Suggestions for AI behavior

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Medic Truck
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Medic Truck » 17 Jun 2017, 02:21

Hi Panzerblitz1

Literally, I got my ass kicked playing against the German Blitzkreig doctrine as USA Infantry. How much bonus in resources and other benefits do Expert AIs get? Is there a detail bonus multipliers?

Damn I fought hard but couldn't hold off the blitz.

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 17 Jun 2017, 05:00

Start easy mode.
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out5488
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby out5488 » 21 Jun 2017, 16:04

Medic Truck wrote:Hi Panzerblitz1

Literally, I got my ass kicked playing against the German Blitzkreig doctrine as USA Infantry. How much bonus in resources and other benefits do Expert AIs get? Is there a detail bonus multipliers?

Damn I fought hard but couldn't hold off the blitz.


Blitzkreig doctrine AI spam lots of Panzer III N and very few Tiger I, basically the counter strategy is use long barrel gun armored vechicle and AT.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 21 Jun 2017, 16:38

All is depending of the map you play, the a.i. will choose the best unit depending of his resources, if you want to see tigers, you need bigger maps with lots of fuel points.
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby omfgitsrhod » 24 Jun 2017, 06:29

Hello Markr & Panzerblitz1!!!

One of the best mods ever been made in Company of Heroes! But can you guys also make the AI use either the reward units or the default ones randomly? I guess that would be a great feature as well! Thanks!

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Medic Truck » 25 Jun 2017, 20:25

Yeah. Can AI be made a bit smarter like not lamely come where you aren't but once it sees your units in a particular area, sends in the counters? Or, just avoiding units only when they encounter our units and not just when there is an empty passage to your base.

Sometimes, it is annoying to see a tank always not coming to the ATs coz they see it all. Lol. It is sometimes fun to play vs AI.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Michael_Z_Freeman » 15 Jul 2017, 18:10

So, I don't know if AI coding goes this deep but it's too easy to destroy the AI base. I don't play much with human players but I assume advanced players take a little time to cover base defence, at least building a couple of slit tranches when there's no cover available. It's always difficult even for human players when the enemy reaches ur base as usually that's when resource income has already dropped too low or nothing would be that near the base. But I've held off base attacks by the AI for a surprising amount of time before and even pushed back from the brink. But when it comes to encroaching on the AI enemy base they don't seem to know what to do; they continue with trying to send everything out to capture resources points or even worse sit around waiting to be annihilated by waves of artillery !

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Jalis
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 16 Jul 2017, 07:36

djbarney wrote:But when it comes to encroaching on the AI enemy base they don't seem to know what to do; they continue with trying to send everything out to capture resources points or even worse sit around waiting to be annihilated by waves of artillery !


It is true, basically AI is not a defender. It usually dont defend its base very well. AI is mostly dedicated to attack, and to support offensive, it try to secure ressources.

The sitting around behaviour, and be annhiliated by wave of artillery is typical from AI defending a destroyed HQ. I admit AI is here all white or all black. It is usually reckless attack, except when a HQ is destroyed ; in last situation it is stupid packing around the HQ. I even saw sometime, so much units that engineers were unable to reach the destroyed HQ to repair it.

Stupid packing defense around destroyed HQ is something I wasn't able to solve.

Trench ; it is probably possible to make AI built it. Frankly I never tried it, simply because AI would probably use it randomly anyway. It would be just like building. Units will go on then exit without more reasons it entered. Over all, I doubt it can be possible to make AI build trench ; if there is no cover, and makes AI find strategic position, and build it if AI is not on a successful offensive, and, and, and. Frankly there is simply too much parameters for AI can manage it wisely.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Michael_Z_Freeman » 16 Jul 2017, 13:13

Jalis wrote:
djbarney wrote:But when it comes to encroaching on the AI enemy base they don't seem to know what to do; they continue with trying to send everything out to capture resources points or even worse sit around waiting to be annihilated by waves of artillery !


It is true, basically AI is not a defender. It usually dont defend its base very well. AI is mostly dedicated to attack ...


