restrict recoilless rifles, FG42's, and Johnsons to their original 2 CP unlock. Reinforcement via parachute can stay for falls and 101st at 0CP, as it would balance out their original combat effectiveness spiking a bit later than the other squads since their top tier weapons would be behind that 2CP restriction still.

Note: for suggestion 2, different tech requirements might be better, I was just trying to think of a basic one for each off the top of my head that would be similar in timing to when grens are available, as all 5 of those units are comparable to grens before you start spending CP on upgrading them.

:!: ------------------------------------------------------------------ :!:


:geek: -------------------------- Reasoning -------------------------- :geek:
Recently, RoyalCompanion posted a thread ( viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3627 ) outlining discrepencies between factions with regards to what is available at different stages of the game, with 2 of his main points being about basic "elite" inf specifically (grens and rangers, although I would consider the un-upgraded long range stormtroopers, 101st airborne squads, US/CW combat engineers, canadian inf, basic commandos, PE barracks squads, and even un-upgraded fallschrimjagers/gebirgs all in this same tier). This got me thinking, and I realized these units are all pretty unique and they all are pretty much on even footing until you bring weapon upgrades into account. I'd even argue that as they all climb in veterancy, they're still well balanced against eachother and positioning/tactics are generally the determining factor for who wins against who between these units. With this being the case, I don't really see the reason for some to be available without CP while others are arbitrarily locked behind a CP unlock despite not really becoming super strong until you spend CP going down their upgrade trees anyways and I really don't see the reason for a doctrine to not have basic "elite" inf as an option (propaganda doc specifically, as panzer support doc's PG's basically became cheap grens).

Take a 101st squad or fallscrhimjagers (pretend they came out of barracks instead of parachuting in) for example: pretty average survivability, decent close range firepower but they're not great at long range until you spend muni on them, neither spawns with AT equpped (they pick it up from a box) but both have the option to pay muni for it. They're arguably almost identical in function/effectiveness (for some reason falls don't have fire-up or a satchel charge, 101st are slightly weaker but cheaper) to grens, with the only big differences being that grens specialize in long range by default and upgrade to close range weapons where as the other 2 start with CQB loadouts and get airborne reinforcements to make up for their need to close distance to be effective. Assuming we can agree on these units being pretty similar with very minor differences, why should the 101st and falls cost 2 cp while the grens dont cost any CP? They're all staple units to the doctrines/factions that they are on, and their presence in itself doesn't dictate any different of a response than grens' presence would. This comparison can be made for basic rangers, long-range stormtroopers, gebirgs, and canadian inf as well (although the CW basic "elite" inf should really get more access to ranged AT of some kind), yet the first 3 of this second group also cost 2CP for no reason.

One might argue that it is a matter of doctrine themes/focuses, but even that argument falls flat since you could easily say that if these squads are all quite close in terms of general performance, it doesn't make sense for the allied armor doctrines (US armor and royal engineers) to get their basic "elite" inf right away while the inf focused docs have to spend 2 CP on theirs. As for balance, the squads in this category that cost 0 CP all come out at the light vehicle stage of the game, and every faction has pretty similar options at this stage of the game in terms of vehicles and support squads, so the main difference is what inf are available (ironically, some of the inf-centered docs don't get their basic "elite" inf at this stage without dedicating their first 2 CP to it, but the armor focused docs do despite the differences in performance for all these squads being negligible).

US armor doc, PE, and CW all demonstrate that having basic "elite" inf be 0 CP doesn't really hurt the game, it just changes the meta for non-elite infantry like riflemen, volks, sappers, vsturms, and panzergrens by pushing them into filler/support roles. I would even argue that this is a good thing, as I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that using stormtroopers and rangers as your main fighting force is more fun than using riflemen and volks, with the latter being more useful when you're bleeding a lot of MP and need to just fill in the lines or make suicide rushes under heavy arty fire as a means of scouting/capping. I think when I first came to BK (or if I just never played the beta), I probably wouldn't have had this stance since earlier versions of these elite squads were just downright stupid in how strong they were relative to normal inf. Nowadays, though, I think all the elite inf on the beta has been brought down to reasonable levels in terms of their initial stats, with their power-spikes mainly coming through CP unlocks for either support abilities (canadian inf spotting, luft/AB command units) or direct boosts to their performance (all US doctrinal combat inf, CW combat engineers, grens/storms, luft inf).

:geek: ------------------------------------------------------------------ :geek:

:?: ------------------------- Pictures ----------------------------- :?:
barracks UI.png
barracks UI.png (58.83 KiB) Viewed 179 times
101st in barracks

AB tree UI.png
CP unlock changes (air)
#1: 2CP, unlocks 101st squad parachute call-in (the one that shows up by the mini-map) at same price as current. Also unlocks Johnson lmg and recoilless rifle upgrade.

barracks UI2.png
barracks UI2.png (82.59 KiB) Viewed 179 times
luft inf in kampfgruppe kompanie

Luft tree UI.png
CP unlock changes (luft)
#1: 2CP, unlocks the fallschrimjager parachute call-in (the one that is currently the only way to spawn them) at same price. Also unlocks FG42 upgrade.
#2: 1CP, unlocks scoped rifle upgrade and faust ability for gebirgs.