Right. It's a known problem, Thanks for trying to fix it ! Maybe a solution will present itself at some point. Otherwise I still find the AI in this mod the best in any game out there :mrgreen:

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 16 Jul 2017, 18:11

djbarney wrote: Otherwise I still find the AI in this mod the best in any game out there :mrgreen:


It is really perhaps the worst, simply because there is no understanding how AI really works. If there is some good things in BK AI, it is due to chance. It is why you will never see AI field a some very big cat, and very, very, rarely some others. If you play more likely germans ingame, try to remember last time you have see AI field a pershing ace or a Jackson. Add to this AI at bk have a inept ressources management, accumulating waste and misuse.

To honestly excuse BK, we can remember it is a pure dedicated pvp mod. Ai have always been negleted, because it is useless for the mod purpose.

For the thanks for trying fix it, it is not deserved. I share observations, not solutions.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Medic Truck » 16 Jul 2017, 19:16

Hi Jalis,

Whatever the current state of the AI, it is very enjoyable already. Just some tweaks here and there and it will be great for those wanting to use AI in the Skirmishes.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Michael_Z_Freeman » 17 Jul 2017, 12:50

I was comparing with AI in Battlefield 2 which is functional (AI can use most vehicles and assets) but very basic tactically as the AI just sends in suicide wave after suicide wave in order to capture a point. At least here (as noted above) the AI will retreat once unit power is below a certain percentage. Also I just had a game where the AI were absolutely plastering me with Stuka strikes which was quite amusing. But I guess this can all seem different from a developer perspective.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 17 Jul 2017, 13:08

The a.i. has been tweaked, and i could say the a.i. Perform well, its not perfect for sure, and will never be, but depending of which map you're going to use, the a.i. Will be more or less efficient, our a.i. In some conditions can even flank units, and use special abilities, so...its not bad at all, our a.i. Is even better than bk used to be couple years ago.
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 17 Jul 2017, 19:37

Panzerblitz1 wrote: a.i. In some conditions can even flank units, and use special abilities.


Ai, not our AI. We both know it is a game feature, not a bk mod tweak. Anyway Medic truck is right, compstomp player is usually a quiet community, and dont cry every days of the year. Multi coop concern is probably desync, but it is not something special to bk, nor something that can be easily solved. Some years ago a member, Galatea, IIRC, was sorry BK didn't made minimal efforts to catch this population massively. On his opinion it would have need little work, and probably attract a part of these players to bk pvp later.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 17 Jul 2017, 20:22

Jalis wrote:
Panzerblitz1 wrote: a.i. In some conditions can even flank units, and use special abilities.


Ai, not our AI. We both know it is a game feature, not a bk mod tweak. Anyway Medic truck is right, compstomp player is usually a quiet community, and dont cry every days of the year. Multi coop concern is probably desync, but it is not something special to bk, nor something that can be easily solved. Some years ago a member, Galatea, IIRC, was sorry BK didn't made minimal efforts to catch this population massively. On his opinion it would have need little work, and probably attract a part of these players to bk pvp later.


I beg you pardon? Our a.i., We improved and added a new a.i. In bk sir, we will surely add more tweaks to it in the future, but its surely not the coh original a.i.
You might want to check the v4.9.6 beta and the 4.9.7 changelog friend.
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 17 Jul 2017, 21:19

Why do you dodge ? You said OUR ai can even flank units. I reply, no it is a basic coh feature, not a bk addition. Bk AI now try to capture and secure early, yes, but it have nothing to do with flanking units.

I think I will make a little movie on airplane bombing accuracy, it will be as off topic than securing ressource is to flanking units.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 17 Jul 2017, 21:41

Jalis wrote:Why do you dodge ? You said OUR ai can even flank units. I reply, no it is a basic coh feature, not a bk addition. Bk AI now try to capture and secure early, yes, but it have nothing to do with flanking units.

I think I will make a little movie on airplane bombing accuracy, it will be as off topic than securing ressource is to flanking units.


You are telling me that the vcoh a.i. Was gathering units, with combined forced and was able to flank, Where on earth? Im not dodging anything here, you are very affirmative towards me (limit treating me a lier) on something you don't know, sorry to know a bit better on what we are actually do in bk... play vcoh then you will notice that there is no flanking, no cover, no combined forces etc...etc... to flank you need to code, and those codes weren't in the original game, so... please stop acting like you know better here, its just not the case.
You want to try? Very simple, remove all a.i. Files from bk mod and you will get vcoh a.i. Then you will see if your units are reacting that good in game...
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 18 Jul 2017, 01:38

Wo, you switched on aggressive mode. There is a big difference between I cant believe you, and you are a fucking lier.

For bk 4.96 and 4.98 I tested it, on large map with out river, bridge or bottle neck (unlike maps lot of solo players like). If I felt AI behaivour changed toward capture and securing ressource I didn't noticed anything special about flanking. Flanking is something AI can do, but it is due to due, and mostly depend on the map configuration and circumstances. So I was unlikely duting my test, or you still have a margin for enhancement for this feature. At start I was simply thinking you exaggerated. Hard to blame me, exaggerating news feature is something you do rather often.

For sure you know far better than me what is happen in bk team, but for AI features it is the inverse. The day it will change I will know it, simply because it will be visible ingame.

I took my own joke seriously. a 3 mn off topic bonus track. You will scuse, I made it on a old computer, it lag for time to time.

https://youtu.be/gCqMlm0F-ZQ

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 18 Jul 2017, 12:31

I don't get your video but ok...

Coming back to the subject, Im not feeling full of exaggeration when a dude knows better than us by saying false informations on the work who has been done, or pretend to know better...

Did you noticed that now some forces who are combined generally with infantry + mg squad and sometimes mortars or light vehicles can gather in a spot of the map in stand-by, lets called them troops groupment n°1, some others squads is attacking directly your troops frontally, lets called them troops groupment n°2, when you reach the sight of the first units of troops n°1 when engaging and fighting troops n°2 they will start to move towards you in a flanking manoeuver with the right support units to support troops n°2, Or they will lock the position for a while then start to move towards you, do i exaggerate again?

why flanking manoeuver? Because they work as groups and will be always positionned far right or far left from the main nearest combats troops n°2 to "flank" your units, such thing does not exist in vcoh, in vcoh they work in single units, if they end up in a lucky flank its because they are just around close to your troops, they will never wait or come with complete combined groups to do max damage on your troops, yes one vehicle, or one squad will come, but nothing compare of bk will do to you now.

If you have a spotter its not that lethal as you'll see them somewhere, if you don't have a spotter, you will feel it on your main engaged squad...
This is the result of a.i. Work, and not something who's coming from thin air or built in vcoh, in vcoh the a.i. Produce in waves and mostly all in the same directions without logic, yes sometimes some troops could take another path and end up "flanking" but it is pure a.i. Luck depending which map path will be used, this is not flanking, its pure luck, and you will never see mixed forces with logical support in there, they will come at you the same stupid way others will do, yes bk will "even flank you".

Do you have new informations we don't know? Please share it with us because if we can improve bk a.i. For the sake of better a.i. Gameplay im ALL for it.

This is the results of Martin Steinke excellent work on the a.i., and yes i do agree like i said more up it will be more or less efficient depending of maps configurations, in the a.i. World you can't control everything and its not an exact science unfortunately.

If you're still not convinced, i know you won't be anyway, so take a look of what he actually did with the a.i. in one of his a.i. video... this one was mainly for defences, you can check others https://youtu.be/UJWJAj0KLp8 can't be more demonstrative regarding bk a.i. rework which is not our main priority as we are a pvp mod, but still bk a.i. Ain't bad at all ;)
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Michael_Z_Freeman » 18 Jul 2017, 15:20

I put this here as I'm noticing things in light of this thread. They can either be improved or they can't. I don't make any demands here just could be some inspiration for the devs 8-)

Enemy AI Tiger Tank stays in base while it's under full attack by me with artillery. I assume it's sitting there waiting to be repaired by engineers as just before this a spanner symbol flashed above the tank.

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As I bought tanks nearer they must have come out of "fog of war" and the Tiger sprang into action !

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If nothing can be done about this then fine. It's just an observation.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 18 Jul 2017, 15:27

Jalis wrote:It is really perhaps the worst, simply because there is no understanding how AI really works. If there is some good things in BK AI, it is due to chance. It is why you will never see AI field a some very big cat


You're again pretty sure of your statement Jalis, if you have better a.i. Knowledge as you proudly said, you will know that if your a.i. Settings are well made and smart, there will be more "chance" that your a.i. Will do what it is intended to do, good things in bk are not only due by "chance", now im certain you really don't know poop how a.i. is working, to create that chance to have a better a.i. You need to build it with some hard work behind.

Oh...by the way, i see a big a.i. cat... in this picture, how shocking for something who supposed never ever happening in bk... wrong again :D and i see a lot of a.i. big cats actually in my testing games versus a.i., did you mess with your a.i. ? It would explain a lot of things here...