BKdoc tree UI.png
CP unlock changes (blitz)
#1: 2CP, unlocks urban assault squad and allows for infiltration of these squads (spawning from empty ambient buildings).


:?: ----------------------------------------------------------------- :?:

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by mofetagalactica »

I really like this, but it will never be implemented since it dosn't go for any of the mod owners.

Walderschmidt
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Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 12:42

Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by Walderschmidt »

Just want to go on record and say I really like this idea. Rangers aren't necessarily worth it if you have to devote 4 CP alone to unlock them. And same with Falls + Gebirgs. Storms.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

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CGarr
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Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by CGarr »

mofetagalactica wrote:
22 May 2020, 14:41
I really like this, but it will never be implemented since it dosn't go for any of the mod owners.
Not sure what you mean, are you saying it wont goo because I didn't publicly attack the mod owners or because it doesn't align with their views? I'll let him post his own opinion, but Kwok seemed to like it less than a minute after getting the link. Not sure about the rest, but I''d assume if enough people are on board and the idea isn't terrible or too difficult to implement, they'd probably take it into consideration. I mean we've pushed much bigger changes through that were admittedly pretty poorly thought out due to heavily differing opinions. On top of that, (at least as far as I can tell) this wouldn't a huge change in terms of the labor involved or units affected, as the only big difference would be your first 2 CP are freed up to use on something other than getting your doctrine's staple infantry (not the strongest inf, just the general purpose ones that are a bit less squishy than filler squads like riflemen and volks). The timing difference for when these units come out wouldn't be huge, it'd be comparable to someone getting the unit as their first unlock or choosing one of the doctrines that gets their staple inf for 0CP (US armor combat engineers, RAF commandos, WH def doc grens, PE heavy assault grens). Additionally, it affects commonly used doctrines on every faction so it isn't like anyone is getting left behind.

MenciusMoldbug
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017, 12:57

Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

This idea has my support, it's easy to counter many of the 'elite' units when you know their weaknesses anyway (For example rangers have elite_armor and so they have 100% guaranteed snipe chances against them even when they are retreating, so you can pop quick-fire on snipers to kill them rapidly and not miss a shot).

For airborne, I actually wanted an airborne ground team like they had it in the VCoH Normandy campaign that would technically be airborne but can't paradrop reinforce wherever they want. Instead they come with Garands instead of carbines and are dedicated anti-infantry squad. I wanted it to be like pathfinders in COH 2 for their airborne doctrine but I haven't really put much thought into it. Like I wanted to originally add a pathfinder squad where the Rangers which would be 4 man, binoculars, good detection range unit that comes with ranger garands. But again, haven't put much thought into it as I think airborne doctrine needs a re-work in the CP teching first before adding new stuff to them.

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CGarr
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Joined: 16 Apr 2018, 21:39

Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by CGarr »

MenciusMoldbug wrote:
22 May 2020, 21:15
This idea has my support, it's easy to counter many of the 'elite' units when you know their weaknesses anyway (For example rangers have elite_armor and so they have 100% guaranteed snipe chances against them even when they are retreating, so you can pop quick-fire on snipers to kill them rapidly and not miss a shot).

For airborne, I actually wanted an airborne ground team like they had it in the VCoH Normandy campaign that would technically be airborne but can't paradrop reinforce wherever they want. Instead they come with Garands instead of carbines and are dedicated anti-infantry squad. I wanted it to be like pathfinders in COH 2 for their airborne doctrine but I haven't really put much thought into it. Like I wanted to originally add a pathfinder squad where the Rangers which would be 4 man, binoculars, good detection range unit that comes with ranger garands. But again, haven't put much thought into it as I think airborne doctrine needs a re-work in the CP teching first before adding new stuff to them.
Agreed, I was posting this because the idea is fresh in my head but doctrine reworks should take 100% priority. I really like the pathfinders idea but I'd settle for just 101st squad until they can get properly implemented. Might be worth a post on its own, was planning on doing one for a normal KCH squad too since you brought up an officer version in another thread.

kwok
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Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by kwok »

Fuck. Even I like this idea.... get more people to accept that there will likely be huge balance issues with this then yeah we can see what we can do to make it happen.

I don't know how other devs feel. My opinion means nothing.

Walderschmidt
Posts: 391
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 12:42

Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by Walderschmidt »

kwok wrote:
23 May 2020, 00:13
Fuck. Even I like this idea.... get more people to accept that there will likely be huge balance issues with this then yeah we can see what we can do to make it happen.

I don't know how other devs feel. My opinion means nothing.
pls explain

your opinion means something to me

W
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

I dont like this idea, it will lead to even more strict games and war of numbers.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

Walderschmidt
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Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 12:42

Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by Walderschmidt »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
23 May 2020, 09:22
I dont like this idea, it will lead to even more strict games and war of numbers.
Could you explain how/why?

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

The way most of people tend to use their basic units and elite (not only offmap called forces) is giving me idea that it wont work, but only appear to become another faster and easier way for blobbing.

More to say, even more forcing players to pick Doctrines right on is bad in my eyes. Again, more people play one same strat over and over and concepts like this only patronising that.
Taking away CP system means specifically deny fact of how and why people and some games develop. It's not just about Teching up and resourses, but proper timing and what you are meant to have and when, based from your skills and how game was going untill the required CP tech up time.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Mantis
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Re: Elite Inf Availability (CP vs no CP)

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