In the a.i. Everything can be improved, scar ai, squad ai, build lib files etc...etc... but it demand a lot of times, many hours to test few new a.i. Settings, and it need a very skilled coder who knows what he is doing, working with a dedicated a.i. bug tracker software ( mostly his creation), will see in the future, we have more important things to do at the moment, we are pretty happy how our a.i. Is reacting right now.
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 18 Jul 2017, 16:24

It is a long time I have a better AI, but I think the only one aware here, is Tiger1996, or at least had some hints about it.

Tiger in the picture ; it is not really a very big cat in my standard, just a big cat. KT is, or JT, it includes pershing aces or super pershing.

I feel not in obligation to show anything, and certainly not to explain what to do and how to do it.
I m not hostile despite what you could think, but I have no reason to work for you (ou pour le roi de Prusse).

Now combined units and flanking attack. I have to admit I m admiration for the technical mastering. However I feel it like a waste of talent. It is imo not adapted, if not counter productive. Now, just reply I say that because I jealous, and continue this way.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 18 Jul 2017, 16:29

Well bk team including myself work for others and that for many many years now, its quite different, if you have a better a.i. Good for you, i hope its working great with bk, from my side, working for a better a.i. Isn't a waiste of talent, but its my own opinion, Im not freely hostile either here, just don't make inaccurate affirmations regarding the work who has been done because its really pissing me off, first: its really unfair for the people who broke their ass working hours on it to make something cool for us, second: stop missleading players here spreading false infos or statements, and i will be all cool and mellow.

Regarding the very big cats like jagdtiger, SP, King tiger etc... they can be produced by the a.i. BUT the a.i. Will need to blow a lot or resources in order to do that, 1500 or 2000 points is a big deal for the a.i. If he want to maintain combat troops on field, especially on small maps, we could do that by cutting or reducing the mid prod units, but it won't be really fun for players as the mid prod units are the main and cheaper assault troops for the a.i. to keep the good fight, it will be very lame to have resources spent for one sdkfz then all the rest for a jagdtiger call instead of having plenty of infantry, at guns and good mediums armor, we also could scar code to call those units, but again, the gameplay and resources will not be optimal for the a.i. To continue fighting with some kind of efficiencies, the big units prices don't changes even for the a.i. thats why you don't see very big units in single a.i. plays, its to preserve more usefull resources for cheaper units in game to keep the a.i. Fights more challenging against humans.
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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Jalis » 19 Jul 2017, 04:31

There is no offense to Martin, so far, more likely admiration like said earlier. It is effort goal/usefulness which lets me perplex. I wasnt able to see flanking combined attacked, ingame, or wasnt able to make the difference with usual AI behaviour. There is no misleading attempt to others, I was myself misleaded by my ingame experience. I even dont know what it would have been if I was like many others players, who love camping on bridge maps like achelous river.

For the last part of you answer, I made a screen shot, and will keep it if you permit it. Roughly if I understand correctly, when bk AI was coded, it was intended, or perhaps wished, BK AI dont field super heavy, in order to keep AI challenging.

PS ; I confirm that BK AI under exception circumstance can field JT and KT. For other Aces, proto or super heavy I never had evidences.

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Re: Suggestions for AI behavior

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 19 Jul 2017, 13:29

Yes, for exemple, in the a.i. building library you can set how many times you want to see one particular unit in game, how often during the game, set it for 2 appearence only in game, or you can set to it 0 and completely denied the a.i to produce it etc...etc... all units can be set, tweaked, after its logical to what you need and want to see in your mod, by doing that you will force the a.i. to play randomly ( this could be called chance or luck if not scar coded ) with your settings, pretty much to force him to use your settings, and what you want to see in your game, this is the easy part...

The a.i. Will do and follow precisely what you ask him to do for a period of time, between 8 to 10mn iirc, then take over and use randomly your settings, again except the scar codes, scar is pretty much a scenario that you are building for your game, and the a.i. will always take in count scar codes first.

Like i said, you need someone who know his job, otherwise you will have big troubles playing your mod, simple a.i. Files can be tweaked, scar coding forget about it, its a big job, a lot of testings ( hours/days ) with a dedicated a.i. Bug tracker and sometimes little reconnaissance ;)
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